Ovechkin vs Laine comparison.

[shtorm2005]

Seems like the far more likely scenario is that it actually was tougher to score on that team than in the NHL, for whatever reasons.

I think RSL had slow, no contact and positional hockey. Ovy's game was more suited for NHL.

 

[Alf the dwarf]

I think RSL had slow, no contact and positional hockey. Ovy's game was more suited for NHL.

Yeah, I also think that RSL were after all better league than NHL now back then.

There vere more skilled players with lesser shot, hands and speed. the positioning was also so epic. They just stood still which makes it hard for fast skater with big ice.

 

[GoCaps2004]

I don't know what you are talking about. There are some immediate factual errors that popped up to me when reading your post.

A) How would Ovechkin have 8 pts in WHC as an 18 year old rookie? Jagr had the record at 6, Laine doubled it. Scored more goals than Jagr had pts.

B) How were there 14 games in WJC for Ovechkin? How is that possible in a tournament where you play maximum of 10 games IF you make the finals?

Que?

Are you sure you are evaluating players honestly?

this is the post of the year. Incredible hockey knowledge, combined with incredible reading comprehension. 10/10

 

[Zamuz]

When 19 years old Ovechkin had a better PPG than prime Pavel Datsyuk on the same team. He only played 37 games, so yeah his totals weren't spectacular. Some players played nearly 60 games, doesn't really seem like a fair comparison.

Datsyuk put up 32 points in 47 games on the same team at 25 years old. Here's his PPG in the years around that.

03-04: 0.91 PPG in the NHL
04-05: 0.68 PPG in Russia
05-06: 1.16 PPG in the NHL

Are we supposed to believe he was a great NHL player, got really bad for some reason at 25, then turned into a superstar at 26? Seems like the far more likely scenario is that it actually was tougher to score on that team than in the NHL for some players, for whatever reasons.

You guys act like Ovechkin was some mediocre player at 19 and an absolutely superstar at 20. That would require a "Teen Wolf-esque" transformation that just doesn't happen.

Maybe it's because Datsyuk had to adjust from NHL back to bigger european ice while Ovechkin had been playing in european ice his entire life without needing to jump from NHL ice to EU ice. Also I can imagine that since it was a lockout season, many NHL players took it easy to not get injured when the actual games start in their own real teams.

Argue all you want, you will never have a solid argument on the fact Laine scored 44 goals against the very best when Ovechkin scored 13 in Russian league at the same ages.

Only on hfboards a 13 goal "KHL" season is better than 44 goal NHL season.

 

[Bobby Orr's Knees]

Ovechkin's numbers playing in Russia are irrelevant. They have no impact on the conversation. Ovechkin was (and is) on a different level than Laine. Now, with McDavid and Crosby, we'd have a legit conversation. In the case of Ovie and Laine, it doesn't matter what numbers you decide to use to support the narrative. Ovie is a better player. One of the all-time greats. Honestly, the number spinning is a pretty useless exercise in this case.

 

[Alf the dwarf]

Ovechkin's numbers playing in Russia are irrelevant. They have no impact on the conversation. Ovechkin was (and is) on a different level than Laine. Now, with McDavid and Crosby, we'd have a legit conversation. In the case of Ovie and Laine, it doesn't matter what numbers you decide to use to support the narrative. Ovie is a better player. One of the all-time greats. Honestly, the number spinning is a pretty useless exercise in this case.

Laines goals in NHL are also irrelevant even if he scores 0 next season. Hes on a different level.

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

So coach is the reason he doubled his goal and point totals? development has nothing to do with him, he is the same 40 point player but with a better coach. Give him the same coach and he is a 40 point guy you say?

"That's the main reason, plus a ton of other stuff". And "It's too much stuff involved to compare development between players so easily".

 

[GoCaps2004]

Laines goals in NHL are also irrelevant even if he scores 0 next season. Hes on a different level.

You are adding nothing to the conversation, while trying to over-exaggerate your knowledge with a snarky response. It has already been laid out, but you have chosen to ignore what people have said because it doesn't fit your narrative. Scoring in the Russian League was much lower than the current scoring levels in the NHL. Thus, they really are not comparable.

Also, as many other people have already noted, again which you have ignored, is that Laine has benefitted from being surrounded by an actual hockey team. The Jets had 7 players in his rookie and 6 in his sophomore season that scored more than 45 points. He also has yet to lead his team in points. The capitals, on the other hand, in Ovechkin's first season, had only 2 players with more than 45 points-- Zubrus with 57, then Ovechkin with 106, nearly double what the second highest scoring player on his team put up.

Laine, the guy your trying to compare to Ovi, has yet to lead his team in points, and has the benefit of starting his career playing with competent NHLers. This comparison is currently laughable.

 

[Alf the dwarf]

Comparing to teen Ovechkin who played in russia while Laine already in NHL. Haven't compared to prime ovechkin or NHL rookie Ovechkin. Learn to read. You are the one who's taking things out of context now.

 

[psycat]

Maybe it's because Datsyuk had to adjust from NHL back to bigger european ice while Ovechkin had been playing in european ice his entire life without needing to jump from NHL ice to EU ice. Also I can imagine that since it was a lockout season, many NHL players took it easy to not get injured when the actual games start in their own real teams.

Argue all you want, you will never have a solid argument on the fact Laine scored 44 goals against the very best when Ovechkin scored 13 in Russian league at the same ages.

Only on hfboards a 13 goal "KHL" season is better than 44 goal NHL season.

Ovi didn't see to have much trouble adjusting the very next year.

 

[Plural]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. If Laine gets more explosive and stronger this offseason, he might surprise a lot of us. There is a huge amount of untapped potential there. Will he be able to tap it next season or the season after that we will see.

 

[kelsier]

What I find amusing here is reading posts where people actually compare their 18 & 19 (or even 17yo) old seasons and make it sound like it's even close, or point out how hard it was to score goals in the RSL (like it wasn't the same in FEL 15-16). If we look at Laine's pre-draft resume before even leaving Europe, he had already lead his team to the Cup in the FEL at age 17-18, which is unheard of considering this was one of the top leagues in the Europe. He didn't just leave it to that before jumping over the bond but put up a quite a show in the WHC (not WJC) by destroying Jagr's record while having just turned 18. This is quite far from everyday "euro" hockey but rather something you might get to see once or twice in the lifetime.

So at age of 18 he scores 36 goals in the NHL, followed by a 44 goal campaign in the sophomore year. No matter how much an other guy dominates vs juniors at the same age and at the same time has an ok'ish season in an European league, the difference is still like a night and day. Laine checks out on all three point marks, ages 17, 18 and 19 and by ease. None of that is a knock at the other as we actually do know what became of Ovechkin. He also left the fourth benchmark extremely high and Laine will have to be on tear the entire season in this match up, and he'll also need a lot more gametime than the plus sixteen minute a game to even contend. Being part of a winning team has it's disadvantages and it can really restrict the freedom you can do on the ice (as opposed to non-contending/rebuilding teams). Anyone can judge forehand and predict a failure or what not, but then again there's nothing new there. If Hfboards had any say in the matter he might have barely scored 30 goals combined from the last past 2 years. Luckily that's not reality and who knows, maybe he'll again defy all odds and do something entirely unexpected come 2018-19.

Anyway, as players they make bad comparables because their games are so different, but of course when both are 'one of the kind' goal scorers, this talk will never cease or see the end of day. They're both great players and I'm just glad I got the chance to see both play at the same time and era.

 

[Zuluss]

A) How would Ovechkin have 8 pts in WHC as an 18 year old rookie?

Ovechkin was 19 in May 2005.

B) How were there 14 games in WJC for Ovechkin? How is that possible in a tournament where you play maximum of 10 games IF you make the finals?

Ovechkin played in 2 WJC U18 (2002, 2003) and 3 WJC U20 (2003, 2004, 2005).

Are you sure you are evaluating players honestly?

Are you sure you read at least Ovechkin's and Laine's Wikipedia pages before comparing them?
I am not even talking about having been around in 2003-2005 and having watched teenager Ovechkin play.

 

[Zuluss]

You know the problem here is that Laine only had an one ”opportunity” to play in both WJC:s and was at both times seriously underaged. He started at NHL when he was 18 you know...

So of course Ovys resume is longer. As he could and was willing to attend to WJCs as he was not playing in NHL when he was under 20 years old.

That's fine, but that does not change the fact that the statement "Laine was better/did more than Ovechkin internationally by the age of 20" is factually incorrect.
We do not know what would have happened if Laine also played in WJC U18 in 2016, which he could not do due to his birthdate missing the cutoff by a week or so. I doubt he would have collected 15g+5a in 7gp to match Ovechkin's totals in both WJCs, but who knows. But the fact is that Ovechkin did play in the second WJC U18, did score 2 goals per game, and he gets credit for that.
The same is true for WJC U20 - Laine could have played as 17-year-old as Ovechkin did, but did not. He could have played as a 19-year-old, but he was not able to because of his NHL contract. Maybe had he played, he would have accumulated a better WJC U20 resume than Ovechkin. Or maybe not.

That's essentially the flipside of the situation with NHL: Ovechkin missed the draft cutoff by 2 days, spent another year in Russia, and now he is getting grief for scoring in the Russian league at a higher ppg than prime Datsyuk, who was his Dynamo teammate in 2004/05. Folks just look at his RSL ppg, look at Laine's NHL ppg, and go "Laine's NHL ppg is higher, and NHL>RSL, so Laine is much better".

 

[Carlzner]

Maybe it's because Datsyuk had to adjust from NHL back to bigger european ice while Ovechkin had been playing in european ice his entire life without needing to jump from NHL ice to EU ice. Also I can imagine that since it was a lockout season, many NHL players took it easy to not get injured when the actual games start in their own real teams.

Argue all you want, you will never have a solid argument on the fact Laine scored 44 goals against the very best when Ovechkin scored 13 in Russian league at the same ages.

Only on hfboards a 13 goal "KHL" season is better than 44 goal NHL season.

Boy you guys are really doing some mental gymnastics.

 

[Psych0dad]

Ovechkin was 19 in May 2005.



Ovechkin played in 2 WJC U18 (2002, 2003) and 3 WJC U20 (2003, 2004, 2005).



Are you sure you read at least Ovechkin's and Laine's Wikipedia pages before comparing them?
I am not even talking about having been around in 2003-2005 and having watched teenager Ovechkin play.

That's what I was saying, those are not accurate comparisons since they are of different age. And using two tournaments to one.

I watched Ovechkin play in WJC, WHC and EHT before NHL.

 

[Hokinaittii]

Let's just wait and see how Laine is able to improve his game before comparing him to Ovechkin as player or his feats because those will be very hard to match.

On the other hand, if someone is going to touch Ovie's goal totals in the future, it's going to be Laine so we shouldn't immediately write him off either like some people have.

 

[22FUTON9]

When 19 years old Ovechkin had a better PPG than prime Pavel Datsyuk on the same team. He only played 37 games, so yeah his totals weren't spectacular. Some players played nearly 60 games, doesn't really seem like a fair comparison.

Datsyuk put up 32 points in 47 games on the same team at 25 years old. Here's his PPG in the years around that.

03-04: 0.91 PPG in the NHL
04-05: 0.68 PPG in Russia
05-06: 1.16 PPG in the NHL

Are we supposed to believe he was a great NHL player, got really bad for some reason at 25, then turned into a superstar at 26? Seems like the far more likely scenario is that it actually was tougher to score on that team than in the NHL for some players, for whatever reasons.

You guys act like Ovechkin was some mediocre player at 19 and an absolutely superstar at 20. That would require a "Teen Wolf-esque" transformation that just doesn't happen.

I've been saying this (bringing nhl stars stats in the rsl) forever in this thread but Laine fans continue to ignore this when its probably one of the best indications of how the rsl was and where ovechkin compares

 

[Psych0dad]

Let's just wait and see how Laine is able to improve his game before comparing him to Ovechkin as player or his feats because those will be very hard to match.

On the other hand, if someone is going to touch Ovie's goal totals in the future, it's going to be Laine so we shouldn't immediately write him off either like some people have.

Yeah I don't get why people are so quick to judge. So far so good. His pace has been better than Ovechkins so far. It's not insane to suggest it will stay that way too.

Shouldn't write him off when he has been winning.

 

[Alf the dwarf]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. If Laine gets more explosive and stronger this offseason, he might surprise a lot of us. There is a huge amount of untapped potential there. Will he be able to tap it next season or the season after that we will see.

That's true. And it might also be that it all goes down from now on. The sweet thing about being a fan is the ups and doens of your idol who brings them to your life.

 

[Varan]

i said this at 13 pages and ill say it again, i can't believe this thread is at 20 pages

 

[filinski77]

Yeah I don't get why people are so quick to judge. So far so good. His pace has been better than Ovechkins so far. It's not insane to suggest it will stay that way too.

Shouldn't write him off when he has been winning.

He hasn't been winning though. Ovi's rookie year he was 3rd in goals and in points (on a garbage team). Laine's second year after the draft, he was 2nd in goals and 34th in points.

Not close at all. Don't try and talk about how it's Laine's 3rd season that should be compared to Ovi's first. There's still no sound argument to why that should be the case, given my examples of Matthews vs. Laine etc.

Sure, one day Laine could explode and score 70, who knows. But to say that you think that is the case because Laine is already ahead or winning, is false.

 

[tapi]

Laine should have taken this whole offseason to work solely on his skating. Unfortunately reports tell that he has instead been working on building up his shot's maximum speed. I see him regressing over the following seasons with this kind of training regimen

 

[HTFN]

I don't think you guys get it, if the players aren't born on exactly the same day I'm afraid we just can't compare them.

 

[DRW204]

Laine should have taken this whole offseason to work solely on his skating. Unfortunately reports tell that he has instead been working on building up his shot's maximum speed. I see him regressing over the following seasons with this kind of training regimen

Where are you getting this from?