Ovechkin vs Laine comparison.

[filinski77]

Ov didn't have to play with Brian Little. And he played over twice the PP time.

Today coming even close to those numbers is a lot more difficult than back then.

But you can ignore all that, and the age difference, and declare what you want. I just don't have to agree with it.

You're right that Ovi didn't have to play with Little, he had to play with even worse line mates, and a far far worse power play.

And obviously it would be harder to put up 52g 106 points today, that's basically McDavid level with an added 12 goals, but 3rd place points and goals this passed year would be around 43g 100p. Laine with 44g and 70p does not compare.

Luckily for Laine I guess, his 3rd year should be favourable to stack up against Ovi's 2nd year, not in raw totals (46g 92p), but in league placements (4th in goals and 13th in points).

You can talk about the age difference all you want, you're either giving Ovi 7 months older (and Laine a year of NHL experience), or Laine 5 months older (and 2 years of NHL), we all know its the former.

So let's say Laine finishes with 45g and 85p next year which is around 1-4th in goals and just outside of the top 10 in points, that would be 1-1 tie (whilst just dismissing Laine's first year, which at the end of the career will just end up as an inferior year to OVi anyways), Laine will then have to go 3 straight years dominating the league and leading p/gp and g/gp. We'll see.

 

[Romang67]

I don't know, but do you think they were worse than Andrew Copp? As so far the excellent 4th liner Copp has been miles better linemate for Laine than Bryan Little, at least if Ehlers is the other winger.

Ovechkin played with Zubrus who had a career high of 44 points away from Ovechkin, and Chris Clark who had a career high of 25 points away from Ovechkin.

It's hard to understate how ludicrous I think the argument that Laine had worse linemates because he didn't click with Little is.

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

Ovechkin played with Zubrus who had a career high of 44 points away from Ovechkin, and Chris Clark who had a career high of 25 points away from Ovechkin.

It's hard to understate how ludicrous I think the argument that Laine had worse linemates because he didn't click with Little is.

Well, I have tried to avoid the linemate discussion and ”Little-bashing” before. But you know Little has career high of 64 pts. He is definitely past his prime and his last four seasons are 52-42-47-43 pts. So I can’t see the big difference here (comparing to Zubrus).

 

[Carlzner]

Uh huh

 

[Romang67]

Well, I have tried to avoid the linemate discussion and ”Little-bashing” before. But you know Little has career high of 64 pts. He is definitely past his prime and his last four seasons are 52-42-47-43 pts. So I can’t see the big difference here (comparing to Zubrus).

That's because you're ignoring games played when looking at Little's points. Try again.

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

That's because you're ignoring games played when looking at Little's points. Try again.

And Zubrus was having how many games with those points?

Last year Little 82GP, 43pts. Laine 82GP, 70pts.

 

[Halberdier]

Ovechkin played with Zubrus who had a career high of 44 points away from Ovechkin, and Chris Clark who had a career high of 25 points away from Ovechkin.

It's hard to understate how ludicrous I think the argument that Laine had worse linemates because he didn't click with Little is.

I don't fully get your answer since Copp's career total is 59 points and career high 28 points, including those points he got on those games he played with Laine.

And yet Copp has been visually and statistically way better linemate for Laine than Little so far. You could say that the sample size is small, but sample size with Little is not small and sample size without Little is not small either.

Besides, you keep totally ignoring the TOI difference, both ES and esp. PP.

 

[Romang67]

And Zubrus was having how many games with those points?

Last year Little 82GP, 43pts. Laine 82GP, 70pts.

Dainius Zubrus at eliteprospects.com

There you go.

 

[IPS]

Well, I have tried to avoid the linemate discussion and ”Little-bashing” before. But you know Little has career high of 64 pts. He is definitely past his prime and his last four seasons are 52-42-47-43 pts. So I can’t see the big difference here (comparing to Zubrus).

Twisting numbers to make Brian Little look bad to further an excuse for Laine. Why is this even necessary?

Little had a combined PPG of 0.76 in the three years prior to his down year last year. From 2014-2017 he actually had a PPG that was in the top-30 for centers, so it's more than likely he just had a down year last year and will likely bounce back. You're putting up his point totals without adding in the games he missed. Little also plays a very responsible 2-way game and is great on faceoffs.

Bashing Little to elevate Laine is a pathetic tactic really. Sometimes players are just responsible for their own play.

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

Dainius Zubrus at eliteprospects.com

There you go.

Thanks. You looked those also?

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

Bashing Little to elevate Laine is a pathetic tactic really.

And this is the reason I didn’t wanna comment on this before .

 

[IPS]

And this is the reason I didn’t wanna comment on this before .

So maybe don't post Little's points without adding the games he missed then. Looks a little agenda-furthering to me.

 

[Psych0dad]

Why can't he make Little better? That's what I'm looking for from a line driver.

Because he was a teen and teens don't generally drive lines in the NHL.

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

So maybe don't post Little's points without adding the games he missed then. Looks a little agenda-furthering to me.

Zubrus did also miss games with his points.

And to clarify I am answering to the argument that Ovi would have gotten ”garbage” linemates, and Laine having ”elite” linemates.

 

[Romang67]

I don't fully get your answer since Copp's career total is 59 points and career high 28 points, including those points he got on those games he played with Laine.

And yet Copp has been visually and statistically way better linemate for Laine than Little so far. You could say that the sample size is small, but sample size with Little is not small and sample size without Little is not small either.

Besides, you keep totally ignoring the TOI difference, both ES and esp. PP.

Oh, pray tell, exactly how am I ignoring the TOI difference when stating that Laine's linemates were significantly better than Ovechkin's?

Yes, the sample size with Copp is ridiculously small.

If you are interested in having a conversation about which center would be best to put with Laine, you are free to have that conversation with someone else in another thread. It is off topic, and I could not be less interested in having that discussion anyway.

 

[Romang67]

Thanks. You looked those also?

Since it appears that you want to continue being misleading, let me state it clearly here.

Over the past 4 years, including an incredibly low scoring last season for Little, he had a .69 P/G. Those were the four seasons that you used to try to insinuate that Little and Zubrus were similar in point production.

In 17 seasons away from Ovechkin, Zubrus didn't have a higher P/G a single time. His closest was 0.61 P/G.

This is ridiculous.

More than being ridiculous, this is also comparing only one half of their linemates. The other comparison is Nikolaj Ehlers to Chris f***ing Clark. Please don't make me explain why this comparison would be absolutely mindblowingly stupid.

 

[IPS]

Zubrus did also miss games with his points.

And to clarify I am answering to the argument that Ovi would have gotten ”garbage” linemates, and Laine having ”elite” linemates.

In no way, shape, or fashion does linemates/team situation show any favor in this argument towards Laine. That I think we can all agree on.

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

Since it appears that you want to continue being misleading, let me state it clearly here.

Over the past 4 years, including an incredibly low scoring last season for Little, he had a .69 P/G. Those were the four seasons that you used to try to insinuate that Little and Zubrus were similar in point production.

In 17 seasons away from Ovechkin, Zubrus didn't have a higher P/G a single time. His closest was 0.61 P/G.

This is ridiculous.

No, it is not ridiculous. In WSH 2001-2007 Zubrus had 0.65 P/G. Before Ovi in WSH he had 0.56 P/G.

I am by no means trying to be misleading here. Just didn’t know difference between ”garbage” and ”elite” is 0.04 P/G (or 0.1+ P/G if that smaller number was also misleading).

 

[DRW204]

No, it is not ridiculous. In WSH 2001-2007 Zubrus had 0.65 P/G.

I am by no means trying to be misleading here. Just didn’t know difference between ”garbage” and ”elite” is 0.04 P/G (or 0.1 P/G if that smaller number was also misleading).

if you exclude the Ovechkin years, Zubrus' PPG in WSH was 0.53. With Ovie - 0.83 PPG (109 pts in 131 gp - he got traded to BUF in 06-07). Wouldn't say he's garbage but definitely a step below the Cs Laine plays with a majority of the time at EV and on the PP. Chris Clark vs Ehlers? WPG's 2nd pairing D which includes Buff vs ????

 

[Romang67]

No, it is not ridiculous. In WSH 2001-2007 Zubrus had 0.65 P/G. Before Ovi in WSH he had 0.56 P/G.

But 0.56 P/G is not ”garbage” level. Yes, he wasn’t pointwise better than Little. But the difference is not so astronomical.

I am by no means trying to be misleading here. Just didn’t know difference between ”garbage” and ”elite” is 0.04 P/G (or 0.13 P/G if that smaller number was also misleading).

Yes, it's ridiculous. And your math is incorrect. The difference between the closer two point producers is roughly the difference between the 90's best point producer last season and the 150th best point producer last season. That difference is already substantial.

Now compare Clark and Ehlers, and you'll see just how ridiculous the linemate comparison is.

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

if you exclude the Ovechkin years, Zubrus' PPG in WSH was 0.53. With Ovie - 0.83 PPG (109 pts in 131 gp - he got traded to BUF in 06-07). Wouldn't say he's garbage but definitely a step below the Cs Laine plays with a majority of the time at EV and on the PP. Chris Clark vs Ehlers? WPG's 2nd pairing D which includes Buff vs ????

I edited my post, but I did got a little bit different numbers. Not much, so I won’t check them again .

I’m not claming Laine is having some kind of bad linemates. And I’ve also commented what I think of the effect of ”garbage” teams or linemates to the personal points of the _great_ players in those teams.

I am just trying to say that Laines and Ovis under 20 year development seems to be quite near eachother. So Laine MIGHT surprise us again.

Some think there is no way Laine would score near Ovi numbers in the future. Some think otherwise. This far there is nothing that would encourage me to bet AGAINST Laine. We’ll see.

 

[Halberdier]

Oh, pray tell, exactly how am I ignoring the TOI difference when stating that Laine's linemates were significantly better than Ovechkin's?

Yes, the sample size with Copp is ridiculously small.

If you are interested in having a conversation about which center would be best to put with Laine, you are free to have that conversation with someone else in another thread. It is off topic, and I could not be less interested in having that discussion anyway.

Yes, as stated, sample size with Copp is ridiculously small, and yet on line on all those line combinations Laine has been enjoying on Jets sans Little. What a coincidence!

Dropping this only here:

Laine's 5-on-5 line combinations (all combinations with less than 50 minutes TOI omitted for sanity):

Laine w/o Little: TOI 947 GF/60 4.43 GA/60 2.47 GF% 64,22% gDiff +31
Laine w Little: TOI 731 GF/60 2.71 GA/60 2.71 GF% 50% gDiff +-0

Just as a bonus factor, the infamous Ehlers +Little+ Laine combination Laine has played 1/3 of his NHL career so far:

TOI 547 GF/60 2.41 GA/2.41 GF% 50 gDiff +-0

In statistical comparison there is just _no question_ whether playing with ELL has been cancerous for Laine's productivity or not. None whatsoever. Night and day. PLE seems to be statistically as bad, unfortunately.

Sample size that is already HUGE tells us that those line combinations having Laine without Little produce 63+% MORE (while allowing less goals against, go figure!) than those where Laine is having Little as his center. I think we can see a Little bit difference here, can't we? Astronomical difference, to be honest.

But please continue to ignore these facts if you decide so. These might be off topic here, but outright banned on HfJets Laine thread (sad but true!), so that's better place than nothing.


All stats from corsica.hockey line combos. And yes, there might be single errors here and there, but unless the great conspiracy against Little is exposed, it's safe to conclude that these stats are fair, and that more than 63% production boost Laine is getting when playing without Little is real.

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

Yes, it's ridiculous. And your math is incorrect.

My math seems to be bit off. Maybe. As @DRW204 already got a little bit different P/G for Zubrus. But anyway we are fighting over decimals... Zubrus wasn’t garbage. Neither is Little.

 

[Auston Marlander]

I edited my post, but I did got a little bit different numbers. Not much, so I won’t check them again .

I’m not claming Laine is having some kind of bad linemates. And I’ve also commented what I think of the effect of ”garbage” teams or linemates to the personal points of the _great_ players in those teams.

I am just trying to say that Laines and Ovis under 20 year development seems to be quite near eachother. So Laine MIGHT surprise us again.

Some think there is no way Laine would score near Ovi numbers in the future. Some think otherwise. This far there is nothing that would encourage me to bet AGAINST Laine. We’ll see.

If we are talking just goals if is kind of close, but Ovi is still clearly ahead. If we are talking overall impact on the game, it isn't even close.

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

If we are talking just goals if is kind of close, but Ovi is still clearly ahead. If we are talking overall impact on the game, it isn't even close.

Yes, but if we are talking overall impact _when under 20 years old_ we are not far.

I know that many of you do think that the age factor is not so important. I beg to differ. Next season will show _me_ if I am wrong. For someone else it might prove something else. Lets see.