Ovechkin vs Laine comparison.

[kelsier]

I've said from day one that these two are totally different type of players and make really terrible comparables. One was the most explosive skater in the league once upon the time where as the other has used his terrific hockey IQ and vision to great chances for himself and his team mates - to get where he is today. Where are the similarities? Shot - check. Size - check. That's about that. Ovy is Laine's idol and you can see he has tried to adopt some of the better qualities from his game. For instance laying big hits whenever there's opportunity, but he doesn't do it like Ovy and go into wrecking ball mode, but instead reads the game and doesn't let himself get out of position. Laine is also much, much more defensive orientated and the people who watched him last season saw he was just burying the puck into corners and giving up opportunities (as he was instructed) instead of charging forward and attempting to create something. Extremely responsible as the 5vs5 differential shows (compared to other Jets players). A forward dedicated to playing both ends of the rink and who can score goals at this rate is extremely valuable. I think Ovy only begun to seriously focus on the two-way game when Trotz showed up, so Laine has a head start there along with the first 80 goals.

Ovy is a freak of nature physically and his skating is something Laine will never come close to. Then again while Ovechkin might have the more flashier highlights moving forward, I think Laine is more creative and will be the better all around player once he reaches the prime. Should be fun seeing if he can become the scoring machine Ovy once was when he hit the smaller rinks. I do think Laine's G/A ratio will balance the further down the road we go (due to having great playmaking ability) and that may decrease the actual goal scoring a bit. Next season is where it begins as he'll too be twenty by then and it's the age Ovy entered the NA'n soil.

Nonetheless no matter how you look at it (apart from maybe international jr-league stats) Laine has Ovy beaten on age to age basis should one dig into achievements. Still there's no denying that there's a huge uphill going into the third season (comparable to Ovy's). Laine will need a significant increase in TOI to be able to compete with those stats. No player can do what Ovy did 05-06 by playing ~sixteen and half minutes a game, especially in today's era.

 

[Murky]

Yeah. Since like 16. Laine has been better than Ovechkin every year so far.

In international play etc.

I expect the trend to continue, no real reason why it would not.

You are completely ignoring the fact that Ovechkin took huge strides at the age Laine has yet to reach. Development is not linear and expecting Laine to match Ovechkin in coming years is not logical. It is wishful thinking. He might do it. He probably won't.

There are all the reasons in the world to believe that a player won't reach all time great status. It is simple logic which you seem so fond of according to your posts. So many more players have been destined to greatness never got there compared to those that actually managed to go all the way. Ovechkin did. Laine has a chance. Huge difference.

 

[DRW204]

Laine was behind 32 year old Ovi who is inferior to 20 year old Ovi. Oh wait do we need to wait 11 years and 8 months to compare the two's production

 

[grieves]

Laine was behind 32 year old Ovi who is inferior to 20 year old Ovi. Oh wait do we need to wait 11 years and 8 months to compare the two's production

19yo teenage Laine was behind a fully matured but declining player? What a knockout blow since we know forwards generally improve drastically until they are 23-24 years old. This was Laine at 19...

Besides, If Laine had Ovi's TOI, he would have scored 52 or 53 goals and won the Rocket if we adjust with g/60. Granted, things are always more complicated than that but I wouldn't exactly dance on the tables here.

 

[grieves]

You are completely ignoring the fact that Ovechkin took huge strides at the age Laine has yet to reach. Development is not linear and expecting Laine to match Ovechkin in coming years is not logical. It is wishful thinking. He might do it. He probably won't.

There are all the reasons in the world to believe that a player won't reach all time great status. It is simple logic which you seem so fond of according to your posts. So many more players have been destined to greatness never got there compared to those that actually managed to go all the way. Ovechkin did. Laine has a chance. Huge difference.

Development is mostly linear. Forwards improve drastically until they are 23-24yo, then they ride their peak declining ever so slightly until they are 28 and then they start declining more or less depending on the individual. Raw numbers however can be affected by a multitude of different factors.

As all players are individuals, it can be that Laine does not improve anymore. But expecting that is not logical. Again, it's possible, but the smart money is on him improving.

If the question is whether or not Laine can have a more impactful career than Ovi, that is completely up in the air and no-one is claiming that Laine is a lock for that kind of greatness.

But now we are going too extremely to the other end saying that expecting Laine to surpass Ovi is completely crazy, even though the first check points indicate that Laine is on that kind of trajectory.

The thing with Laine is that his shot is completely unique to the league. He is introducing a new style to score and that style is far more effective than anyone elses. Even if Laine would have the physique of Butterbean, he could score those 20 PP goals on his shot alone. But his shot comes with a 6"5 highly intelligent workaholic attached to it. There is a reason Laine is breaking all kinds of records left and right and we can act all oblivious to it but I don't get what is the point of that.



TLDR for video: Laine uses his stick like an elastic band. He loads with his top hand, kind of like pulling a lever, and then as the stick straightens itself out, the puck leaves the blade as if from a slingshot (there is more to it though, but that is the basic idea).

 

[shtorm2005]

Besides, If Laine had Ovi's TOI, he would have scored 52 or 53 goals and won the Rocket if we adjust with g/60.

It's not working that way. Laine had much less goals at the end of the season which was the reason he lost the rocket. Adding more icetime most probably wouldn't result in more goals. Competition/general teamplay affects more scoring ability than 2-3min difference in icetime.

 

[grieves]

It's not working that way. Laine had much less goals at the end of the season which was the reason he lost the rocket. Adding more icetime most probably wouldn't result in more goals. Competition/general teamplay affects more scoring ability than 2-3min difference in icetime.

Adding ice-time most certainly will improve your scoring totals. To argue otherwise is interesting to say the least. You could say that it might not increase at the same rate, which is fair, but to say it won't increase is BS.

Also, Laine had extremely weak 5v5 production with Little. It was only after the trade deadline he was playing with Stastny and started seriously competing for the Rocket. So it was actually the latter part of the season where things picked up for Laine, completely opposite of what you are suggesting.

In Laine's first season he had probably the best production in the league with Scheifele, but the Jets' powerplay was a complete mess. Last season Laine was the top PP scorer in the league, but until Stastny, his 5v5 production was a turd.

We have yet to see a season where Laine is not paired with Little and the Jets' PP is working. Then we should see even more fireworks.

And before anyone starts the "stop blaming Little" chants, no-one is blaming Little. He was a cornerstone of the team when Scheifele was injured. It's just that they have zero chemistry with Laine, absolutely none. It hurts them both.

 

[gtrower]

Y’all are just killing Laine’s career with these dumb Ovi comparisons. Because it’s going to be considered a failure when he doesn’t live up to them rather than appreciating him for what he is - an incredible young scoring talent.

 

[trick9]

Laine is not even the best player, or 2nd best player on his team... Ovechkin doubled nearly all of his teammates in points in his rookie year.

 

[grieves]

Laine is not even the best player, or 2nd best player on his team... Ovechkin doubled nearly all of his teammates in points in his rookie year.

Players are not in control of their teammates. Why would this matter in the least?

Are you suggesting that if Laine murders Scheifele in his sleep, he suddenly becomes a better hockey player personally?

 

[trick9]

Players are not in control of their teammates. Why would this matter in the least?

Are you suggesting that if Laine murders Scheifele in his sleep, he suddenly becomes a better hockey player personally?

No.

I'm suggesting that if you start comparing someone from the Jets to Ovechkin, atleast pick the best player of that team. Scheifele isn't close to rookie Ovechkin either but he's a much better player than Laine right now.

My point was that Laine has a massive advantage in regards to teammates over Ovechkin. Look at the PP unit Ovechkin played in as a rookie. Then compare those players to the ones Jets have right now.

 

[grieves]

No.

I'm suggesting that if you start comparing someone from the Jets to Ovechkin, atleast pick the best player of that team. Scheifele isn't close to rookie Ovechkin either but he's a much better player than Laine right now.

My point was that Laine has a massive advantage in regards to teammates over Ovechkin. Look at the PP unit Ovechkin played in as a rookie. Then compare those players to the ones Jets have right now.

Scheifele is 25 years old. He is currently riding his peak. Scheifele was not in the NHL at Laine's age.

You can't just ignore age. That should be obvious by now.

 

[Eric Robson]

Last season Laine was about 7 months younger than Ovechkin was during his rookie season.

Last season Laine scored 44 goals and had 70 points on a team that scored 273 goals
In 05-06 Ovechkin scored 52 goals and had 106 points on a team that scored 230 goals

But yea, Laine has totally been "much better" than Ovechkin so far.

holy f*** Ovis numbers

 

[DRW204]

19yo teenage Laine was behind a fully matured but declining player? What a knockout blow since we know forwards generally improve drastically until they are 23-24 years old. This was Laine at 19...

Besides, If Laine had Ovi's TOI, he would have scored 52 or 53 goals and won the Rocket if we adjust with g/60. Granted, things are always more complicated than that but I wouldn't exactly dance on the tables here.

It was tongue in cheek hence the sarcasm. Anyway Laine in his second year wasn't better than Ovie in his 32 year old where forwards are generally trending down. This iteration of Ovie is inferior than what Ovie was in his first two years.

Laines goals/60 is heavily skewed with his PP goals per 60. His EV goals/60 was very good, but not as remarkable as his overall.

He had more ice time this season compared to his rookie year and his ppg was damn near the same. Can't just assume more ice time will automatically increase scoring at the same rate

edit - sorry , his ice time was lowered this year compared to his rookie year and scored at the same rate on a per game basis as his rookie year (his EVP/60 was noticeably lower). If you assume more ice time = more scoring, wouldn't the inverse have been true too? Shouldn't he have scored less pts due to less TOI? you cant just assume more/less ice time will automatically increase/decrease scoring at the same rate

 

[thunder16]

What is the bar??? Didn't Gretkzy score 212 points in a season? If so, shouldn't that be the bar? You know, the highest point total in league history?

92 goals, and 212 points is the bar!!! Don't let him tell you era adjustment, TOI what ifs etc etc to FLUFF up his boy!

Forgot the 50 goals in 39 games as another bar!

 

[grieves]

It was tongue in cheek hence the sarcasm. Anyway Laine in his second year wasn't better than Ovie in his 32 year old where forwards are generally trending down. This iteration of Ovie is inferior than what Ovie was in his first two years.

Laines goals/60 is heavily skewed with his PP goals per 60. His EV goals/60 was good, but not as remarkable as his overall.

He had more ice time this season compared to past year and his ppg was the same. Can't just assume more ice time will automatically increase scoring at the same rate

Actually his ice-time was lowered by almost a minute and a half in his second season.

PP goals and EV goals count the same on the board. And again I counter with this:

Post from jepjepjoo:

--

Lets compare Laine's 2nd season to Ovi's first:

2017-2018 Winnipeg Jets had 274 pp opportunities
2005-2006 Washington Capitals had 495 pp opportunities

Ovechkin had 6:43 pp, toi 14:05 ev toi, season total: 1,751:22
Laine had 3:00 pp toi, 13:28 ev toi, season total: 1,351:25

hypothetically if Laine had Ovechkin's ev+pp TOI he would have scored 69 goals 108pts

Of course this isn't a fair comparision, but it puts the 05-06 season into context."

 

[Eric Robson]

I think these comparisons have got a little out of hand like they tend too.
I think when comparing these two you have to look at them both amazing talents at their ages.

Ovi can easily be considered top 5 for greatest goal scores of all time. No questions asked. He has the chance to get close to that 800 that only one player has ever done.
Laine in his first two seasons has been dominate as well. He will easily have some Rocket Richard trophies when hes done his career.

When it comes down to it though, Ovi is the better player, and I think always will be. He was apart of that special group of players that you know will be an instant hall of fame like Crobsy, Mario and Gretzky. That;s not saying that Laine cant make it to the Hall either, I just think it is no where near as evident as Ovi's

At the end of the day, if you're the Jets or the Caps, do you really care? You each have a guy who's going score 40-60 goals a year with ease.

 

[DRW204]

Actually his ice-time was lowered by almost a minute and a half in his second season.

PP goals and EV goals count the same on the board. And again I counter with this:

Post from jepjepjoo:

--

Lets compare Laine's 2nd season to Ovi's first:

2017-2018 Winnipeg Jets had 274 pp opportunities
2005-2006 Washington Capitals had 495 pp opportunities

Ovechkin had 6:43 pp, toi 14:05 ev toi, season total: 1,751:22
Laine had 3:00 pp toi, 13:28 ev toi, season total: 1,351:25

hypothetically if Laine had Ovechkin's ev+pp TOI he would have scored 69 goals 108pts

Of course this isn't a fair comparision, but it puts the 05-06 season into context."

sorry yes, his ice time was lowered this year and scored at the same rate as his rookie year. If you assume more ice time = more scoring, wouldn't the inverse have been true too? Shouldn't he have scored less pts due to less TOI? you cant just assume more/less ice time will automatically increase/decrease scoring at the same rate

So the Caps had more PPs in 2005, yet Ovie has been putting up similar goal totals for the last 7ish years as he did as a rookie. How about quality of teammates? Ovechkin had +49 in pts and +29 in goals on the next player...huge disparity. Laine is surrounded by elite talent and was 2nd in scoring on the jets, 3rd in PPG.

 

[thunder16]

19yo teenage Laine was behind a fully matured but declining player? What a knockout blow since we know forwards generally improve drastically until they are 23-24 years old. This was Laine at 19...

Besides, If Laine had Ovi's TOI, he would have scored 52 or 53 goals and won the Rocket if we adjust with g/60. Granted, things are always more complicated than that but I wouldn't exactly dance on the tables here.

What ifs, and always adjusting for Laine, you guys are great at that!!!!

 

[grieves]

sorry yes, his ice time was lowered this year and scored at the same rate as his rookie year. If you assume more ice time = more scoring, wouldn't the inverse have been true too? Shouldn't he have scored less pts due to less TOI?

So the Caps had more PPs in 2005, yet Ovie has been putting up similar goal totals for the last 7ish years.

No, because players improve. The lowered ice-time is offset by teenage Laine improving as a player.

 

[grieves]

What ifs, you guys are good at that

Thanks, we try our best .

 

[DRW204]

No, because players improve. The lowered ice-time is offset by teenage Laine improving as a player.

his EVP/60 actually went down this past year. I watched every Jets game he was super inconsistent this year in his all around play.

 

[thunder16]

Thanks, we try our best .

I know ...You have to because he's not as good as you think!!

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I know ...You have to because he's not as good as you think!!

You are underselling Laine.

 

[grieves]

his EVP/60 actually went down this past year. I watched every Jets game he was super inconsistent this year in his all around play.

There are some issues with his linemates if you care to read my posts from a bit earlier. Laine-Little combination kills any offence. Other pairings (and I mean any other pairings) work much better. And Laine played something like 50 games with Little this past season.