Player Discussion: Patrik Laine IVever: a new hope? (Laine out of PAP, trade request still stands)

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I agree with this.

Do you think Laine is our best player right now?

He might be but just the fact that it’s not clear leaves me feeling a little queasy about a contract that obviously treats him thus.

 

[Monk]

He might be but just the fact that it’s not clear leaves me feeling a little queasy about a contract that obviously treats him thus.

Don't worry about it, it's a low bar

 

[Xoggz22]

So there has been a bit of discussion around Laine and his status on the team. There is also discussion that the team, as a whole, does not have enough talent and isn't very good. So if you have a player that can score at a PPG as well as be on pace for 38 goals in an injury/personal issue riddled season would we not expect even more as the roster/players improve?

I guess, to me, he still has an elite shot and the ability to be in a position to shoot. He did show improvement in his overall game but will never be considered a Selke candidate but I don't think he hurt the team this year like he did last year. Turnovers were down and he played within a team concept. So, that said, I would fully expect that these skills translate even with an improved roster and he likely remains the top forward and, quite honestly, he is still feared in the offensive 1/3 even with the struggles around him. Unfortunately there are currently no other players that can hurt other teams like Laine can.

I'm on the page of a 5-6 year deal and it will be in the $9.5MM AAV and I have no issue with that. If it's a little higher, I think he's worth it and will continue to be worth it as the players around him improve or are replaced with better talent. I don't subscribe to the theory that if he's out best player, we're in trouble. I think he is our most dangerous player and think ZW is our best overall player. Both will be paid similarly and I don't struggle with that situation. Keeping the contract to 6 years or less allows the young players we hope to improve as the core the ability to get paid after their ELC and potential bridge deals are up.

 

[5th Line Fanatic]

Offensively I think he is. At least I think he is the guy the defense is most worried about. Other guys may get more assists but I think he is the guy who other teams worry about.
Overall player (including defense) I think Zach W is better but different positions, etc.

This is where I think the negotiation on this deal is headed. There is no doubt in my mind that Laine thinks he's the best player on the team. The CBJ is going to try to say, "we'll make you the highest paid offensive player on the team." Laine (through his agent) is going to come back with, "I'm not only the best player on this team, I'm one of the best players in the NHL and if I'm going to give you X years of my prime, I expect to get paid like it."

My prediction is a deal gets done at $9.6 x 4 years.

 

[LJ7]

I'd be ok with $9.6 for 4 or 5 years. I don't really want a 7-8 year deal. 5 is plenty long. I do wonder if Laine wants 8 years or something. Who knows.

 

[BB88]

He might be but just the fact that it’s not clear leaves me feeling a little queasy about a contract that obviously treats him thus.

Why?

Guys like that are getting 10+ from the market, not a chance Laine lands a contract like that.

He’ll get star contract, not superstar

 

[db2011]

Sports are a business and if ownership feels Laine will bring in more fans then that will count for something, like it or not. Personally, I like it, and while I like Elvis's personality, Laine is in another league with regards to marketability. It's really not close. Also, Laine is much better at his position than Elvis is at his, so it's not just fancy suits and sunglasses and comical hair- it's production.

I'd give Laine plenty, I think he's really important to the team both on the ice and as a face of the team.

 

[VT]

Remember Aho. With the Montreal offer, Carolina had to give him a salary of about $8.5 millions. In 2019, that seemed too much. In just 4 years Montreal would have to offer around $10 millions.

Now $9.5 millions seems too much (although I personally would give him around $8.8 millions), but in 2-3 years that may be the ideal salary. That is, unless the world situation changes radically.

P.S. I don't think Werenski is better but Zach a d-man and Patrik is a winger. And if your family isn't Kucherov, very good d-men are more important.

 

[stevo61]

Remember Aho. With the Montreal offer, Carolina had to give him a salary of about $8.5 millions. In 2019, that seemed too much. In just 4 years Montreal would have to offer around $10 millions.
Now $9.5 millions seems too much (although I personally would give him around $8.8 millions), but in 2-3 years that may be the ideal salary. That is, unless the world situation changes radically.

who thought Aho's contract was too much? Montreal thought it was too much for Carolina, meanwhile they were laughing because they didnt need to go through any negotiations

 

[VT]

who thought Aho's contract was too much? Montreal thought it was too much for Carolina, meanwhile they were laughing because they didnt need to go through any negotiations

They wrote that it was too big salary for a player like him at that time.

 

[thebus88]

I wish we could know all the possible returns we could get for a “long term” signed Laine.

Seems most people have the idea or mindset that “he’s the best we can do”, not entirely “sold” on what he brings or does on the ice, yet, afraid of what the team would look like offensively without him.

The consistency and overall max level of intensity he brings on the ice is still a major concern!! As is his overall defensive awareness!! He may not be a “liability” but he is absolutely detrimental to the team defensively!! Anybody who says otherwise and doesn’t have deep concerns about Laine playing heavy games deep into the playoffs, is either wrong or lying to themselves.

Which leads us to the actual “fit” that Laine has with the current roster build of the CBJ. With or without Laine, it’s CLEAR the CBJ need to make multiple other moves in order to become remotely competitive.

Unless he changes DRASTICALLY, Laine will only ever win anything at the NHL level with a MUCH MORE defensively responsible team, with many better offensive “playmakers”, and with a deep team that is using up every last cap dollar. All things that need to be altered within the CBJ, if the plan is to “win” with Laine, imo.

IMO we need to change nearly half the roster, or trade Laine for a better 2 way player, preferably a center or defenseman, and move forward with the “group offense” strategy, with the “abundance” of young “skilled/offensive minded” players recently added to the organization.

This whole thing feels like a lead up to Rick Nash 2.0, and we are already 2 years into a new plan with no direction, nearly unwatchable hockey, with 3 more years to go of the same until we look to go into a NEW direction.

Crazy how such a short time how UNHAPPY so many were about a team and players SO MUCH BETTER and actually capable of winning BIG hockey games, in relation to the shit that’s on the ice now.

 

[BB88]

Remember Aho. With the Montreal offer, Carolina had to give him a salary of about $8.5 millions. In 2019, that seemed too much. In just 4 years Montreal would have to offer around $10 millions.

Now $9.5 millions seems too much (although I personally would give him around $8.8 millions), but in 2-3 years that may be the ideal salary. That is, unless the world situation changes radically.

P.S. I don't think Werenski is better but Zach a d-man and Patrik is a winger. And if your family isn't Kucherov, very good d-men are more important.

Aho contract was seen as steal.

Marner just got paid millions more, not to mention Matthews that year

 

[domi28]

Barkov scored 59 points in 66 games and took 5.9Mx6.
Mackinnon had 52 points in 72 games before he took 6.3Mx7.
Scheifele had 61 points in 71 games before he took 6.125Mx8

That was the going rate for top C’s coming off of ELC at that time.
I believe he won’t ask for max but that 1st one was fair.

& back to Laine I believe the ”challenge” meaning why it will take so long is everything outside the pure numbers.
There’s NMC vs bonuses vs whatever to sort out& I can’t see how Laine either would ask for the max.
In his interviews he has never been about money& his lifestyle outside of cars fits that

He (along with his agent) quite literally held out for more money the last time he negotiated a contract.

Jets' Patrik Laine practicing overseas amid contract holdout | Sporting News

www.sportingnews.com

 

[VT]

Aho contract was seen as steal.

Marner just got paid millions more, not to mention Matthews that year

That's just it. It was Montreal's offer sheet that helped Caroline. I read somewhere at the time that his contract was too big. Let's put it this way, Aho had to agree to the offer sheet. That means Carolina had other ideas about his salary. Now his contract is a steal, back then it wasn't. Don't forget that the salary cap was lower.
Except Patrik is a winger and has never once 1PPG or more in 70+ games, not even more than 60. That's why I think the max is $9 million and even then only because the salary cap will go up and we shouldn't be in trouble for a while as even though some players will get more, some can be traded/end their careers. For example Voracek and Nyquist together are worth about $14 million.

 

[Easternbull]

You need gamebrakers along with stud dmen and two way centers and elite goalies, to win cups.

Just look at Kucherov, absolutely horendous defensively but can swing a series with one play.

Patty is not as bad in his on zone IMHO, but can change the game with one pass/shot.

 

[VT]

I wish we could know all the possible returns we could get for a “long term” signed Laine.

Seems most people have the idea or mindset that “he’s the best we can do”, not entirely “sold” on what he brings or does on the ice, yet, afraid of what the team would look like offensively without him.

The consistency and overall max level of intensity he brings on the ice is still a major concern!! As is his overall defensive awareness!! He may not be a “liability” but he is absolutely detrimental to the team defensively!! Anybody who says otherwise and doesn’t have deep concerns about Laine playing heavy games deep into the playoffs, is either wrong or lying to themselves.

Which leads us to the actual “fit” that Laine has with the current roster build of the CBJ. With or without Laine, it’s CLEAR the CBJ need to make multiple other moves in order to become remotely competitive.

Unless he changes DRASTICALLY, Laine will only ever win anything at the NHL level with a MUCH MORE defensively responsible team, with many better offensive “playmakers”, and with a deep team that is using up every last cap dollar. All things that need to be altered within the CBJ, if the plan is to “win” with Laine, imo.

IMO we need to change nearly half the roster, or trade Laine for a better 2 way player, preferably a center or defenseman, and move forward with the “group offense” strategy, with the “abundance” of young “skilled/offensive minded” players recently added to the organization.

This whole thing feels like a lead up to Rick Nash 2.0, and we are already 2 years into a new plan with no direction, nearly unwatchable hockey, with 3 more years to go of the same until we look to go into a NEW direction.

Crazy how such a short time how UNHAPPY so many were about a team and players SO MUCH BETTER and actually capable of winning BIG hockey games, in relation to the shit that’s on the ice now.

Laine played great with Jenner and Nyquist (btw, when they were supposed to play together for the first time andhad great chemistry with Jenner who isn't a playmaker. Rather the opposite. Similar to Gus, although he has a better distribution. And now look who was "pulling" the team in late January, February and part of March (until we had a chance to play in PO). So after last season, the mantra - how Laine needs a playmaker - is starting to get very ridiculous. Btw Boone in particular is very good defensively.

I don't think the team needs big changes at the moment because we need to see how the young players develop first. Look, now they'll trade some youngster for playmaker. But in the future, he can grow up to be a great player with much more value. And where is written that this playmaker would play well for us.

I agree that if we want to win Stanley Cup, we have to have a stronger team. But first we have to find out what's in the young players. Especially Tarasov. Don't get mad at me Elvis fans, but he's not a goalie that can steal games in PO. There would have to be a team like Colorado in front of him. According to experts, Tarasov could be a top goalie.

P.S. In addition, look at one of Carolina's and Florida's problems in PO. They had playmakers, but ones didn't have snipers. Especially Florida. Panthers had problems even against Caps.

You need gamebrakers along with stud dmen and two way centers and elite goalies, to win cups.

Just look at Kucherov, absolutely horendous defensively but can swing a series with one play.

Patty is not as bad in his on zone IMHO, but can change the game with one pass/shot.

That's why he's playing with Palat in the line and not against the opponent's best lines, Hagel -- Cirelli -- Killorn is playing against them, Colton -- Paul -- Perry at worst.

 

[DougKnowsBest]

9.75 for 4 years what are we even talking about at this point

We feel good about being Under 10 cap hit a year. Very tradable asset after 2 years If things go south. If things go well laine is in the driver seat for another pay raise sooner then later.

 

[VT]

For @thebus88 I'd still like to point out how Tampa has been building the team. I count with Point. Signing only players who never played in NHL before.

D - draft
S - signing
T - trade

Palat (D) -- Stamkos (D) -- Kucherov (D)
Point (D) -- Cirelli (D) -- Killorn (D)
Hagel (T) -- Paul (T) -- Colton (D)
Maroon (T) -- Bellemare (T) -- Perry (T)
Nash (T)

Hedman (D), Ruuta (S)
McDonagh (T), Cernak (T)
Sergachev (T), Bogosian (T)
Foote (D)

Vasilevsky (D)

All importants players in offense were drafted, similar like Vasilevsky and Hedman. And except Stamkos, Hedman and Vasilevsky not in the first round. Yes, Foote in the first too but he isn't important yet.

So which is better, develop your talents, work with them, or trade and trade and trade?

 

[thebus88]

Laine played great with Jenner and Nyquist (btw, when they were supposed to play together for the first time andhad great chemistry with Jenner who isn't a playmaker. Rather the opposite. Similar to Gus, although he has a better distribution. And now look who was "pulling" the team in late January, February and part of March (until we had a chance to play in PO). So after last season, the mantra - how Laine needs a playmaker - is starting to get very ridiculous. Btw Boone in particular is very good defensively.

I don't think the team needs big changes at the moment because we need to see how the young players develop first. Look, now they'll trade some youngster for playmaker. But in the future, he can grow up to be a great player with much more value. And where is written that this playmaker would play well for us.

If I think Nyquist should be slotted in as 1 of our “top line” wingers is another question (hint: I don’t), but, he certainly plays a “playmaker” role when playing with Laine. I’d argue he looks to pass too much even when playing without Laine, and when they do play together it is even more detrimental to Nyquist’s game. Same could be said for Voracek and him looking to feed Laine.

Who IS Laine making better on the ice?? Also, the CBJ quite literally haven’t played a SINGLE meaningful game with Laine on the team. For a very short window we’re they ever near the “playoff race“, and while Laine has had some stretches of good play and big point streaks, his play has been simply mediocre, for most of the minutes, in most of the games. IMO

Also, while Jenner isn’t a “playmaker”, he certainly is a “play driver” and just overall good at gaining and holding possession of the puck. Also, IMO his “vision” and “short range” passing ability is actually VERY underrated and absolutely “top 6 forward” level. Overall, he can get the puck to Laine AND help cover for his defensive deficiencies that absolutely exist.

If Laine and Roslovic weren’t such shit defensively, they could play together and gain more offensive statistics for themselves.

Overall, I personally have a big issue with how BOTH the offense and defense are currently built. I don’t think muscle mass and experience is the problem, it’s the overall abundance of the same type of players that lack defensive awareness that doesn’t just come by playing extra years in the NHL.

I agree with you on Merzlikins and other things.

 

[thebus88]

For @thebus88 I'd still like to point out how Tampa has been building the team. I count with Point. Signing only players who never played in NHL before.

D - draft
S - signing
T - trade

Palat (D) -- Stamkos (D) -- Kucherov (D)
Point (D) -- Cirelli (D) -- Killorn (D)
Hagel (T) -- Paul (T) -- Colton (D)
Maroon (T) -- Bellemare (T) -- Perry (T)
Nash (T)

So which is better, develop your talents, work with them, or trade and trade and trade?

HOW you build a team couldn’t be any more irrelevant.

The problem with Laine (and a BIGGER problem as a team as a whole) is that from superstar 1st liner to 4th liner, EVERY SINGLE TAMPA BAY FORWARD plays with MORE intensity and drive than Laine does.

 

[VT]

Ak si myslím, že Nyquist by mal byť zaradený ako 1 z našich krídelníkov „hornej línie“, je iná otázka (nápoveď: ja nie), ale určite hrá rolu „playmakera“, keď hrá s Laine. Tvrdil by som, že vyzerá, že prihráva príliš veľa, aj keď hrá bez Laineho, a keď spolu hrajú, je to pre Nyquistovu hru ešte škodlivejšie. To isté by sa dalo povedať o Voráčikovi a jeho, ktorí chcú nakŕmiť Laine.

Kto je Laine lepší na ľade? Tiež CBJ doslova neodohrali jedinú zmysluplnú hru s Laine v tíme. Počas veľmi krátkeho obdobia sme boli vždy blízko „preteku o play-off“, a aj keď Laine mal niekoľko úsekov dobrej hry a veľké bodové série, jeho hra bola po väčšinu minút vo väčšine zápasov jednoducho priemerná. . IMO

Aj keď Jenner nie je „tvorca hry“, určite je „ vodičom hry “ a celkovo dobrý v získavaní a držaní puku. Tiež IMO jeho schopnosť „videnia“ a „krátkeho dosahu“ prihrávania je v skutočnosti VEĽMI podceňovaná a je absolútne na úrovni „top 6 vpred“. Celkovo môže dostať puk k Lainemu A pomôcť pokryť jeho defenzívne nedostatky, ktoré absolútne existujú.

Keby Laine a Roslovic neboli v defenzíve také sračky, mohli by hrať spolu a získavať pre seba ďalšie ofenzívne štatistiky.

Celkovo mám osobne veľký problém s tým, ako je v súčasnosti postavená ofenzíva aj obrana. Nemyslím si, že je svalová hmota a skúsenosti, je to celkový počet rovnakých typov hráčov, ktorým chýba defenzívne povedomie, ktoré neprichádza len hranicami extra rokov v NHL.

V Merzlikins a iných veciach s tebou súhlasím.

Most games is average? Have you ever noticed how he can quickly play the puck, what helps this line to get through the middle zone quickly, his big improvement in transition and the fact that it stopped figure skating? But honestly, you can't do anything with Jenner in the line. Not to mention how often he is able to create chances for his partners. One began to use his body more and especially the long stick (although he could use it more). But it's interesting that in the first part of the season he played well in defense, he could "eat" the space, but gradually it was not so ... ehm ... ideal.

Btw Voráček told the Czech media that Patrik has problems with self-confidence when he believes himself, he is unstoppable. Vincent confirmed this for some media from Quebec. And that they were working on it.

Gus and Boone I agree with most of you. I've written it about Boone before, just in other words (my English is not that good), when it was written that he is not a first-line player and does not have an ideal hockey IQ. However, no one can call Gus a playmaker who can deliver perfect passes to snipers. In addition, Patrik often made perfect chances for his partners.

Roslovic significantly improved his defense, although without the puck it is still not ideal. Btw is very good at forchecking and transition, but I don't think it's suitable for Laine. Voráček is an ideal partner for Jack. I still feel like he would be a better winger. But we have a lot of wingers and problems with centers.

I''m looking at Elvis' contract. It's not just for 5 years, but still M-NTC. How could Jarmo agree with this clause in Elvis' case ???

You are right about defense. That's why I'd like to get Cirelli who is ideal, as Tampa will have problems with the salary cap. Because although Palat after this and Killorn after the next will be UFA, Sergachev, Cernak, and also Cirelli will be after the next RFA season and I will definitely want more. And we have something to offer. For example, our collection of wingers should be reduced. We have someone/something to offer. Texier is often injured I don't like it. And sign Palat... the first, he is 31, the second, we have many wingers.

Although I still think Foudy is underatedand and he could be tried as the center with Jenner and Laine in the preseason. The problem is that some players are sacred cows that won't be traded. Which one, I won't write. So he probably won't try but play in AHL and Gus Nyquist can be traded.

 

[BB88]

He (along with his agent) quite literally held out for more money the last time he negotiated a contract.

Jets' Patrik Laine practicing overseas amid contract holdout | Sporting News

www.sportingnews.com

At that point Laine had scored 110 goals on his elc and was one of the best junior scorers in NHL history.

Jets were lowballing Laine, sure if Jarmo is offering 6-7M on a longterm deal you are in trouble.

That's just it. It was Montreal's offer sheet that helped Caroline. I read somewhere at the time that his contract was too big. Let's put it this way, Aho had to agree to the offer sheet. That means Carolina had other ideas about his salary. Now his contract is a steal, back then it wasn't. Don't forget that the salary cap was lower.
Except Patrik is a winger and has never once 1PPG or more in 70+ games, not even more than 60. That's why I think the max is $9 million and even then only because the salary cap will go up and we shouldn't be in trouble for a while as even though some players will get more, some can be traded/end their careers. For example Voracek and Nyquist together are worth about $14 million.

Marner had signed in the 11M range just before Aho contract.

Marner 11 vs Aho (C) 8.5.
It was never seen as expensive as Dubas changed the RFA market with his Matthews& Marner deals.
Rantanen followed it with 9.25M contract.

Carolina was seen cheap back then and if I remember right started in the 7 range for Aho, that doesn’t mean 8.5M was seen too big by the league.

Aho 8.5
Rantanen 9.25
Marner 10.90
Matthews 11.6.

It’s hard to be seen as expensive when you’re the cheapest of the big group on longterm deals signed that year.
Marner and Matthews deals were questioned

 

[Kaako Kappo]

But they became Stanley Cup contenders because of his attitude, and willing to sacrifice.

The Colorado Avalanche are only 5 seasons removed from a brutal 22 win season, in '16-'17 - a team that MacKinnon was on.

No they didn't. The contract MacKinnon got was on line with his performance when it was written. They became contenders because they drafted two franchise players in addition to MacKinnon. And because Sakic did some great moves to improve the team even further than that.

 

[thebus88]

Just saw/found this.

2:40 in.

CBJ/NHL player: “He’s pretty f***ing lazy”.

And agrees with Torts when adding, “If you’re a liability defensively this team doesn’t go anywhere”.

How many past or current CBJ players feel this way??

What about throughout the league?? Does signing Laine “long term” help or hurt the teams chances of possibly adding a significant player through free agency??

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Just saw/found this.

2:40 in.

CBJ/NHL player: “He’s pretty f***ing lazy”.

And agrees with Torts when adding, “If you’re a liability defensively this team doesn’t go anywhere”.

How many past or current CBJ players feel this way??

What about throughout the league?? Does signing Laine “long term” help or hurt the teams chances of possibly adding a significant player through free agency??

While there is absolutely no excusing Laine being lazy, and there’s of course that reputation he has and has earned throughout his career thus far, management and Larsen were willing to wipe the slate clean for him last year in year 2 of the Laine/CBJ experiment and he was way better with his effort. Maybe we can credit torts to that, at least partially, but I don’t think it would be appropriate for the jackets to wipe the slate clean with him and then use his past against him in contract negotiations.

Also lol at MDZ, of all players, to complain about laziness and defensive liability. He’s not wrong, but that’s a pot calling the kettle black.