Ovechkin vs Laine comparison.

[grieves]

i'm talking about this and how you followed it up in post 422

Well I guess I read the context clues wrong then because it sure seemed like you were definitely involving me. Glad that is clarified.

I didn't randomize anything. I've sorted 155(-1) games by TOI and divided by two equal halves. I can agree that 155GP it's small sample size but I'm working with what I've got.

You didn't randomize anything. Randomization is what occurs naturally.

 

[shtorm2005]

No, it's the fault of the chemistry between the two. Little has been awesome in other combos, as has Laine.

Chemistry, PP time, IceTime... Of course when everything will set up for Laine he will score more. But it's not always the case in NHL. If stars align for Ovy, I can see him score 100 goals.

 

[cupface52]

Laine didn't play a lot with Scheifele at EV but even if you throw Ovie with Little-Ehlers, and a combo of Buff/Morrissey/Trouba/Myers/Enstrom on the back end that's far better than the talent on those WSH teams.

Laine played w/ Wheeler-Buff-Scheifele-Connor/Stastny on the PP. Put young Ovie on there...jesus.

Ovie would have been the best winger on Winnipeg so the top line would be based around Scheifele-Ovechkin rather than Scheifele-Wheeler. It's how Laine/Jets fans do hypotheticals right?

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The problem with this Laine has been held back by his place in the lineup argument is that Ovechkin would not have been in the same circumstance, because he would have been the best player on the Jets and it wouldn't really have been close.

Laine is now at the same age when Ovechkin entered his rookie season. So we'll see how it goes.

 

[HTFN]

I agree that there are plenty of external factors, but I would say that it's not so much about the quality of line-mates rather than the chemistry between the players. Laine for example played much better offensively with Andrew Copp, but no-one would argue that Copp is a better player than Little.

I don't know anything about the chemistry of Ovi's line at 20yo, but I'm glad it worked out for him. This is a team game after all.

But in any case, hockey is soon upon us and we can see what Laine can come up with in his comparable season. No one is denying that he is against some hardcore players here.

this is ****ing egregious.

Putting it on "chemistry", then saying Ovi's line worked out for him? This is some of the most intellectually dishonest bull**** in this whole thread.

He dragged production out of players, that's why he outproduced the team by a mile. You could have put a young Ovechkin with Copp or Little and it wouldn't matter to him, he's going to find a way to put that puck in the net.

 

[Randyne]

You didn't randomize anything. Randomization is what occurs naturally.

...Checked Ovi's first two seasons the same result as Laine's. Very strange.
Checked all Ovi's games. I'm shocked:
268 goals in 501 games with the most TOI (from 20:52 to 29:30)
339 goals in 501 games with the least TOI (from 4:50 to 20:52)
How is that possible? 'More TOI = more goals' statement is not working, or I'm doing something wrong?
Please explain me.

 

[HTFN]

...Checked Ovi's first two seasons the same result as Laine's. Very strange.
Checked all Ovi's games. I'm shocked:
268 goals in 501 games on the most TOI (from 20:52 to 29:30)
339 goals in 501 games on the least TOI (from 4:50 to 20:52)
How is that possible? 'More TOI = more goals' statement is not working, or I'm doing something wrong?
Please explain me.

I've heard this explained as:

More TOI = need goals = losing the game = more likely to be playing against a "better" team, or better players.
Less TOI = regular shifts = may be winning the game = likely to have already scored.

Seems like Jets fans should start hoping their team gets dramatically worse. Maybe Laine can reach Ovechkin's level if he plays with something resembling Ovechkin's defense. You can't learn to be a one-man show when you're all wrapped up in a safety blanket.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Laine is now at the same age when Ovechkin entered his rookie season. So we'll see how it goes.

Actually he'll be 5 months older. He should really surpass everything Ovechkin did in his rookie year, since Laine will be the older one in this comparison.

 

[Randyne]

I've heard this explained as:

More TOI = need goals = losing the game = more likely to be playing against a "better" team, or better players.
Less TOI = regular shifts = may be winning the game = likely to have already scored.

Seems like Jets fans should start hoping their team gets dramatically worse. Maybe Laine can reach Ovechkin's level if he plays with something resembling Ovechkin's defense. You can't learn to be a one-man show when you're all wrapped up in a safety blanket.

Good explanation. Thanks.

 

[Romang67]

I've heard this explained as:

More TOI = need goals = losing the game = more likely to be playing against a "better" team, or better players.
Less TOI = regular shifts = may be winning the game = likely to have already scored.

Seems like Jets fans should start hoping their team gets dramatically worse. Maybe Laine can reach Ovechkin's level if he plays with something resembling Ovechkin's defense. You can't learn to be a one-man show when you're all wrapped up in a safety blanket.

Please don't drag us into this discussion. In no way is the "Laine will be the best goalscorer in history" claim championed by Jets fans.

 

[HTFN]

Please don't drag us into this discussion. In no way is the "Laine will be the best goalscorer in history" claim championed by Jets fans.

Oh yeah. I did genuinely forget that while a variety of Leaf fans are behind Matthews/Tavares hype, and Capitals/Pens fans were at the root of the Crosby/Ovechkin threads, this does pretty much just seem to be Finnish people with Jets avatars and one or two outliers.

 

[Asmola]

Laine have scored 5+2 in his last 2 games, not bad. With his current condition he might actually beat Ovi's rookie stats if he plays with center not named Little.

 

[IPS]

Laine is simply not capable of generating individual offense to the level young Ovechkin was doing it. Ovie's skating was insanely explosive and he could constantly create prime chances off the rush. Laine's skating isn't nearly as good, he's not built for creating those types of chances. He requires set-up men to to create chances for him in his prime scoring spots. If he doesn't get that, he looks like garbage. Much like how he ended the 16-17 season with 3 points in 10 games when he was taken off Scheifele's line (where the Jets proceeded to go on their best winning stretch of the season too).

 

[filinski77]

Actually he'll be 5 months older. He should really surpass everything Ovechkin did in his rookie year, since Laine will be the older one in this comparison.

Yes, which is why it's clear that this passed year is the most fair comparison to Ovi's rookie year, since the age gap between the 2 scenarios (Laine's 3rd vs. Ovi's rookie or Laine's 2nd) is only 2 months, yet Laine still benefits from a year of NHL experience.

It's also their respective 2nd year after the draft, which is how 99% of the hockey community compare players, not by using months and other silly excuses to boost someone else, evident as how you see no one trying to say that Laine and Matthews can't compared in the same season, since Laine is 7 months younger than Matthews.

 

[Zuluss]

So what was the problem then in the Russian league? Ovis stats at the same age needs some serious explaining if you want to go this route.

2004/05 was a lockout year and a lot of NHL players played in Russia. Dynamo 2004/05 was a stacked team and won both the regular season and the playoffs. On the other hand, the league was relatively low-scoring and Dynamo always preferred to spread the offense across the lines and play a tight defensive game: prime Datsyuk played on the Dynamo that year too, and scored 15g+17a in 47 gp (so do 13g+14a in 37 gp from 19-year-old Ovechkin look all that bad in comparison?)

A better indication of Ovechkin's status as a 19-year-old was that he went to play in the WHC (which was essentially Olympic-level hockey due to the lockout in the NHL), scored 5g+3a in 8gp and led the team in both goals and points.

 

[Psych0dad]

No, it's the fault of the chemistry between the two. Little has been awesome in other combos, as has Laine.

We have to disagree at least once. Little made all of his linemates worse last season, didn't he? He wasn't good even outside ELL. Better maybe, but not awesome.

 

[Psych0dad]

2004/05 was a lockout year and a lot of NHL players played in Russia. Dynamo 2004/05 was a stacked team and won both the regular season and the playoffs. On the other hand, the league was relatively low-scoring and Dynamo always preferred to spread the offense across the lines and play a tight defensive game: prime Datsyuk played on the Dynamo that year too, and scored 15g+17a in 47 gp (so do 13g+14a in 37 gp from 19-year-old Ovechkin look all that bad in comparison?)

A better indication of Ovechkin's status as a 19-year-old was that he went to play in the WHC (which was essentially Olympic-level hockey due to the lockout in the NHL), scored 5g+3a in 8gp and led the team in both goals and points.

I agree that the international tournaments pre-NHL are the best way to gauge the players level at that time.

Laine at barely 18 broke the European record for WHC points held by Jagr. Didn't just break it, he doubled it.

All of Laines junior years stats and accomplishments are well ahead of OV.

 

[Peggy]

Laine is simply not capable of generating individual offense to the level young Ovechkin was doing it. Ovie's skating was insanely explosive and he could constantly create prime chances off the rush. Laine's skating isn't nearly as good, he's not built for creating those types of chances. He requires set-up men to to create chances for him in his prime scoring spots. If he doesn't get that, he looks like garbage. Much like how he ended the 16-17 season with 3 points in 10 games when he was taken off Scheifele's line (where the Jets proceeded to go on their best winning stretch of the season too).

Laine is capable of generating his own plays. Ive seen it
Id post the clip where Laine starts the play in his own zone, passes it to ehlers to make some space, gets the puck puck, does a little deke in between some players to get space again and scores

Laine is better than you guys like to think he is when you call him one dimensional

 

[Zamuz]

Laine is simply not capable of generating individual offense to the level young Ovechkin was doing it. Ovie's skating was insanely explosive and he could constantly create prime chances off the rush. Laine's skating isn't nearly as good, he's not built for creating those types of chances. He requires set-up men to to create chances for him in his prime scoring spots. If he doesn't get that, he looks like garbage. Much like how he ended the 16-17 season with 3 points in 10 games when he was taken off Scheifele's line (where the Jets proceeded to go on their best winning stretch of the season too).

When 19 years old, Laine scored 44 goals and finished 2nd in goal scoring in the best league in the world.

When 19 years old, Ovechkin scored 13 goals and finished 41st in goal scoring, not even in the best league in the world.

The thing is, Ovechkin developed from that player and you think Laine won't? wait until Laine gets his feet moving and learns the game even more, he will be an absolute force.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Laine is capable of generating his own plays. Ive seen it
Id post the clip where Laine starts the play in his own zone, passes it to ehlers to make some space, gets the puck puck, does a little deke in between some players to get space again and scores

Laine is better than you guys like to think he is when you call him one dimensional

The extremely difficult to pull off give and go.

 

[Peggy]

The extremely difficult to pull off give and go.

I unno what you're trying to prove
But the point is Laine is able to generate his own plays against nhlers

Sorry, try again

 

[HTFN]

Laine is capable of generating his own plays. Ive seen it
Id post the clip where Laine starts the play in his own zone, passes it to ehlers to make some space, gets the puck puck, does a little deke in between some players to get space again and scores

Laine is better than you guys like to think he is when you call him one dimensional

Ovechkin would have started the play in his own zone, shot out of it like a cannonball, blown past everybody, and scored through/walked around the defenseman like he wasn't even there.

Laine has to make space, Ovechkin forced people to catch up.

When 19 years old, Laine scored 44 goals and finished 2nd in goal scoring in the best league in the world.

When 19 years old, Ovechkin scored 13 goals and finished 41st in goal scoring, not even in the best league in the world.

The thing is, Ovechkin developed from that player and you think Laine won't? wait until Laine gets his feet moving and learns the game even more, he will be an absolute force.

Yes.

Laine couldn't get his feet moving at Ovechkin's level if his life depended on it, and you're not using statistics right, like, at all. To borrow a point from another poster, go look at Pavel Datsyuk's stats for the same year, same team. Datsyuk didn't just magically get worse as a player anymore than you think Ovechkin magically got better, so why's he so significantly under a PPG pace? Or maybe the RSL may not have been the best league in the world, but Dynamo Moscow is aces at player development. After all, look what Datsyuk and Ovechkin could do after being coached there.

It's pretty obvious that Laine won't come close unless the Jets are willing to loan him to the KHL or wait for the next lockout.

 

[SkinsFan09]

Laine is now at the same age when Ovechkin entered his rookie season. So we'll see how it goes.

Playing with way more talent and with NHL experience.

 

[Peggy]

Ovechkin would have started the play in his own zone, shot out of it like a cannonball, blown past everybody, and scored through/walked around the defenseman like he wasn't even there.

Laine has to make space, Ovechkin forced people to catch up.


Yes.

Laine couldn't get his feet moving at Ovechkin's level if his life depended on it, and you're not using statistics right, like, at all. To borrow a point from another poster, go look at Pavel Datsyuk's stats for the same year, same team. Datsyuk didn't just magically get worse as a player anymore than you think Ovechkin magically got better, so why's he so significantly under a PPG pace? Or maybe the RSL may not have been the best league in the world, but Dynamo Moscow is aces at player development. After all, look what Datsyuk and Ovechkin could do after being coached there.

It's pretty obvious that Laine won't come close unless the Jets are willing to loan him to the KHL or wait for the next lockout.

YEAH WELL LAINE COULD SHOOT IT IN FROM HIS OWN ZONE

 

[oXo Cube]

When 19 years old, Laine scored 44 goals and finished 2nd in goal scoring in the best league in the world.

When 19 years old, Ovechkin scored 13 goals and finished 41st in goal scoring, not even in the best league in the world.

The thing is, Ovechkin developed from that player and you think Laine won't? wait until Laine gets his feet moving and learns the game even more, he will be an absolute force.

I just don't understand this postion on the RSL numbers.

You really think Ovechkin flipped some switch in the summer of 2005 that transformed him from a depth player in the Russian league into an NHL superstar overnight?