Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)

[Crede777]

Honestly, I'd like for Jarmo to not make any big moves for the time being. Not because, as some of you assert, he's about to be fired and shouldn't have much of a say in the roster.

Instead, I'd just like for there to be some consistency in the roster and coaching. I think a lot of the current issues stem from new players trying to develop chemistry and a new coaching system. Stop changing out big parts and let them play together under Vincent for a while.

 

[Marioesque]

Honestly, I'd like for Jarmo to not make any big moves for the time being. Not because, as some of you assert, he's about to be fired and shouldn't have much of a say in the roster.

Instead, I'd just like for there to be some consistency in the roster and coaching. I think a lot of the current issues stem from new players trying to develop chemistry and a new coaching system. Stop changing out big parts and let them play together under Vincent for a while.

Glad to hear a reasonable take

 

[DustyDangler]

Tpyo fixxed.

Probably shouldn't have made me guffaw out loud but...well played.

 

[MissADD]

Yeah I think provy might be the only one he would actually "shop", I just don't think we have the long term cap space to give him what I would imagine he's going to demand in FA.

He might not even be shopping him yet. Remember he still under contract next season, so if the offers aren't there, you can roll the dice and try again next year.

 

[Farmboy Patty]

The way I see it, Laine fans who are only here because the Jackets are the team he's currently under contract with should be siding with Jackets fans who'd like to see Laine traded. OK maybe you feel like that makes Patty look bad, but it would probably be the best thing for the player at this juncture.

Slander. It’s ridiculous to make such a broad statement of people who watch the games where he is absent. Being a fan of a player doesn’t take away anything from rooting for the team that he is on. That’s really an insult against people like me who love the game and create an affection for the team.

I’ve rooted for Winnipeg since Selanne played there, and was ecstatic when they got a team again. It was a fluke that one of my favorite players got drafted there. I have no connection to Columbus, but I’m a fan. Could you consider having a broader opinion about fans about a player and teams in the league?

We all love hockey, but we are all not local fans. A large portion of fans are all across the pond you know…

 

[majormajor]

Slander. It’s ridiculous to make such a broad statement of people who watch the games where he is absent. Being a fan of a player doesn’t take away anything from rooting for the team that he is on. That’s really an insult against people like me who love the game and create an affection for the team.

I’ve rooted for Winnipeg since Selanne played there, and was ecstatic when they got a team again. It was a fluke that one of my favorite players got drafted there. I have no connection to Columbus, but I’m a fan. Could you consider having a broader opinion about fans about a player and teams in the league?

We all love hockey, but we are all not local fans. A large portion of fans are all across the pond you know…

I think the comment was meant to be more about what is best for Laine, not about whether you can be a fan of the Jackets. We take all comers here.

Like if you only started watching Jackets games because of Laine, well you can still be a fan after Laine gets moved, if that happens. And you might come to think that it would be a good move for Laine. It's kind of like when your friends get a divorce and you end up friends with both new families. Why not?

Personally I'll be rooting for Laine wherever he goes.

 

[NotCommitted]

The way I see it, Laine fans who are only here because the Jackets are the team he's currently under contract with should be siding with Jackets fans who'd like to see Laine traded. OK maybe you feel like that makes Patty look bad, but it would probably be the best thing for the player at this juncture.

I came here for Laine which has never been any secret but I feel like this comment shows a lack of perspective I didn't really expect from you. I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed

Farmboy Patty summed it up pretty well, it's like Laine is in the "in" for following the team but I guarantee you no one would watch CBJ games starting at 2am to 5am in their time zone if they were following the team *only* because of Laine, especially when he's injured long term, which seems to be about 50% of the time...

I doubt I'll ever reach the levels of dedication and commitment of real diehard CBJ fans but to me that's ok and while I "came here" to check it out because of Laine I stayed because the fanbase is great and the CBJ boards are actually very even keeled and generally positive and with good quality discussion, which really is high up on my checklist. Like the amount of negativity last few years is nothing taking into account how much the team has struggled. Also the userbase is large enough to keep the board active but not so large to become a full time job trying to keep up, another plus in my book.

Also the welcome was great and I've never really had people use the "you're only here because of Laine" card against me. It's not much fun trying to discuss things when anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion (especially if it's even remotely related to Laine) instantly tries to discredit it because "you're not a real fan" and "don't care for the team" and "care only about Laine" etc.

For me, for strictly selfish reasons Laine trade would be really undesirable. I really like it here and despite the lack of success and the team being mostly crap and Laine being injured all the time, I think I've had the most fun watching NHL hockey ever with CBJ. But honestly I don't know if I could keep it up, the last time I tried to stick with a team with no "my guy" in it, I started drifting out during the first season of that, barely watched the 2nd and then didn't follow NHL much at all for like 5 years. I know that doesn't exactly rise my stock as a good and proper CBJ fan but it's what it is and even though because of my hours I can watch quite a lot of games, 2-6am is not exactly prime time

 

[Marioesque]

Slander. It’s ridiculous to make such a broad statement of people who watch the games where he is absent. Being a fan of a player doesn’t take away anything from rooting for the team that he is on. That’s really an insult against people like me who love the game and create an affection for the team.

I’ve rooted for Winnipeg since Selanne played there, and was ecstatic when they got a team again. It was a fluke that one of my favorite players got drafted there. I have no connection to Columbus, but I’m a fan. Could you consider having a broader opinion about fans about a player and teams in the league?

We all love hockey, but we are all not local fans. A large portion of fans are all across the pond you know…

Almost like the more "local " opinion is better, more informed and respected. As if it's a problem of nationality etc.

It's NOT a handicap in these discussions to know more about Laine’s career than a local fan might feel about their limited exposure to him. Less exposure, less data, worse analysis. Capiche?

People who have seen more than just CBJ Laine are not going to be worse sources of information than those with a very limited view.

 

[VT]

Honestly. According insiders Columbus Blue Jackets are willing to listen to trade offers for Laine every season. So I'm not surprised that nothing has changed in this. Rather, I think potential suitors would want to take advantage of his current price.

Besides, let's not forget that Patrik has M-NTC. And if I may guess, the 10 teams where he wouldn't to play are: Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton, Arizona, Nashville, Minnesota, Islanders (Lamoriello), Buffalo, Ottawa. I don't know the tenth.

Toronto and Winnipeg may not be on the list, they won't take him anyway. San José and Anaheim are nice places so why not?

That's why number of buyers is pretty low, as those teams he would agree to either don't want him/don't have cap space/would be a bad offer. And I'm not sure a trade between three teams would change that.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

My apologies. The comment apparently was poorly worded. There was a scenario I found interesting is all. Believe me or not, there was no ill will intended.

 

[Marioesque]

I think the comment was meant to be more about what is best for Laine, not about whether you can be a fan of the Jackets. We take all comers here.

Like if you only started watching Jackets games because of Laine, well you can still be a fan after Laine gets moved, if that happens. And you might come to think that it would be a good move for Laine. It's kind of like when your friends get a divorce and you end up friends with both new families. Why not?

Personally I'll be rooting for Laine wherever he goes.

For me it's like, why not with this team?

He plays well with everyone in this team I think.

Just use him as PP main weapon, play him in 1st line role and he'll thrive. He'll win games for the team.

He has a very specific tool over all others and if you're a coach you should always use it to your advantage. Maximize the use of it.

This current team is already showing ability of hanging with the top teams. When Laine is healthy, he makes the difference in those games and team wins more.

 

[Farmboy Patty]

My apologies. The comment apparently was poorly worded. There was a scenario I found interesting is all. Believe me or not, there was no ill will intended.

My apologies to you as well. I just got triggered by the notion that people like me stay up all the night to watch the games and hoping for the team that we root for to succeed. With or without Laine playing. I’ve had several bags under my eyes during these excruciating seasons when he’s been on the team It’s all good. The CBJ will be a force to reckon in a couple of years, with or without Laine in the lineup.

 

[majormajor]

For me it's like, why not with this team?

He plays well with everyone in this team I think.

Just use him as PP main weapon, play him in 1st line role and he'll thrive. He'll win games for the team.

He has a very specific tool over all others and if you're a coach you should always use it to your advantage. Maximize the use of it.

This current team is already showing ability of hanging with the top teams. When Laine is healthy, he makes the difference in those games and team wins more.

If we knew what we'd be getting from Laine each game it would certainly be easier to do that.

One difficulty is that what we want for Laine is also the opportunity we want for many other players.

Don't we want 1st line and PP time for Marchenko?

For Chinakhov?

For Fantilli?

For Gaudreau?

We want all of them to get going. Everyone needs help.

All four of those guys belong on the PP halfwall, with Marchenko and Gaudreau both preferring to play the same left side spot as Laine. I understand that Laine's high end is the highest but he's currently the lowest, for instance only 1 PP point through 18 games for him. We're taking away PP time for the younger guys to give to Laine, who is currently performing worse than them.

That's the lineup construction argument for moving Laine.

You've also got the playstyle argument. I think a team with a really good transition scheme - either a consistent forecheck or a good neutral zone carry system, would let Laine focus on doing what he does best. His efforts to carry every puck is a problem, the puck is going to the opposition and not to his teammates.

 

[Marioesque]

My apologies to you as well. I just got triggered by the notion that people like me stay up all the night to watch the games and hoping for the team that we root for to succeed. With or without Laine playing. I’ve had several bags under my eyes during these excruciating seasons when he’s been on the team It’s all good. The CBJ will be a force to reckon in a couple of years, with or without Laine in the lineup.

Yeah I think it's the most exciting roster in the NHL, and Laine (healthy) adds to that excitement. I don't think team would benefit from trade, there's so much untapped potential.

If we knew what we'd be getting from Laine each game it would certainly be easier to do that.

One difficulty is that what we want for Laine is also the opportunity we want for many other players.

Don't we want 1st line and PP time for Marchenko?

For Chinakhov?

For Fantilli?

For Gaudreau?

We want all of them to get going. Everyone needs help.

All four of those guys belong on the PP halfwall, with Marchenko and Gaudreau both preferring to play the same left side spot as Laine. I understand that Laine's high end is the highest but he's currently the lowest, for instance only 1 PP point through 18 games for him. We're taking away PP time for the younger guys to give to Laine, who is currently performing worse than them.

That's the lineup construction argument for moving Laine.

You've also got the playstyle argument. I think a team with a really good transition scheme - either a consistent forecheck or a good neutral zone carry system, would let Laine focus on doing what he does best. His efforts to carry every puck is a problem, the puck is going to the opposition and not to his teammates.

There is nobody better for the 1st line or 1st PP in this roster. Nobody over produces him.

That's the end all, be all argument.

You'd need to convince me why you'd want anyone in the team taking more shots than Laine. It would be impossible to argue that.

Are their shots going to become goals more often than his? No. Then you know, to the haters ....stfu imho

 

[74 others]

Honestly. According insiders Columbus Blue Jackets are willing to listen to trade offers for Laine every season. So I'm not surprised that nothing has changed in this. Rather, I think potential suitors would want to take advantage of his current price.

Besides, let's not forget that Patrik has M-NTC. And if I may guess, the 10 teams where he wouldn't to play are: Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton, Arizona, Nashville, Minnesota, Islanders (Lamoriello), Buffalo, Ottawa. I don't know the tenth.

Toronto and Winnipeg may not be on the list, they won't take him anyway. San José and Anaheim are nice places so why not?

That's why number of buyers is pretty low, as those teams he would agree to either don't want him/don't have cap space/would be a bad offer. And I'm not sure a trade between three teams would change that.

I don't understand the logic behind that 9 teams list. You seem to know his particular taste well.

 

[Marioesque]

Watch this. After that, could you make a rational argument of not feeding that shot and having him on right point on PP?

And no, there are zero players who can replace it in this roster (or anywhere else). We need to use this player to his strengths and everyone benefits.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Watch this. After that, could you make a rational argument of not feeding that shot and having him on right point on PP?

And no, there are zero players who can replace it in this roster (or anywhere else). We need to use this player to his strengths and everyone benefits.

The player in this video (over 4 years old btw) is not the same player the jackets have now. Really not even in the same universe.

Similar flaws but not the strengths

 

[Marioesque]

The player in this video (over 4 years old btw) is not the same player the jackets have now. Really not even in the same universe.

Similar flaws but not the strengths

Laine today is overall better than the guy in this video. I should know, I watched him then too. The strengths went nowhere, they're just dormant due to injuries/usage. The weaknesses faded, due to work on them.

Use him to his strengths and get better results.

He's not even in physical prime yet.

Are you suggesting he peaked at 19?

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Laine today is overall better than the guy in this video. I should know, I watched him then too. The strengths went nowhere, they're just dormant due to injuries/usage. The weaknesses faded, due to work on them.

Use him to his strengths and get better results.

He's not even in physical prime yet.

Are you suggesting he peaked at 19?

Yes.

 

[Marioesque]

Yes.

Ok then.

Obviously we disagree but I really respect that you state your argument clearly.

 

[Cowumbus]

There is nobody better for the 1st line or 1st PP in this roster. Nobody over produces him.

That's the end all, be all argument.

You'd need to convince me why you'd want anyone in the team taking more shots than Laine. It would be impossible to argue that.

Can you help me to better understand what you mean exactly? Are you talking about real goal totals, or are you talking about rates? Something else?

For instance, in the 21-22 season Jenner and Bjorkstrand both had more PP goals and PP G/60 than Laine.

In the 22-23 season Laine had 1 more PP goal than Jenner and Marchenko, but Marchenko had the better PP G/60.

Obviously in 23-24 Laine has not been as good, with 1 goal and the 6th highest PP G/60 on the team.

The same trend applies to point totals on the PP (trailing others).

Over the last 3 years Jenner has more goals, and Marchenko trails Laine by a single goal despite playing 140 less minutes. Gaudreau leads the team in PP Pts over that time, playing about 20 mins less.

Oddly enough, his PP shooting percentage has never been higher than 3rd best (ranging from 3rd to 9th) for forwards on the CBJ over the last 3 years. He does take the most shots on the PP though, and has done so over the last few years. Now I know you have talked about PP usage before, what might be related is the fact that his PP shooting percentage is significantly less than it ever was in Winnipeg, like 5+ percent. Is that due to teams figuring him out, usage, something else - I’m not sure.

I look forward to hearing your reasoning as to why he is the best producer.

We agree that there is more to a PP than just shots (not directing this at Laine, just stating the obvious).

 

[VT]

I don't understand the logic behind that 9 teams list. You seem to know his particular taste well.

Players will rule out Canadian teams, except perhaps Toronto and Vancouver. In his case, there are 4 teams.

Further, players don't really want to go to Arizona, Minnesota, Buffalo. That's 7 teams. Islanders... Lamoriello is the GM there, it could put him off, Nashville - I think he's more likely to want to play on other teams. But again, that's just based on where players mostly don't want to play.
.

 

[VT]

Can you help me to better understand what you mean exactly? Are you talking about real goal totals, or are you talking about rates? Something else?

For instance, in the 21-22 season Jenner and Bjorkstrand both had more PP goals and PP G/60 than Laine.

In the 22-23 season Laine had 1 more PP goal than Jenner and Marchenko, but Marchenko had the better PP G/60.

Obviously in 23-24 Laine has not been as good, with 1 goal and the 6th highest PP G/60 on the team.

The same trend applies to point totals on the PP (trailing others).

Over the last 3 years Jenner has more goals, and Marchenko trails Laine by a single goal despite playing 140 less minutes. Gaudreau leads the team in PP Pts over that time, playing about 20 mins less.

Oddly enough, his PP shooting percentage has never been higher than 3rd best (ranging from 3rd to 9th) for forwards on the CBJ over the last 3 years. He does take the most shots on the PP though, and has done so over the last few years. Now I know you have talked about PP usage before, what might be related is the fact that his PP shooting percentage is significantly less than it ever was in Winnipeg, like 5+ percent. Is that due to teams figuring him out, usage, something else - I’m not sure.

I look forward to hearing your reasoning as to why he is the best producer.

We agree that there is more to a PP than just shots (not directing this at Laine, just stating the obvious).

Marchenko played a little bit in the NHL and had too high of a SH% last season. That's changing this season, for example since his hat trick against Buffalo he's only had one goal in 13 games and that was on the PP.

Also, don't forget that Kirill played most of the games on the PP, which actually played very well last season.

Jenner's goals are from a different position.

 

[VT]

If we knew what we'd be getting from Laine each game it would certainly be easier to do that.

One difficulty is that what we want for Laine is also the opportunity we want for many other players.

Don't we want 1st line and PP time for Marchenko?

For Chinakhov?

For Fantilli?

For Gaudreau?

We want all of them to get going. Everyone needs help.

All four of those guys belong on the PP halfwall, with Marchenko and Gaudreau both preferring to play the same left side spot as Laine. I understand that Laine's high end is the highest but he's currently the lowest, for instance only 1 PP point through 18 games for him. We're taking away PP time for the younger guys to give to Laine, who is currently performing worse than them.

That's the lineup construction argument for moving Laine.

You've also got the playstyle argument. I think a team with a really good transition scheme - either a consistent forecheck or a good neutral zone carry system, would let Laine focus on doing what he does best. His efforts to carry every puck is a problem, the puck is going to the opposition and not to his teammates.

Kirill was great in other position in the last season. So maybe:

Jenner

Laine - Marchenko/Fantilli - Johnson

Boqvist

---

Voronkov

Gaudreau - Fantilli/Marchenko - Chinakhov

Werenski (Zach can pass on right side for LH Chinakhov)

-----
Even so, we have to make changes. The last goals were thanks to Voronkov's play in front of the net. And let's not forget the condition Laine played in this season. Or do you want him off the PP? That would be a lot of fun.

Honestly, I'd like to see that and his reaction at the same time. Although our coaches would be capable of it.

 

[Forepar]

I'd like to see Laine given another year because I think this year has been a rough one to judge him on. He should of never been a center, that just screamed desperation. The injuries have added to an already bad year.

The gripes with Laine are legitimate, anyone who says different isn't living in reality.

I'd still like one more year to see him recoup his value. Shipping him out now doesn't make sense, this team isn't winning anything, might as well hope he returns to form.

Healthy Laine with the right usage is a dangerous player, he needs to figure out how to stay healthy and move his f***ing feet.

Selling now is just a lose lose unless you think this team is ready to win next year. Barring a good trade for us, keep him and see what he does the first half of the year, then reassess.

Maybe. If he’s fully engaged, within structure and not trying to be something he’s not good at, then agreed.

If he’s pouting because of his own tribulations, carrying the puck too much, etc., then I think he’s a drain on overall development of the team and young guns, and he should be traded soon.

Maybe part of my angst is I have little faith in Laine recovering to some semblance of the player he sometimes showed.

Maybe the negative effect on the young guns is overstated…but the negative effect on neon me is not overstated. LOL.