In both of their first 2 seasons Ovi was better, hands down. Laine may get there, but hasn't shown it yet.
Ovechkin vs Laine comparison.
- Thread starter Alf the dwarf
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In both of their first 2 seasons Ovi was better, hands down. Laine may get there, but hasn't shown it yet.
What? How? I have a hard time listening to you talk about your past hockey viewing, when you talk about Ovechkin playing in the NHL as an 18yr old.
LOL. Ovechkin was drafted in 2004. June 26th. He was 18...would be 19 on Sept 17th of that same year. The NHL then cancelled the 2004-2005 season.
So you are saying Ovechkin should have played in the NHL *before* he was drafted? Is that it?
You seem to be full of.....something.
age is definitely a factor, but so is quality of team/linemates and Laine has 150+ of regular season/playoff experience on North American/NHL ice vs Ovie at the same age.
I am a Jets fan, and hope Laine gets to Ovie's level, but we are talking about a player from ages 22-24 put up in 233GP 171G 160A 331Pts with 2 Rockets, 2 Harts and 3 Pearsons.
19GoalsInPlayoffs
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Yes. As I said if we are comparing their first two NHL seasons, not performance at particular age before the players prime (which we can not know when it begins). You do have every right to do so.
But if it is not clear already I am not interested in the question ”which one is better”. And I strongly suggest every hockey fan taking the same perspective. But of course you don’t have to
. As we already know how good Ovi is, I am interested in finding out how good Laine can be. And from my point of view everything is looking just fine. Just fine .Yes. As I said if we are comparing their first two NHL seasons, not performance at particular age before the players prime (which we can not know when it begins). You do have every right to do so.
But if it is not clear already I am not interested in the question ”which one is better”. And I strongly suggest every hockey fan taking the same perspective. But of course you don’t have to
That's all fair, but the thread is a comparison, comparisons are done to see who is better or who brings more to the game. Ovi is proven to be an all time great, Laine is looking really good, but has a very long way to go for the "All time great" label.
FWIW: I hate labels since they are so subjective and arbitrary but for the purpose of this thread seems needed.
19GoalsInPlayoffs
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Well kind of
. I might need to visualize players in my mind when comparing them, and then there is this ”better” aspect. But what is the point of this kind of ”who is better” -comparison for example:Ovi>>>>Laine AINEC!,!,,, HOW dare you to even compare them?! Laine is not worthy even [insert something]
(That is by no means directed at you.)
I am quite happy that there are not many of those posts in here. But I am always genuinely surprised when finding out what some fans consider a sacrilege of some kind. You should always be able to COMPARE very good players to the all-time greats (to Mario even
).I think its kind of unfair to compare a 19 year old to a 32 year old. Especially considering ovechkin never even played in the NHL at Laines age
Tavares to Marner
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Sidney the Kidney
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Ovechkin literally couldn't play in the NHL at Laine's age. With his late birthdate, he wasn't eligible to be drafted as an 18 year old, and then when he was drafted, there was a lockout.
His very first year in the league he scored 50+ goals and 100+ points. If Laine falls short of that this year (since there's this obsession with "same age" comparisons), will this nonsense finally stop?
Experience, training and physical capabilities improve with age especially when you're that young. To say an 18 year old and a 20 year old are physically equal is wrong in most cases. Maybe he wont match Ovechkin this year but when Ovechkin was playing in the khl he wasnt exactly putting up huge numbers. When you're young age does matter
Plural
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64 in 12-13 is vastly, vastly different than 57 (albeit in 71 games) in 05-06. Anyways, even if someone thinks Zubrus is equal to Little (which is not going to be very popular idea) Ehlers compared to Chris f***ing Clark is a difference of night and day.
There is no possible way for anyone to argue that Laine somehow plays with worse players than rookie Ovechkin did. It's insane to even suggest that.
Plural
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After Laine and Matthews came in to the league (and I'm a big fan of both) this forum suddenly got riddled with player evaluation metrics that have never been used before. Suddenly regular season game winning goals became one of the more important metrics on how to value goal-scorers. Or scoring in close situations. To a point where the best goal-scorer was now determined more by game winners than actual totals. There was also loose puck retrievals that we all remember. Players comparisons are now determined within 2 months (that's the difference between Laine and OV when comparing Laine's sophomore season to OV's rookie season vs. Laine's third season to OV's rookie season).
I remember lurking around these boards when the OV vs. Sid debates were at their worst and in many ways the discussion was more toxic. But the comparison metrics never ended up being debates over how much taller one guy is in the morning compared to evening. It's hilarious and insane.
Sidney the Kidney
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Yeah, the Sid/Ovi debates got ridiculous, but as you said, at least they were based on actual production. It usually came down to whether one believed an elite goal scorer or an elite playmaker was the better player. But at least it involved comparing actual top-of-the-league production and achievements of both guys, not this new flavor of the week where P/60 and G/60 are the be-all and extrapolating one player's 16 minutes per night to what he'd *maybe* score if he got 20 minutes per night like the other guy.
filinski77
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It's quite hilarious, it's always been based off draft year, no-one ever was sitting around counting months. I've still yet to get a reply when I ask why Laine and Matthews are directly compared if their age gap is the same. The reason is because they were drafted in the same year.
It's funny seeing how far the excuses being made have gone.
Plural
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It's so obvious as to why some insist that Laine's third is more comparable. I mean, in the strictest sense of months it is the most "fair" comparison. But looking the situation more closely it absolutely makes no sense. The difference is two months FFS.
Narow
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Even going by age its highly unlikely laine scores similarly to ovis rookie season. Maybe he gets close or even exceeds in goal totals but thats it. He wont be as impactful unless some drastic improvement have been made this summer. Lol imagine laine with almost 400 shots on goal a season. Yikes
Plural
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Man that would be something else. Laine shooting 350-400 times a season would probably mean he scores around 70. Insane.
Psych0dad
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If he scored the same numbers with less than half PP time, how is the impact smaller?
Goals are main impact, taking lots of shots isn't that much of an impact.
If Laine took 400 shots in a season, he would score an enormous amount of goals over OV with 400 shots.
They don't have to be very close in shot totals, for Laine to have the same amount of goals. Quality over quantity.
19GoalsInPlayoffs
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I don't believe that anyone is suggesting that. Well, what do I know. I for sure am not.
As I said shouldn't have taken a part in the linemates discussion, as I do think that if a player is truly a great player the linemates actually do not have any major impact. See my previous posts.
The reason I posted those Little and Zubrus comparisons are just to highlight that neither Zubrus or Little are "garbage" (no garbage player get over 0.5P/G and over 0.8P/G with great linemate). I still think they both are alse quite near eachother. Or at least when Zubrus was playing with Ovie he was not drastically worse than over the prime Little. But what do I know...
Plural
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Zubrus wasn't a slouch (IIRC he was mid-first round pick). He probably wasn't quite as good as Little was, but they're pretty close. The difference comes between Ehlers and Clark. Where the other one is a legit top-line player and the other is, well not.
But like you said, linemates don't matter that much for the absolute best of the best. Ovechkin is one of those guys who led the league in goals and points with 69 point Backstrom and led the league in GPG and PPG with 100 point Backstrom.
Laine was still a teenager last season so I give him the benefit of a doubt when it comes to dictating the pace and offense of his line. But if he want's to jump in to the big boys club, he's going to have to start being the driver of offense in his line within a season or two.
LaMasquerade
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To me Ovie came to NHL as much more complete package than Laine, so for first two years there's really no comparison. Ovie was better hands down.
From couple of exhibition game feeds (in Finland) and his interview yesterday, it seems Laine has analysed his shortcomings and focused this summer on his one major weakness, lack of explosiveness for first few strides (and skating in general), and results are already showing.. Who knows, maybe in few seasons this comparison actually starts making sense!
From couple of exhibition game feeds (in Finland) and his interview yesterday, it seems Laine has analysed his shortcomings and focused this summer on his one major weakness, lack of explosiveness for first few strides (and skating in general), and results are already showing.. Who knows, maybe in few seasons this comparison actually starts making sense!
kelsier
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I mean no to disrespect Little, but since people seem so keen to looking at his numbers from the recent years and reflecting those against this and that, there seems to be that ever-appearing element missing that is so common in these boards. Details. So lets have a look at the curious case of Bryan Little and what his statistics look like from lets say four previous seasons?
2014-15 - 70 games 52 points
2015-16 - 57 games 42 points
2016-17 - 59 games 47 points
2017-18 - 82 games 43 points
That actually doesn't look that bad now does it? I mean for a second line center that's not all too bad apart from last year right? However, except that he wasn't really a second line center during 14-15 nor the entire 15-16. Little centered the first line until Scheifele eventually relieved him from that particular duty (once he got injured). During 14-15 he averaged nearly 20 mins/game ice time. Year after his ice time dropped a grand total of 19 seconds, leaving him with aTOI of 19:36. For a first line center who should be in his prime and playing nearly 20 minutes a night, would someone consider those numbers exciting, terrific even (52pt/70 & 42pt/57)? It wasn't like he didn't have any support either (of course the team is much better now). I really didn't pay that much attention to the Jets until Laine was drafted so I'm sure there are Jets fans who can present better insights, but I'm just dealing with raw numbers here, prior to actually watching the actual games that is of course. Anyway, he could still produce at 16-17 and didn't look all that bad even after returning from the injury bay later on. Yet last season, he did everything but excel in the offensive end. He quite visibly lacked the speed and strength to battle defenders behind the offensive blue line and was often step or two too late, resulting in a lot of lost battles/puck losses. So this abysmal unit (and quite possible one of the worst second lines in the league) of Little, Laine and Ehlers existed for a half a season and the very next game they were finally dismantled for good, the formerly mentioned youngsters started a long and extremely potent hot streak where Laine fought himself to the Rocket Richard race out of thin air. Also lets not forget that it wasn't Stastny who was in the middle when it all started, but Andrew frigging Copp. Meanwhile it seemed nearly impossible to find a working combination for Little no matter who they paired him up with. I think ELP (erreault, or was it PLE) was the only working combo that I can think of.
Some say he had an off year and that Little will bounce back, but to be honest, the level that he played with 17-18 wasn't what is expected of average or good 2nd line center, especially considering that he had NHL's second best goal scorer by his side half the time. So if you want to discuss Little with an actual perspective, I'd advice you to keep in mind his role whenever referring to results, in order to keep the conversation remotely rational. Most of the problems related on the non-existing chemistry, but honestly, 29 year olds do not normally just have off-years. What we were seeing were early signs of decline. As I mentioned before, he can bounce back, but he needs to work his a** off to fight off the early symptoms. Without that ~half a season "experiment", who knows what kind of season Laine might have already had. Of course he was not perfect either, neither was Ehlers and neither are any player at that age range. Then again, what teenager or youngster does not have aspects left to improve at when playing at the highest possible level. As for Bryan Little, I really really hope he gets back to his former level, but the (ELL) is not something I wish to see ever again. If they do try force those pieces together, then the organization hasn't learned anything or they just have other agendas in mind.
2014-15 - 70 games 52 points
2015-16 - 57 games 42 points
2016-17 - 59 games 47 points
2017-18 - 82 games 43 points
That actually doesn't look that bad now does it? I mean for a second line center that's not all too bad apart from last year right? However, except that he wasn't really a second line center during 14-15 nor the entire 15-16. Little centered the first line until Scheifele eventually relieved him from that particular duty (once he got injured). During 14-15 he averaged nearly 20 mins/game ice time. Year after his ice time dropped a grand total of 19 seconds, leaving him with aTOI of 19:36. For a first line center who should be in his prime and playing nearly 20 minutes a night, would someone consider those numbers exciting, terrific even (52pt/70 & 42pt/57)? It wasn't like he didn't have any support either (of course the team is much better now). I really didn't pay that much attention to the Jets until Laine was drafted so I'm sure there are Jets fans who can present better insights, but I'm just dealing with raw numbers here, prior to actually watching the actual games that is of course. Anyway, he could still produce at 16-17 and didn't look all that bad even after returning from the injury bay later on. Yet last season, he did everything but excel in the offensive end. He quite visibly lacked the speed and strength to battle defenders behind the offensive blue line and was often step or two too late, resulting in a lot of lost battles/puck losses. So this abysmal unit (and quite possible one of the worst second lines in the league) of Little, Laine and Ehlers existed for a half a season and the very next game they were finally dismantled for good, the formerly mentioned youngsters started a long and extremely potent hot streak where Laine fought himself to the Rocket Richard race out of thin air. Also lets not forget that it wasn't Stastny who was in the middle when it all started, but Andrew frigging Copp. Meanwhile it seemed nearly impossible to find a working combination for Little no matter who they paired him up with. I think ELP (erreault, or was it PLE) was the only working combo that I can think of.
Some say he had an off year and that Little will bounce back, but to be honest, the level that he played with 17-18 wasn't what is expected of average or good 2nd line center, especially considering that he had NHL's second best goal scorer by his side half the time. So if you want to discuss Little with an actual perspective, I'd advice you to keep in mind his role whenever referring to results, in order to keep the conversation remotely rational. Most of the problems related on the non-existing chemistry, but honestly, 29 year olds do not normally just have off-years. What we were seeing were early signs of decline. As I mentioned before, he can bounce back, but he needs to work his a** off to fight off the early symptoms. Without that ~half a season "experiment", who knows what kind of season Laine might have already had. Of course he was not perfect either, neither was Ehlers and neither are any player at that age range. Then again, what teenager or youngster does not have aspects left to improve at when playing at the highest possible level. As for Bryan Little, I really really hope he gets back to his former level, but the (ELL) is not something I wish to see ever again. If they do try force those pieces together, then the organization hasn't learned anything or they just have other agendas in mind.
I'm just trying to find a post that states otherwise.
Threre are lots of posts that states that teenage Laine had hugely better stats to teenage Ovie (international, U20, NHL vs. RSL), but I don't think anyone argued that Laine's rookie season equals to Ovie's rookie season. How it even could, as Laine was a kid and Ovie a grown up man?
We are just speculating whether 20-year-old Laine can match 20-year-old. If not in straight comparison as scoring and PP was abnormally high, but at least score adjusted.
Remains to be seen. As said, Laine has a huge mountain to climb to match 20-year-old Ovie.
All comparisons between their respective rookie seasons are ill based and dumb.
Troubadour
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All things considered, it's pretty close.
At 18, Laine had the international impact Ovi could only dream of at that age.
Truth, Ovi's rookie year looks otherworldly, but he sustained no concussion, got to play over 21 minutes a night, was almost 2 years older than Laine and, most importantly, he started during the year the PP opportunities were at their highest in, how many, 25 years by now?
In the end, at ES, the red hot rookie Ovi outscored the rookie Laine by a single point in 8 more games.
The second year, which was still very high scoring overall, Ovi scored 2 more goals than Laine in the same number of games, playing 5 more minutes a night on average. Yeah, unlike Laine, he added the same number of assists. But unlike Laine, he was -19. That's bad, any way we slice it.
Wake me up same time next year and I might agree with the Ovi boyz. At the moment, I'll have Laine and give him some time on ice so he can show whether or not he can dance with the starlets.
At 18, Laine had the international impact Ovi could only dream of at that age.
Truth, Ovi's rookie year looks otherworldly, but he sustained no concussion, got to play over 21 minutes a night, was almost 2 years older than Laine and, most importantly, he started during the year the PP opportunities were at their highest in, how many, 25 years by now?
In the end, at ES, the red hot rookie Ovi outscored the rookie Laine by a single point in 8 more games.
The second year, which was still very high scoring overall, Ovi scored 2 more goals than Laine in the same number of games, playing 5 more minutes a night on average. Yeah, unlike Laine, he added the same number of assists. But unlike Laine, he was -19. That's bad, any way we slice it.
Wake me up same time next year and I might agree with the Ovi boyz. At the moment, I'll have Laine and give him some time on ice so he can show whether or not he can dance with the starlets.
If Laine remains healthy in the upcomming years, I don't think the debate between him and Ovechkin will go anywere. But it will most likely focus more on goal scoring than anything else, since Laine most likely won't be able to match Ovechkin's Point totals, since Laine doesn't do assists.
Personally I think Laine needs to put up 50 goals this upcomming season and I fully expect him to match the 52 goals Ovechkin put up in 05-06 if he's healthy. If Laine plays all 82 games and only puts up about 45 goals, it might be time to start comparing him to guys like Gaborik and Heatley instead. But if Laine breaks 50 and even matches 52 it will be HUGE! 130+ career goals as a 20 year old has only been done twice before. And if Laine makes that list we'll hear about it throughout next summer.
