Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)
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A great read. It's weird to me that his personality rubs some people the wrong way but can't please everybody and he states that too. Clearly has always had great work ethic and it made the shot what it is.
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Farmboy Patty
Senior Hockey Analyst
- Nov 2, 2017
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It's always been that way with people who stick out. Some people just can't accept a person that sticks out from the norm. I can attest to this from a personal experience, having lived in Finland for a decade as a Swede with Finnish heritage, but not fitting into the Finnish norm with a somewhat alternative flair or what you want to call it. Some loved it, others hated it. Haters gonna hate, I didn't care (except when some people were downright hostile)
Most of the “hate” of Laine has almost nothing to do with what you guys think it has to do with.
You guys overrate his overall ability and impact he has or makes on the ice, simple as that.
You guys overrate his overall ability and impact he has or makes on the ice, simple as that.
Well we wouldn't know the motives as well as you of course, can you forward us the latest edition of Laine hater newsletter and let us non subscribers in on these secrets?
But what could be a better reason for irrational hatred towards a player than that some fans are overrating their favourite player? Fans overrating their favourite players have never happened before. /S
Patty you naughty boy, it's all your fault!
Double-Shift Lasse
Just post better
I don’t understand these posts.
A poster said (essentially) that people don’t like Laine because he’s “different”.
A poster responded “no, that’s not the reason, this is”.
And you guys are on about haters and favorite players.
Hint:
There is a pretty long posting history behind this all. I mean, practically at least 1 post per day on average on the subject.
I just find it amazing how anyone can invest countless of hours, days, even weeks for being anti-fan of certain players.
Maybe I should try it myself one day. It might be rewarding.
I'll try to explain then.
Bus doesn't like Laine, the "reasoning" for it changes. There are others who dislike Laine, usually they talk about his "attitude" or something vague because they just dislike him and the reason isn't important to them. It's not a thought out position, but a felt one.
Bus suggests now that he doesn't like Laine because some of his fans have too high of an opinion of him as a player. Now think about that reasoning for a second. Hate Laine, because someone else thinks he is better than you think he is.
Just odd to me, that's all. I don't think as highly of Korpi for example, but I don't hate Korpi because bus has a lofty opinion about his skills.
Double-Shift Lasse
Just post better
Thanks for helping me. I get this, I really do.
I had focused on the “isn’t as good” part but I can see why the “as some people think” is the part that stood out.
Believe me, DSL and most of the folks around here are well aware of my “posting history”. Some people understand or enjoy my (humorous/sarcastic -yet also- direct/“confrontational”) style, others do not.
Again, while I’m assuming some involved in these recent Laine talks have been around here for a while longer than his time on the CBJ, or are interested in the team for more than a singular reason, SOME of you seemingly can’t speak about the CBJ in any way without relating it to or moving the conversation onto Laine in some way.
Not everything is Laine-centric like you seem to believe, which only ADDS to peoples “hate” for him. The quite literal “countless hours” expressing my opinions and (imo) “advanced” hockey knowledge on this site LITERALLY has nothing to do with my “hate” for Laine, Merzlikins, or anybody else.
It has everything to do with the overall impact I believe they have on the TEAM.
HE HAS 1 GOAL/1 POINT IN 4 GAMES!! Yet, you guys want to talk 60-70 goal season potential, and I’m the “outlandish” person…??
Well there you go. I just "believe" differently. I see him as the best player in the team last season and so far this season for the little time he has played (not good enough since he has only scored 1). There are statistics, basic and advanced to back up those beliefs I have. He affects the game positively the most in the team, by any metrics that I can see as relevant.
You see him as a negative drag to the team for your own reasons. I am of course curious to what those reasons are, but I'm skeptical about getting a true answer for it. It's not in the measurable portion of the hockey game, that we could see in the stats if he was just losing every shift. Has happened in his career before for periods of times and has always shown in metrics. Now they show the opposite. Hopefully the results from that work start coming in tomorrow. Not just for Laine but for Johnny as well.
Question for the ‘Lazy Laine Fan Club’ (or anybody else who wants to answer), am I (now) a “hater” or CORRECT regarding my opinions on Elvis Merzlikins as a player?
What is the definition of “perception”??
I think the Elvis question is extremely relevant to Laine and this thread, as my opinions are being “ATTACKED“ by posters in the same exact way, regarding me basing my opinions on them as players by giving more weight to my apparent opinions of them as human beings, and not the fact that THEY ARE EXTREME DISAPPOINTMENTS ON THE ICE (in Elvis’ case simply not good) AND HAVE DONE NOTHING to help the CBJ turn into a WINNING TEAM!!
What is the definition of “perception”??
I think the Elvis question is extremely relevant to Laine and this thread, as my opinions are being “ATTACKED“ by posters in the same exact way, regarding me basing my opinions on them as players by giving more weight to my apparent opinions of them as human beings, and not the fact that THEY ARE EXTREME DISAPPOINTMENTS ON THE ICE (in Elvis’ case simply not good) AND HAVE DONE NOTHING to help the CBJ turn into a WINNING TEAM!!
So he has 1 point in 4 games and is the “best player”??
Best player and highest paid in an admittedly SHIT team, but, has no impact on the team actually being SHIT??
At his salary/cap hit, we could have nearly any other player in the league swapped in for him. Yes, that’s hypothetical and I’m taking purely $$.
Gaudreau looks like shit also. The CBJ would be better off with Seth Jones (or a “decent” center) than either guy. I don’t care what all the other “experts” think.
f*** the “metrics”!! Quit ignoring the concept that he’s not only PAID to provide them, but, also set up by the team with the BEST OPPORTUNITY to provide these “metrics”…
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I can't comment on the Elvis question, I have never thought he was any good. We are in agreement on him.
About perception, well I would just want to understand the perception you have and what experiences have made you perceive that way. Maybe that could help me understand why I shouldn't like the player and character, or maybe I could help correct your perception.
Because the 1a observation definition of perception (statistical on ice performance, what happens on the ice that we can observe)
and
1b is the mental image, which in your case is negative. It's in conflict with observation. Unless you have a different idea of what is valuable in an observation.
Definition of perception
1a: a result of perceiving : OBSERVATION
b: a mental image : CONCEPT
Ok we can pretend it's fair and honest to use 4 game sample sizes, around an injury none the less, to make some sort of point.
When he has a 4 game streak where he leads the league in scoring and points (this has happened many times in his career, sometimes months) by a large margin, are you going to say he's the best player in the league?
I don't expect him to stay at this point pace the rest of the season but maybe you do. Ill adviced considering history, but if betting with feelings is ones thing, who am I to say otherwise.
How could you think Elvis was never any good, when the “metrics” (apparently) said otherwise??
Why do you think the past CBJ team was immediately better replacing Rick Nash with Brandon Dubinsky and Artem Anisimov???
My perception of Laine is that the CBJ lose games when he plays…now, is that “WRONG”??
I don’t care about Laine’s points or goals he scores on a SHIT team anymore than I care about Rick Nash’s points/goals and Rocket Richard trophy from the past.
Give me some SHIT “metrics” and “analytics”, some “55 point scoring”/ “middle 6ers” that SKATE HARD, and some f***ing WINS!!
There’s a reason I’m perceived as a “hater” of Laine, and you can barely find a bad comment from me regarding a player like Panarin, and his time with the CBJ.
He played 3 games after injuring his right elbow. The right elbow is quite important for RHP. Which you know all too well, but you gotta dig Laine. Moving on. Austin Matthews was 1+1 in his first 4 games.
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I'm pretty pessimistic about the goals/points if Roslovic or Jenner play with them (both, Johnny and Patrik). I'm not against combining Boone and Patrik (they showed chemistry together), but in that case I'd have a different player on the wing. Preferably Johnson. Who could later be moved to center.
Objectively, yes, you are wrong (unless you really refer to less than 3 and half games sample size).
Last season CBJ was (barely) a playoff pace team when Laine was not injured. However, when he was injured, CBJ was closer to a bottom feeder. Maybe not all the difference was Laine playing, but he had really strong positive impact.
Even this very season with super small sample size, Laine leads the team in real GF% and xGF%. See the best CBJ guys and the worst CBJ guys by 5-on-5 results this season:
(Bayreuther is erroneously dead last on the stats, as his GF and GA are both 0, leading to division by zero, thus having invalid GF%, although it should be 50%)
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You would not be perceived as a hater if you only bitched about Laine in 20-21, when there was a lot to bitch about. But since then he has been most of the time the best player on the team, last season even with a rather large margin, and yet your bitching continues to be the same as 20-21.
Your perception of him was formed in 20-21, and while Laine's play has been changed more like his best years on Winnipeg were, your perception of him still hasn't changed at all, making all your comments about him just ignorant and irrelevant to the point almost nobody is anymore interested about your "insight" about him, as it has only very little resemblance to the reality.
You know I'm not a Laine hater, but, frankly, I'm not a fan of statistics like that, as they don't account for a lot of things.
GF% finally accounts all the things relevant to winning (it's the result), but obviously 3-10 games sample size is just laughable.
xGF% accounts all unblocked shots-on-goal so for sure it misses a lot of nuances and for example that Johnny's shot on Arizona goal pipes. However, if Laine has positive xGF%, that is really, really awesome as xGF generally is unfavourable to perimeter sharpshooters like Laine as that stat thinks Laine shoots like average NHLer.
Stats are not everything, but those two are among the best and most relevant there are, esp. GF%, as it simply tells whether you are winning your game or not, or "is your team scoring more goals than the opposite team when you are on ice" (5-on-5 as that's the only fair comparison as special teams, 3-on-3, 6-on-5 etc. are entirely different situations).
I’m not saying the CBJ would be a “better” team without Laine, even though it is possible, especially with Gaudreau now around.
What I am saying is the CBJ would be better off with essentially ANY other guy in the league with a similar cap hit, and many other guys making quite a bit less.
Laine would have been “perfect” for the CBJ 3+ years ago with Panarin around, and even before that, when we legitimately had a “plethora” of “two way” guys that WORKED HARD and yet lacked “scoring touches”. Not now that the team lacks hard working players. And to add, this idea that some of you guys are attempting to pass off as fact, that Laine is some changed “hard working/two way player” is BOGUS and bothersome.
Repeatedly saying he’s the “best” player on a terrible team as some sort of compliment is ridiculous. He’s literally paid to be the best player. Some of you seem to think that the CBJ has never been GOOD with “lesser skilled” players than Laine, and some of his current supporting cast.
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