Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)

[CBJWerenski8]

Well that’s great for Patty and his fantasy hockey owners.

The CBJ team won 3 of those 12 games and allowed 46 goals.

I’ve also been very critical of Laine, but this makes no sense.

Pinning 3 wins in 12 games and 46 GA on Laine is not fair. Why are team stats being applied to one player?

Laine might not be part of the solution here but is he really the biggest problem? I don’t think he’s even in the top 3.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Well that’s great for Patty and his fantasy hockey owners.

The CBJ team won 3 of those 12 games and allowed 46 goals.

this reads like you're saying that they're losing these games because of laine, so let's play with some stats, shall we?

at 5v5, here's how they fared as a team during that span:

CBJ TEAM 5v5	FOR	AGAINST	%
Shot attempts	513	615	45.48%
Goals	22	32	40.74%
Expected Goals	23.77	29.43	44.68%
Scoring Chances	271	312	46.48%

that's… pretty bad! here's how they fared in those same categories while laine was on the ice:

WITH LAINE 5v5	FOR	AGAINST	%
Shot attempts	185	192	49.07% (+3.52%)
Goals	11	9	55.00% (+14.26%)
Expected Goals	9.04	9.97	47.55% (+2.87%)
Scoring chances	110	103	51.64% (+5.16%)

in other words, in the last 15 games, the jackets have gone 3-11-1, but outscored and out-chanced their opponents during 5v5 play when patrik laine was on the ice.

 

[CBJ goalie]

 

[VT]

Talking so much about his turnovers. What if we compare his turnovers (radically reduced, by the way) to his forechecking/backchecking, take/holding the puck at the boards?

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Why are team stats being applied to one player?

I think we know the answer to this. I think we also know that any numbers - raw, situational - are as likely as not to be applicable depending on the player and the numbers.

 

[thebus88]

You guys defending him and excusing him for seemingly everything are complete hypocrites with what type of “statistics” are acceptable or not.

Using the same type of “numbers” to show he’s such a great player and “leading” the team, or whatever you guys are saying, I’m not even sure.

This “on ice”/“5 on 5” stat, that keeps getting posted, comes with the idea that Laine has an impact on every goal scored he’s on the ice for.

Which is BOGUS. Whether it’s goals for OR goals against. Yet, he gets excused for almost everything “defensively” or “effort wise”, or it’s simply acknowledged that he doesn’t impact everything in the defensive zone.

At yet at the same time, this idea that he is somehow responsible or impacting every goal the team scores when he is on the ice keeps getting expressed both indirectly and directly.

 

[NotCommitted]

I'm a bit perplexed about the level of criticism towards Laine lately. Am I smitten about his play this season? No I'm not but then again there's not a player on the team I could say that about and I think that tells more about the team's roster as a whole than those individual players (like Laine) who are actually doing relatively well.

Just for shits and giggles imagine substituting the D-men on ice with Laine any given night with a legit first pair from some team that has one. Yeah... same of course applies to rest of the forward group as well, add to that they've also been missing Voracek & Danforth for example, and now Nyquist.

I think guys like Laine & Gaudreau are just trying to do too much, Johnny gets away with it a bit more because he's better.

 

[thebus88]

Wrong center, wrong winger, wrong defensemen, wrong coaches…….

 

[majormajor]

You guys defending him and excusing him

There's really not much to be excused for. He's had a lot of points lately. The team does okay when he's out there.

Like if a guy was -20 and hadn't scored then you might defend or excuse that player depending on the circumstances. None of that is relevant for Laine.

 

[NotCommitted]

This “on ice”/“5 on 5” stat, that keeps getting posted, comes with the idea that Laine has an impact on every goal scored he’s on the ice for.

Which is BOGUS. Whether it’s goals for OR goals against. Yet, he gets excused for almost everything “defensively” or “effort wise”, or it’s simply acknowledged that he doesn’t impact everything in the defensive zone.

No it does not come with that idea, the idea it comes with is that over time those things even out and a picture starts to form on what kind of impact a player has when on ice. It's not like those stats are some black magic, goals for and goals against it's pretty self-explanatory, it's those things which end up in the score board, the underlying stuff is mostly based on shots for / shots against (or shot attempts) and stuff like "expected goals" tries to factor in "quality" of shot, like where it was shot from, was it a rebound etc, in an effort to take into account how likely a shot like that is to actually result in a goal.

There is not a stat, nor will there ever be one, which would convince you Laine brings anything positive on the ice, because you've made up your mind he doesn't and are prepared to die on that hill.

 

[Heavy Metal Jackets]

You guys defending him and excusing him for seemingly everything are complete hypocrites with what type of “statistics” are acceptable or not.

Using the same type of “numbers” to show he’s such a great player and “leading” the team, or whatever you guys are saying, I’m not even sure.

This “on ice”/“5 on 5” stat, that keeps getting posted, comes with the idea that Laine has an impact on every goal scored he’s on the ice for.

Which is BOGUS. Whether it’s goals for OR goals against. Yet, he gets excused for almost everything “defensively” or “effort wise”, or it’s simply acknowledged that he doesn’t impact everything in the defensive zone.

At yet at the same time, this idea that he is somehow responsible or impacting every goal the team scores when he is on the ice keeps getting expressed both indirectly and directly.

I think we know you'll never be happy with any answer, stat, comparison we say about him even if it's true. What do you have to say about him that's positive? All I've ever seen is negativity, he's a sniper. He tries defensively, but you admitted you haven't been watching the games I saw in a different thread. How can you post half this nonsense when you're not watching?!?

 

[Fro]

I’ve also been very critical of Laine, but this makes no sense.

Pinning 3 wins in 12 games and 46 GA on Laine is not fair. Why are team stats being applied to one player?

Laine might not be part of the solution here but is he really the biggest problem? I don’t think he’s even in the top 3.

Because....narratives

 

[stevo61]

This thread feels like its turned into Whose Line is it anyway, where everything is made up and the points dont matter

 

[Marioesque]

You guys defending him and excusing him for seemingly everything are complete hypocrites with what type of “statistics” are acceptable or not.

Using the same type of “numbers” to show he’s such a great player and “leading” the team, or whatever you guys are saying, I’m not even sure.

This “on ice”/“5 on 5” stat, that keeps getting posted, comes with the idea that Laine has an impact on every goal scored he’s on the ice for.

Which is BOGUS. Whether it’s goals for OR goals against. Yet, he gets excused for almost everything “defensively” or “effort wise”, or it’s simply acknowledged that he doesn’t impact everything in the defensive zone.

At yet at the same time, this idea that he is somehow responsible or impacting every goal the team scores when he is on the ice keeps getting expressed both indirectly and directly.

Name a better player in CBJ. Someone who has better stats. I'm waiting.

Your ridiculous tirade against the best player in the team is just getting old. Your feelings are not validated by facts.

 

[Marioesque]

There is not a stat, nor will there ever be one, which would convince you Laine brings anything positive on the ice, because you've made up your mind he doesn't and are prepared to die on that hill.

This is the truth. No matter that he's the best player in the roster. Bus has no ability to evaluate players rationally, it's nothing but personal feelings. Boohoo you sad thing.

Just watching this.... Patty brings up the puck and with Johnny sets up Marchenko for a goal. Scores another one from an almost impossible saucer from Johnny, after breaking the defensive formation with his feed to Johnny. And he manages to score on that bounce. Then sets up yet another goal with a fantastic neutral ice redirection. That's smart hockey, but fans like bus will never recognize good players because they don't have a clue what good means in hockey.

 

[domi28]

Name a better player in CBJ. Someone who has better stats. I'm waiting.

Your ridiculous tirade against the best player in the team is just getting old. Your feelings are not validated by facts.

Gaudreau?

 

[Marioesque]

Gaudreau?

His giveaways/blind passes are worse and more common than Laine's, but offensively they are equally productive.

 

[ThirdPeriodTurtle]

Tbh I feel Johnny's turnovers are a bit more controlled, whereas Laine tends to lose the puck in a way that causes something dangerous the other way (he's been pretty good trying to chase it back afterwards this season though). In other words, I rather have Johnny bring up the puck any day.

But yeah this discussion has been going in circles for a while.

 

[BB88]

I don’t really get the talk.

Laine went ppg on an average team with no stars.
He’s close to being ppg on a bottom3 team in the league.
He’s 24y.

So he’s shown he can produce offense with a limited roster& he’s not getting paid like a superstar.
I haven’t heard anything about Laine causing problems in the locker room either

So why the need to get rid of more talent when the team is craving for more talent?

I definitely can see him being part of the solution and not see him be part of the problem moving forward.
He just can’t be the guy on the team and he won’t be.

In the past Laine was at his best when he played in meaninfull games, when the games had emotion the better he got.
That’s one thing I’m looking forward to watch in Laine as Columbus starts to get better and better.
Is that same Laine still there or what’s up

 

[VT]

The opinion on Laine does not change. @thebus88 falls asleep and gets up talking how awful Laine is, most people are saying this about his frequent turnovers, inability to keep the puck, including at the boards, for/backchecking, poor transition. And while that hasn't been true for a long time, he's made a bad reputation for himself, so he's not going to get rid of such opinions. Btw, even if my opinion were borne out by stats, I don't care, as I find them inaccurate.

 

[LoveCBJ]

The last game he had one shot. Shouldn't the guy most here say has the greatest shot, shoot more than one time a game?

 

[tunnelvision]

The last game he had one shot. Shouldn't the guy most here say has the greatest shot, shoot more than one time a game?

Wrong mindset, plus relatively slow puck handling and shot release limits his opportunities to shoot.

 

[Easternbull]

I've given up on Patty. He is just another Kessel/Hoffman type player unless he has an elite playdriving center on his line.

Trade him for Cychryn and Bjugstad NOW!

 

[VT]

I've given up on Patty. He is just another Kessel/Hoffman type player unless he has an elite playdriving center on his line.

Trade him for Cychryn and Bjugstad NOW!

I agree, for example Jenner and Nyquist , an elite playdriving centers.

 

[BB88]

I've given up on Patty. He is just another Kessel/Hoffman type player unless he has an elite playdriving center on his line.

Trade him for Cychryn and Bjugstad NOW!

Kessell was MVP for Pens during their Stanley Cup run.
So as you said he can be very valuable player for Columbus.

This is silly.