Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)
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Xoggz22
Registered User
Not sure if you watched him play but he was the best player on the ice, most engaged he's maybe ever been and he requested to play there. That says something about character. I know a lot of you don't like him and I questioned why not KJ in lieu of Laine... however, 6'5" and skill. There is absolutely nothing to lose by doing this. i applaud him for apparently still being a team guy in a season of shit. He's been ridiculed for his gaming, his attitude, he's lazy, he doesn't get the game, isn't a good teammate... we've seen it all and this, at some level, dispels all of that if, maybe a big if, it's true that he offered to try when Kuraly went down. This is not "mickey mouse"... this is what teams do when there is literally nothing but experiment to work with. There is NOTHING to GAIN if you DON'T try it. Because you'll never know. I suppose you don't push your limits or put yourself in a difficult position in the effort to learn and grow? Stay the status quo... best way to be looked over and/or eliminated.
it's one game but, to me, he showed me something that I think most have never considered... heart and being a good teammate. Taking a risk like that says a lot about his commitment in my opinion.
- Jan 12, 2011
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I’m fine with the Laine experiment. We have plenty of bottom 6 center candidates and Bemstrom/Foudy haven’t shown they can be top 6 players, let alone top 6 centers which is what the club needs. Laine is a top 6 guy. This explores whether he can be a top 6 center. My druthers would have been to slot KJ at center but the Laine experiment is ineteresting - certainly something that never crossed my mind or likely others‘ minds on this board.
of the current roster centers (jenner, kuraly, roslovic, sillinger) he has the best size, playmaking and vision of the group. obviously the best shot and maybe the best skill, too. so it does weirdly make sense.
i don't want to read too much into the experiment and get any ideas about laine being a center long-term, but he was by far the best jacket on the ice in his first game there.
not sure if this is an actual audition for him or if it's a trial for playing positionless hockey or if it's just them getting really weird down the stretch, but either way, it's fun, and that's something this team has been missing this year.
otherwise, not to repeat myself, but that blades of glory quote keeps popping into my head when i think about laine playing center: no one knows what it means, but it's provocative lol
Finnish hockey analyst, former elite league coach and forward "Ika" Lehkonen (father of Avalanche forward Artturi Lehkonen) made some interesting analysis of Laine's center play against Washington and was really impressed:
That chart is in Finnish, but it's about "consistency in performance while playing with puck", and according to Ika a 90% consistency is huge for center. Basically he counts different situations whether the performance is good ("HYVÄT:") or bad ("HUONOT:") and then calculates the difference ("EROTUS:").
He lists all those per periods ("I/II/II erä") and in total("YHTEENSÄ") on 5-on-5 (I use "+" for good, "-" for bad):
Loose puck ("Irtokiekko:") +18 -3 = +15
Pass receive ("Vastaanotto:") +18 -3 = +15
Pass ("Syöttö:") +25 -3 = +22
Transition/[puck carry?] ("Kuljetus:") +7 -1 = +6
Shot ("Laukaus:") +2 -1 = +1
Passing play? ("Siirtokiekko:") +2 -1 = +1
Dump [and chase?] ("Päätykiekko:") +1 -0 = +1
Total ("Yhteensä:") +73 -12 = +61, 85,8% consistency
I am a bit unsure about some of those translations for Finnish hockey terms, but I guess you get the idea.
That chart is in Finnish, but it's about "consistency in performance while playing with puck", and according to Ika a 90% consistency is huge for center. Basically he counts different situations whether the performance is good ("HYVÄT:") or bad ("HUONOT:") and then calculates the difference ("EROTUS:").
He lists all those per periods ("I/II/II erä") and in total("YHTEENSÄ") on 5-on-5 (I use "+" for good, "-" for bad):
Loose puck ("Irtokiekko:") +18 -3 = +15
Pass receive ("Vastaanotto:") +18 -3 = +15
Pass ("Syöttö:") +25 -3 = +22
Transition/[puck carry?] ("Kuljetus:") +7 -1 = +6
Shot ("Laukaus:") +2 -1 = +1
Passing play? ("Siirtokiekko:") +2 -1 = +1
Dump [and chase?] ("Päätykiekko:") +1 -0 = +1
Total ("Yhteensä:") +73 -12 = +61, 85,8% consistency
I am a bit unsure about some of those translations for Finnish hockey terms, but I guess you get the idea.
Finner
Registered User
- Dec 8, 2018
- 1,639
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Laine in a center position is actually genious move. Center often gets that second waive shooting opportunity and with his shot im fine with that.
In the comments this caught my eye: "On RW:nä muutenkin ollut monesti C roolin yliliikkumista pakkien avuksi joka sekoittanut PAPPia." I was trying to say this earlier but didn't find the words. But I remember seeing Patty coming to get the puck from the D a lot in previous games too, so much so that it has looked a little strange to me. I don't know if it's normal for wingers to do that. I guess it's not, so it's either something that comes naturally to him and/or he gravitates to that despite it not being the plan. Playing center makes it clearer.
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Oh, those machine translations from Finnish to English are hilarious
but at least you can roughly get the idea, if maybe not for the screenshot below. Without checking again from the Natural Stat Trick, I guess Mr. Leinonen gets one thing wrong on his analysis: Gaudreau has not played better without Laine than with Laine (even strenght). Laine has, however, played pretty much equally well regardless if he plays with or without Gaudreau.That should be about how Laine backchecks.
wabagee
Registered User
- Nov 24, 2014
- 2,074
- 1,199
Wait til this summer and Laine puts the strong back hair on his head, watch out!Oh, those machine translations from Finnish to English are hilarious
View attachment 674064
That should be about how Laine backchecks.
Oh, those machine translations from Finnish to English are hilarious
View attachment 674064
That should be about how Laine backchecks.
I never thought about her back hair before.
Does Finnish not have gender pronouns? Sounds like it would be relatively easy to be non-binary in Finland.
Indeed Finnish does not have gender pronouns. The only one available is "hän", so the pronouns are not an issue in the language. It holds up quite nicely in the newspapers etc more professional writing. In informal writing many people gravitate towards calling everybody "it" like a dog (and then of course some people want to call dogs and pets with the person pronoun). Deadnaming is still a thing but not by pronouns.
It's a little funny how far behind these web article translations are from the current state of more advanced AI.
Anyhow I hope the center experiment lasts the rest of the season, it's fun to watch and is so rare with top-6 players.
Probably the most accurate thing I’ve heard/seen in awhile regarding the effectiveness or how much we should take away from his newfound back checking that he should have always been doing in the 1st place even as a winger….
Nope. I always find the arguments about pronouns ridiculous because of this. Such an easy solution that'll make everyone happy. Pretty sure they've lately been moving to the same direction in Swedish as well. Instead of 'hon' or 'han', the use of 'hen' has become more common.
It's not actually newfound. Laine has been a great back checker for years now.
Laine is usually first man back.
One advantage of Laine at center is that he doesn't need to pull off an awkward coverage switch. It's easier to have first man back just cover down low rather than rotating out to a point in the middle of play.
Laine isn’t a good backchecker and Peeke isn’t a good defender.
He IS NOT “usually the 1st man back”.
The CBJ team has been running a 5 man “zone defense” recently, and forget his terrible defensive switches, all of this is ignoring just how EFFECTIVE Laine is around the net, offensively or defensively.
Whether it’s Roslovic, Peeke, Boqvist, or Laine, actually being in the right position, while seemingly hard enough for these guys in itself, is only half the work.
Btw. past two seasons combined, Laine has a point on 82% of goals scored 5v5 while he's on the ice, which is one of the highest numbers in the league (cut for > 1000min TOI to get rid of the players who have like 10 5v5 points over the past two seasons) and other top-6 guys in the top10 are players like Panarin, McDavid, Marnell, Crosby, Malkin, Kaprizov. Before the past two seasons that would've been 50-70% for Laine, but he's been over 80% for two seasons now. Variance is a thing, but watching how he plays these days and comparing it to how he used to play, I'd say it's more about changes in his game and his role, the puck has been going through him in almost everything they create offensively.
Of course that number alone doesn't tell much about your effectiveness, you could kill 99 attempted offensive plays by your team, resulting in no goal and then get a point on the only play that ends up in the net and have IPP of 100% But Laine has 2.39 points/60, which is a pretty good rate especially for playing in a bad team and he leads the team by a decent margin.
What does it all mean? I have no idea to be honest, other than he's doing great relative to his team but the team sucks. Does the team suck because they are so weak Laine is their best player or is it a case of great hockey in a bad team flying under the radar? I don't know how to answer that, judging players in a bad team is always tricky, you can try to isolate their impact or look at relative numbers, but in the end you're always left wondering more or less.
Looking at this season only, he's got the best GA/60, 2nd best CA/60 (behind KJ the man himself!), 3rd best GF/60 and 2nd best CF/60, leading the team in both GF% and CF%. He's the only player with over 50% GF, with 52%, no one else reaching 47%. This corsi thing especially is completely new for him, in the past he's been average at best compared to his team mates, interesting to see how that will go in the future, if this season is an outlier or if it's a sign of him taking a step forward in his overall game, not relying solely on good finishing.
Anyway, the only thing I'm sure of is all this stuff is why he's been such an interesting player for me to follow, throughout his career he's practically never met my expectations, for better and for worse. I never imagined his goal scoring would translate to NHL the way it did, then when he was putting up those crazy goal totals as a teenager I expected him to become a perennial challenger for Rocket, which he didn't do, now he's driving play and even trying out as a center? I'm about ready to bet that if I become convinced he'll be a center, they'll move him to play defense or he'll go back to being a pure sniper
I hope this rebuild goes well and they have better luck with injuries next season, I for one would love to see how this pans out with a more competent defense group and if Laine's numbers will scale up as the rest of the team plays better. I'm also expecting a bounce back from Gaudreau, he's not been playing anywhere near his best hockey lately IMO, but he's capable of dominating the O-zone practically by himself, but I don't remember seeing much of those shifts from him since very early in the season.
Of course that number alone doesn't tell much about your effectiveness, you could kill 99 attempted offensive plays by your team, resulting in no goal and then get a point on the only play that ends up in the net and have IPP of 100%
But Laine has 2.39 points/60, which is a pretty good rate especially for playing in a bad team and he leads the team by a decent margin.What does it all mean? I have no idea to be honest, other than he's doing great relative to his team but the team sucks. Does the team suck because they are so weak Laine is their best player or is it a case of great hockey in a bad team flying under the radar? I don't know how to answer that, judging players in a bad team is always tricky, you can try to isolate their impact or look at relative numbers, but in the end you're always left wondering more or less.
Looking at this season only, he's got the best GA/60, 2nd best CA/60 (behind KJ the man himself!), 3rd best GF/60 and 2nd best CF/60, leading the team in both GF% and CF%. He's the only player with over 50% GF, with 52%, no one else reaching 47%. This corsi thing especially is completely new for him, in the past he's been average at best compared to his team mates, interesting to see how that will go in the future, if this season is an outlier or if it's a sign of him taking a step forward in his overall game, not relying solely on good finishing.
Anyway, the only thing I'm sure of is all this stuff is why he's been such an interesting player for me to follow, throughout his career he's practically never met my expectations, for better and for worse. I never imagined his goal scoring would translate to NHL the way it did, then when he was putting up those crazy goal totals as a teenager I expected him to become a perennial challenger for Rocket, which he didn't do, now he's driving play and even trying out as a center? I'm about ready to bet that if I become convinced he'll be a center, they'll move him to play defense or he'll go back to being a pure sniper
I hope this rebuild goes well and they have better luck with injuries next season, I for one would love to see how this pans out with a more competent defense group and if Laine's numbers will scale up as the rest of the team plays better. I'm also expecting a bounce back from Gaudreau, he's not been playing anywhere near his best hockey lately IMO, but he's capable of dominating the O-zone practically by himself, but I don't remember seeing much of those shifts from him since very early in the season.
NotWendell
Has also never won the lottery.
Mickey Mouse has actually WON trophies. (And this is a statement about the franchise, not Laine.)
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CBJWerenski8
Rest in Peace Johnny
- Jun 13, 2009
- 43,623
- 26,639
Of all times to ride or rip on Laine, I don’t think now is the right time,
I have done my fair share of it this year. And I still do often wonder if you can win with a guy like him making as much money as he does. I am still not sure if he has the will or mental fortitude to be a star
However there is no denying that he cares. He volunteered to learn an all new position to help his team and to get out of a personal rut. So far to mixed results, but I at least appreciate him trying to do something new to help the team even if it doesn’t stick.
Yeah, these games mean nothing and his late season hot streak in the end doesn’t mean much to me, but if he can carry over this play, whether it’s as a winger or a center, into next year then he can help us.
I have done my fair share of it this year. And I still do often wonder if you can win with a guy like him making as much money as he does. I am still not sure if he has the will or mental fortitude to be a star
However there is no denying that he cares. He volunteered to learn an all new position to help his team and to get out of a personal rut. So far to mixed results, but I at least appreciate him trying to do something new to help the team even if it doesn’t stick.
Yeah, these games mean nothing and his late season hot streak in the end doesn’t mean much to me, but if he can carry over this play, whether it’s as a winger or a center, into next year then he can help us.
Btw. past two seasons combined, Laine has a point on 82% of goals scored 5v5 while he's on the ice, which is one of the highest numbers in the league (cut for > 1000min TOI to get rid of the players who have like 10 5v5 points over the past two seasons) and other top-6 guys in the top10 are players like Panarin, McDavid, Marnell, Crosby, Malkin, Kaprizov. Before the past two seasons that would've been 50-70% for Laine, but he's been over 80% for two seasons now. Variance is a thing, but watching how he plays these days and comparing it to how he used to play, I'd say it's more about changes in his game and his role, the puck has been going through him in almost everything they create offensively.
Of course that number alone doesn't tell much about your effectiveness, you could kill 99 attempted offensive plays by your team, resulting in no goal and then get a point on the only play that ends up in the net and have IPP of 100%
What does it all mean? I have no idea to be honest, other than he's doing great relative to his team but the team sucks. Does the team suck because they are so weak Laine is their best player or is it a case of great hockey in a bad team flying under the radar? I don't know how to answer that, judging players in a bad team is always tricky, you can try to isolate their impact or look at relative numbers, but in the end you're always left wondering more or less.
Looking at this season only, he's got the best GA/60, 2nd best CA/60 (behind KJ the man himself!), 3rd best GF/60 and 2nd best CF/60, leading the team in both GF% and CF%. He's the only player with over 50% GF, with 52%, no one else reaching 47%. This corsi thing especially is completely new for him, in the past he's been average at best compared to his team mates, interesting to see how that will go in the future, if this season is an outlier or if it's a sign of him taking a step forward in his overall game, not relying solely on good finishing.
Anyway, the only thing I'm sure of is all this stuff is why he's been such an interesting player for me to follow, throughout his career he's practically never met my expectations, for better and for worse. I never imagined his goal scoring would translate to NHL the way it did, then when he was putting up those crazy goal totals as a teenager I expected him to become a perennial challenger for Rocket, which he didn't do, now he's driving play and even trying out as a center? I'm about ready to bet that if I become convinced he'll be a center, they'll move him to play defense or he'll go back to being a pure sniper
I hope this rebuild goes well and they have better luck with injuries next season, I for one would love to see how this pans out with a more competent defense group and if Laine's numbers will scale up as the rest of the team plays better. I'm also expecting a bounce back from Gaudreau, he's not been playing anywhere near his best hockey lately IMO, but he's capable of dominating the O-zone practically by himself, but I don't remember seeing much of those shifts from him since very early in the season.
The IPP stat you mentioned (percentage of points on goals while he's on the ice) I think is a good sign for Laine. Of course it can mean multiple things. He can be a playkiller too. Some of us have wished over the years that less of the play ran through him.
He's clicked at different times in the last two games with Bemstrom and Foudy. So having one or two of those guys on his wing allows him to play the puck dominant style he wants to play and we don't have to worry so much about how that effects other players who need the puck, like Gaudreau.
Johnny, by the way, has not been good in the second half regardless, not even mailing it in. Give him his own line away from Laine next year and make sure he's ready to play and not just collect a check.
He's right (remember Nyquist -- Jenner -- Laine line) but in this case how lines? Tell, Laine would play with Foudy and Marchenko (this line played excellent in the 2n part of third period against Vegas). Boone isn't ideal center for him. I doubt he would play with Sillinger and Bemstrom, only if with Cole and Kirill (Gaudreau -- Sillinger -- Marchenko played excellent in the 3th period one game). Ideal center for Roslo is Jenner not Patrik. And I doubt Lars/Vincent would make Gaudreau -- Sillinger -- Marchenko, Johnson -- Jenner -- Roslovic, Foudy -- Laine -- Bemstrom lines. The problem is especially ice time, also Vincent tried Foudy -- Sillinger -- Bemstrom against Oveckkin line, so maybe it line could play against the best lines in the future too.
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According to Doms latest stats Laine has been worth 7,7m this season. That's better contract value this season than Johnny
In his last 31 games, Laine is 13-23-36.
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