Ovechkin vs Laine comparison.

[Asmola]

That's fine, but that does not change the fact that the statement "Laine was better/did more than Ovechkin internationally by the age of 20" is factually incorrect.
We do not know what would have happened if Laine also played in WJC U18 in 2016, which he could not do due to his birthdate missing the cutoff by a week or so. I doubt he would have collected 15g+5a in 7gp to match Ovechkin's totals in both WJCs, but who knows. But the fact is that Ovechkin did play in the second WJC U18, did score 2 goals per game, and he gets credit for that.
The same is true for WJC U20 - Laine could have played as 17-year-old as Ovechkin did, but did not. He could have played as a 19-year-old, but he was not able to because of his NHL contract. Maybe had he played, he would have accumulated a better WJC U20 resume than Ovechkin. Or maybe not.

That's essentially the flipside of the situation with NHL: Ovechkin missed the draft cutoff by 2 days, spent another year in Russia, and now he is getting grief for scoring in the Russian league at a higher ppg than prime Datsyuk, who was his Dynamo teammate in 2004/05. Folks just look at his RSL ppg, look at Laine's NHL ppg, and go "Laine's NHL ppg is higher, and NHL>RSL, so Laine is much better".

Actually Laine played WJC U20 at 17-year-old, which was only U20 he have played. At 18, he was already in NHL.

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

He hasn't been winning though. Ovi's rookie year he was 3rd in goals and in points (on a garbage team). Laine's second year after the draft, he was 2nd in goals and 34th in points.

I did make a longish comment on that bolded one somewhere in this same thread. But I can’t give it a rest. So here I go again .

I don’t understand how in any way does being in a garbage _team_ diminish your _personal_ points. If you are a great player like Ovy (or even generational like Mario, or the Great One, or just a great player like Bure for example).

Of course if you do have fabulous linemates, your point totals should rise even more. But If you are the _best_ player in your team, and generally better than the ”average best player” in your opposing teams, you will be in a really good position to gain personal points. Your team will probably suck anyway, but that isn’t the thing we are arguing here. Personal scoring.

And I would like to see a valid argument against that.

Btw. I think that Ovy and Laine are quite comparable in their teens. And Ovy DID take a big step forward when he turned 20. And Laine MIGHT do the same.

 

[shtorm2005]

And I would like to see a valid argument against that.

Having a lot of points in a garbage team shows how your gameplay is independed of quality of your linemates. Players that need good linemates for them to perform, most probably would have much less points in a weak team. These two players are on different level each even if they have similar stats.

But, in Laine's defense, I would say that if he played in a garbage team, he would probably develop differently. But, at least, we would get answer if he's Ovy's like player.

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

Having a lot of points in a garbage team shows how your gameplay is independed of quality of your linemates. Players that need good linemates for them to perform, most probably would have much less points in a weak team.

Yes, thats exactly my point.

If you’re a player with ”only normal-level of a goodness” (majority of NHL-level players are really good) it of course makes it much harder to gain personal points if your team is bad. As you are playing against players with the same skill level, or above, and you’re not getting any extra help from your teammates.

But. If you are extraordinally good. Like Ovy. And the rest of your team ”sucks”. You will be getting lots of icetime and your coach is trying to put you on ice every time there is even a slight possibility to score. Generally if you’re clearly better player than your opponents, it doesn’t matter how much the opponents are focusing on you. You’ll still dominate.

And lets be clear. There are NO garbage players in the NHL. Your linemates might not be ”great”, but if YOU really are it doesn’t matter. Your opponents won’t be able to play like 5v1 to block you. You still are not alone on the ice, even with NHL-level ”crappy” linemates. Thats beer league stuff.

So. My point is. When talking about the GREAT hockey players (Ovy, Crosby, Mario, etc.) there is no point in saying they scored a lot while in a crappy team. Of COURSE they did. They would have scored anyway. If they weren’t they wouldn’t be GREAT players. Only good ones...

Sorry about these long postings .

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

Actually Laine played WJC U20 at 17-year-old, which was only U20 he have played. At 18, he was already in NHL.

Yep. And for @Psych0dad s defence (not that he needs anyone else to defend him ) the comparable WJCs (U20) for Ovy and Laine (both 17 years old):

Ovy: 6GP, 6+1
Laine: 7GP, 7+6

And thats all WJC U20 games Laine ever played.

Ovy did participate at WJC two more times, and if you want to know what Ovy did when he was 18: 6GP, 5+2. And when 19 years old: 6GP: 7+4.

So you _could_ say Ovy never surpassed Laines ”level” at U20. Not even when being two years older than him. But I won’t say so. These are just so called statistical facts.

You’ll never know what Laine might have done at 18 or 19 years old in WJC. And you won’t be able to say what Ovy might have done at NHL at that age. Pure speculation.

 

[Acallabeth]

Only on hfboards a 13 goal "KHL" season is better than 44 goal NHL season.

Just as there's no other place where a 70 point season is as good as the 3rd most prolific rookie season of all time.

Laine is amazing, he's a great talent and seems to be a good guy, but there's literally no sane man who would pick his 1st 2 seasons over Ovechkin's.

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

Laine is amazing, he's a great talent and seems to be a good guy, but there's literally no sane man who would pick his 1st 2 seasons over Ovechkin's.

You’re absolutely right in there. But no-one is actually doing that... this thread is pure speculation and I think it is also the whole point why we are writing here.

We all know what Ovi did and is still doing. I could bet that even most of the ”Lainefanboys” are also fans of Ovechkin. Or at least I am just thrilled that there is a young player playing in the league whose teenage years are - if not similar - comparable to the teenage years of the ”greatest goalscorer ever”.

Who knows what might come out when that player no longer is a teenager.

 

[Varan]

You’re absolutely right in there. But no-one is actually doing that... this thread is pure speculation and I think it is also the whole point why we are writing here.

We all know what Ovi did and is still doing. I could bet that even most of the ”Lainefanboys” are also fans of Ovechkin. Or at least I am just thrilled that there is a young player playing in the league whose teenage years are - if not similar - comparable to the teenage years of the ”greatest goalscorer ever”.

Who knows what might come out when that player no longer is a teenager.

exactly, so this thread is useless. It should be created after April 2019

 

[Subway Schenn]

Go back and go watch some Ovechkin tape from 2004-11.

 

[Varan]

Question for Laine fans: if he doesn’t hit at the very least, 50 goals this upcoming year, would you finally say that OV’s rookie seasons are better than Laines?

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

exactly, so this thread is useless. It should be created after April 2019

Well, it is useless if you don’t want to use your imagination. If you don’t enjoy the feeling at christmas when none of the presents are yet opened. If you don’t care about one of the best things in the world: anticipation and enjoying the anticipation of the others.

If you just observe the facts of life. If you don’t have dreams. If this is you, then you’re right. This thread is useless.

For you.

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

Question for Laine fans: if he doesn’t hit at the very least, 50 goals this upcoming year, would you finally say that OV’s rookie seasons are better than Laines?

I don’t know. What’s the point? As he will hit at least 50 goals this upcoming year .

 

[Varan]

Well, it is useless if you don’t want to use your imagination. If you don’t enjoy the feeling at christmas when none of the presents are yet opened. If you don’t care about one of the best things in the world: anticipation and enjoying the anticipation of the others.

If you just observe the facts of life. If you don’t have dreams. If this is you, then you’re right. This thread is useless.

For you.

wow

 

[AirJordan]

Btw. I think that Ovy and Laine are quite comparable in their teens. And Ovy DID take a big step forward when he turned 20. And Laine MIGHT do the same.

no and no and no... ovechkin was at 16 a pretty safe 1oa pick. he went ahead of malkin ... IF laine were something close to that what ovechkin was, he never ever went 2nd oa. but stat watching alone without any context can't tell you that. and thats the point, instead of comparing their skills at the same Age (pretty well documented online), for example you could tell me in what exactly laine was better at than teen ovi (yes, the one timer and thats it), your and others ONLY argument are stats without any context (Puljujärvi scored 17 Points as an 17 year old at the WJC U20, maybe he is better too)... simple as that... 18 year old ovechkin would literally destroy laine physically and was easy on another stratosphere when we talk about Skating. his Hands at top speed were bure like... but but but, laine scored against Belarus and Germany, so he has to be better!!!

 

[filinski77]

I did make a longish comment on that bolded one somewhere in this same thread. But I can’t give it a rest. So here I go again .

I don’t understand how in any way does being in a garbage _team_ diminish your _personal_ points. If you are a great player like Ovy (or even generational like Mario, or the Great One, or just a great player like Bure for example).

Of course if you do have fabulous linemates, your point totals should rise even more. But If you are the _best_ player in your team, and generally better than the ”average best player” in your opposing teams, you will be in a really good position to gain personal points. Your team will probably suck anyway, but that isn’t the thing we are arguing here. Personal scoring.

And I would like to see a valid argument against that.

Btw. I think that Ovy and Laine are quite comparable in their teens. And Ovy DID take a big step forward when he turned 20. And Laine MIGHT do the same.

This is exactly my point though? I'm not diminishing anyone's personal points, simply putting it into context. 106 points on a team where you almost double up on second place is far more impressive than 106 points on let's say the Lightning from last year.

The whole point is that Laine has far better players surrounded by him than Ovechkin did, and regardless of TOI, he still had a better situation right out of the gate to succeed.

If Ovi would have had better even strength line mates, and one of the top power plays in the league to feast on, it's more likely than not that he would have succeeded the 106 points he did get. But he didn't, but the 106 points and 3rd places finishes speak for themselves anyways.

 

[FinRanger]

Laine has played too much Fortnite this summer. 970 wins and counting. 8 hours Fortnite per day. He is going to be the best shooter in Fortnite and not NHL at this pace.

 

[Psych0dad]

This is exactly my point though? I'm not diminishing anyone's personal points, simply putting it into context. 106 points on a team where you almost double up on second place is far more impressive than 106 points on let's say the Lightning from last year.

The whole point is that Laine has far better players surrounded by him than Ovechkin did, and regardless of TOI, he still had a better situation right out of the gate to succeed.

If Ovi would have had better even strength line mates, and one of the top power plays in the league to feast on, it's more likely than not that he would have succeeded the 106 points he did get. But he didn't, but the 106 points and 3rd places finishes speak for themselves anyways.

Ov didn't have to play with Brian Little. And he played over twice the PP time.

Today coming even close to those numbers is a lot more difficult than back then.

But you can ignore all that, and the age difference, and declare what you want. I just don't have to agree with it.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Ov didn't have to play with Brian Little. And he played over twice the PP time.

Today coming even close to those numbers is a lot more difficult than back then.

But you can ignore all that, and the age difference, and declare what you want. I just don't have to agree with it.

Why can't he make Little better? That's what I'm looking for from a line driver.

 

[Romang67]

Ov didn't have to play with Brian Little. And he played over twice the PP time.

Today coming even close to those numbers is a lot more difficult than back then.

But you can ignore all that, and the age difference, and declare what you want. I just don't have to agree with it.

You're not trying to argue that Ovechkin's linemates in his rookie year were better, are you?

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

no and no and no... [lots of really objective argumentation removed]

OK.

 

[oXo Cube]

Now we're going down the Laine has been held back by his teammates angle?

At this point it would honestly be less embarrassing if you guys just owned it and admitted that you don't know anything about Ovechkin or the Capitals circa 2005-06.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Question for Laine fans: if he doesn’t hit at the very least, 50 goals this upcoming year, would you finally say that OV’s rookie seasons are better than Laines?

I'm actually disappointed if he doesn't hit 50 this year

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

This is exactly my point though? I'm not diminishing anyone's personal points, simply putting it into context. 106 points on a team where you almost double up on second place is far more impressive than 106 points on let's say the Lightning from last year.

You got it wrong. I am not saying YOU are diminishing his points. I am saying that points won’t generally be diminished if a really great player is playing in a ”garbage” team. If they are, the player isn’t a great player.

Though I am not arguing that the great players would actually gain _more_ points in that kind of situation, but I am saying that the argument does not make the accomplishment any more impressive.

What it might highlight, is that there is no doubt that the player is... well... great.

Compare this for example to the Gretzky-Kurri situation. For many it became obvious that Kurri actually is a very good player, when he put up over 100pts and won an another cup after Gretzky left. Before that... well. There were (and still are though) plenty of people saying he is just a product of the Great one.

 

[Halberdier]

You're not trying to argue that Ovechkin's linemates in his rookie year were better, are you?

I don't know, but do you think they were worse than Andrew Copp? As so far the excellent 4th liner Copp has been miles better linemate for Laine than Bryan Little, at least if Ehlers is the other winger.

 

[IPS]

So disregard Ovechkin's linemates in his rookie year, his ineligibility for the NHL under age 20, pay no attention that Laine will have 160+ games of NHL experience going into his "comparable year" for Ovechkin's rookie year, all while taking into consideration that Paul Maurice and Bryan Little have conspired behind the scenes to ruin Laine's production, AND claiming Ovechkin was just some nobody in the Russian league who couldn't put up elite numbers there and magically turned 1st-tier superstar the minute he stepped into the NHL so Laine >>> Ovechkin up to this point unequivocally.

Don't think I've ever seen this level of special pleading being demanded for a player. Jesus christ stop embarrassing yourselves already it's getting tough to watch.