Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[Yackiberg8]

Sure, he is already there.
I've made this picture, tell me if someone is missing.

Nice graphic but you should remove the Calder and Rocket if you are using it as a tool for best player.

 

[wetcoast]

What is there to show that Crosby is better at offense? His best season is routinely ranked behind all three best seasons by Ovechkin. He tilts the ice less, and the defensive edge he has is so small that Hart voters always vote Ovechkin well ahead if points are at all close - even if Ovechkin has less points.
"Better leader" is some bull**** not even worth discussing. It is just something people make up to push their narrative.

Here it is again.

Sure it is the consensus is that Crosby is ahead of Ovi and that's extremely unlikely to change.

Here is how they stack up regular season and playoffs combined.

Crosby 1152-530-922-1452
Ovechkin- 1288-775-634-1409

so in 136 less games Crosby has 43 more points than Ovi.

But sure Crosby is piling up extra points in the playoffs right.

Ovi doesn't gain any ground in terms of international play either.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Sure, he is already there.
I've made this picture, tell me if someone is missing.

Cool graphic.

I would say Harvey, Richard and Eddie Shore should be there but in many cases they predated some of those awards. Lidstrom would have a ton of Norris trophies as well. Howe would've won more if those some of those trophies were around as well.

 

[daver]

I stopped reading there.

Crosby helps his team score more goals, period.

 

[Randyne]

Nice graphic but you should remove the Calder and Rocket if you are using it as a tool for best player.

They are main trophies.
And it isn't sorted by the best players, only by trophy case.

 

[Randyne]

Cool graphic.

I would say Harvey, Richard and Eddie Shore should be there but in many cases they predated some of those awards. Lidstrom would have a ton of Norris trophies as well. Howe would've won more if those some of those trophies were around as well.

Sure, I added only missing rockets to the players, the rest of them measured by votes.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Crosby helps his team score more goals, period.

You've certainly made a compelling argument. Guess we can close the thread now.

 

[MartinS82]

I think he is top 10. He's been amongst the best players for 15+ seasons now. That is incredible. I see these players that have come after him starting "age out" of the league and OV just keeps pumping out Richard Trophies. That is quite an accomplishment - coming from a Penguins fan.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Sure, I added only missing rockets to the players, the rest of them measured by votes.

No way to add in Lindsay awards though. I'm sure guys like Howe would've won some of those.

Richard led the playoffs in goals five times. How many Conn Smythes would he have won? No way to really know for sure.

Anyways, great graphic. Nice work.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I think he is top 10. He's been amongst the best players for 15+ seasons now. That is incredible. I see these players that have come after him starting "age out" of the league and OV just keeps pumping out Richard Trophies. That is quite an accomplishment - coming from a Penguins fan.

It's a shame the pandemic got in the way of this past season and who knows what's going to happen going forward. Gretzky's record is hard enough to break as it is. Him missing these games is just going to make it that much harder. I'd hate to see him miss out on it because of this.

 

[Fantomas]

Here it is again.

Wetcoast once again chimes in with the trenchant insight that Crosby picks up more points, while ignoring that Ovechkin's goals provide significantly more value than Crosby's secondary assists.

 

[Leksand]

I certainly see the case for Ovechkin. I think I can go with top 10 forward all time, but he's outside the top 10 for me if we're including D and G.[/QUOTE]c

That’s a critical point. It gets crowded very quickly when all positions are included.

And to make the point that he’s easily top 10 you have to list the top 10 and maybe even top 20 to be credible. Even if you want to exclude what some would see as really old eras, can you really exclude the 1950s? If not you have 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s ie 6 decades of greats to allocate 10 slots to.

Of courae I think it’s impossible and sort of meaningless to begin with. How the heck do rank Ovechkin and Plante vis-a-vis each other and then throw in Bourqe / Harvey/ Lidstrom whoever you prefer etc etc

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

That’s a critical point. It gets crowded very quickly when all positions are included.

And to make the point that he’s easily top 10 you have to list the top 10 and maybe even top 20 to be credible. Even if you want to exclude what some would see as really old eras, can you really exclude the 1950s? If not you have 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s ie 6 decades of greats to allocate 10 slots to.

Of courae I think it’s impossible and sort of meaningless to begin with. How the heck do rank Ovechkin and Plante vis-a-vis each other and then throw in Bourqe / Harvey/ Lidstrom whoever you prefer etc etc

The number five spot is really crazy. So many players that you could argue for. I don't think it's really set.

Interesting to look at Crosby/Ovechkin though because they are contemporaries who started at the same time. OV has actually got one more Hart than Crosby does and has more trophies. Crosby though has more cups and that definitely helps him. I do think Crosby is a more 'complete' player than Ovechkin is but that doesn't necessarily make him a better player overall. Brian Trottier was a more complete player than Gretzky was for example. Does that mean he was better? Of course not.

OV's goal scoring is just insanely good. It's hard to ignore how dominant he's been. And he's STILL winning Richard trophies.

 

[Zuluss]

Here it is again.

Yup, here it is again, the one and only argument Crosby has over Ovechkin - the all-important ppg.
Never mind that Ovechkin is getting more Hart votes for 71 points (2015/16) than Crosby does for 84 points (2014/15).
Never mind that Ovechkin is voted ahead of Crosby by the same Hart voters every time their points are close (2005/06, 2009/10, 2012/13, 2014/15, 2017/18).

But here is something about their points: Ovechkin has 1,278 career points in 1,152 games, 219 of them secondary assists. So that makes 1,059 primary points.
Crosby has 1,263 career points in 984 games, 301 of them secondary assists. So that makes 962 primary points.
97 primary points is a lot - in 2013/14, usually touted as Crosby's best year, he collected only 70 primary points.

We can add playoffs too: 139 primary points in 168 games for Crosby, 104 primary points in 136 games by Ovechkin. So the career gap is 62 primary points - that's a good season worth of hockey.

 

[tenken00]

You've certainly made a compelling argument. Guess we can close the thread now.

 

[Zuluss]

I honestly am shocked there is still dispute over this in 2020. Sid and Ovi was fun a decade ago when this was a discussion, now it's sad. I love Ovi but Crosby ended this debate a long long time ago.

A decade ago there was no discussion, really. OV was plain better and way more accomplished. The two things that kept that joke of a discussion going were, first, hype and bias in the media, and second, out-of-hand predictions treated as reality. A good number of people sincerely believed in 2010 that OV would crash and burn in his late 20ies, and Crosby would only become better and better, peak around age 26 and then age very gracefully. Those people would basically say "Crosby is better because he is younger, and it does not matter he is currently getting destroyed by OV in trophy races, Crosby will get his multiple Art Rosses and Harts later".

Now we know it was very premature to treat those projections as facts. Crosby never got his multiple Art Rosses and Harts after 2010, and it was Ovechkin who aged very gracefully and is still winning Rockets at 35.

The only year when Crosby>Ovechkin had legs was 2017, after Crosby's two Conn Smythes, and even then it came down to taste.
But since then Ovechkin got his Cup and Conn Smythe, Ovechkin added three more Rockets, shattering the record, and Crosby>Ovechkin is no longer defensible.

 

[wetcoast]

Wetcoast once again chimes in with the trenchant insight that Crosby picks up more points, while ignoring that Ovechkin's goals provide significantly more value than Crosby's secondary assists.

The whole secondary assist thing has been soundly debunked but let's not stop the narrative about goals shall we.

 

[Regal]

The whole secondary assist thing has been soundly debunked but let's not stop the narrative about goals shall we.

Ovechkin fans will continue to believe that production=offense and that goals are far more valuable than assists, and ignore that there's a ton of aspects that go into creating offense beyond the finishing of a play, and all the underlying numbers point to Crosby having a greater impact on team goals for over their careers.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

A decade ago there was no discussion, really. OV was plain better and way more accomplished. The two things that kept that joke of a discussion going were, first, hype and bias in the media, and second, out-of-hand predictions treated as reality. A good number of people sincerely believed in 2010 that OV would crash and burn in his late 20ies, and Crosby would only become better and better, peak around age 26 and then age very gracefully. Those people would basically say "Crosby is better because he is younger, and it does not matter he is currently getting destroyed by OV in trophy races, Crosby will get his multiple Art Rosses and Harts later".

Now we know it was very premature to treat those projections as facts. Crosby never got his multiple Art Rosses and Harts after 2010, and it was Ovechkin who aged very gracefully and is still winning Rockets at 35.

The only year when Crosby>Ovechkin had legs was 2017, after Crosby's two Conn Smythes, and even then it came down to taste.
But since then Ovechkin got his Cup and Conn Smythe, Ovechkin added three more Rockets, shattering the record, and Crosby>Ovechkin is no longer defensible.

Earlier in this thread I was asked to rank where Brett Hull would be. I guestimated that it would be somewhere around 50th. Led the league three times in goals and had five more times in the top ten.

Now do the same thing with Adam Oates. Oates has more points and was a solid two way player... where does he rank? Is it in the top 100? Probably not. Hull is going to beat him pretty much every time. Why? Because 70+ goal scorers are hard to come by. It's a rare talent to be able to put the puck in the net like that.

Now, Crosby was a much better goal scorer than Oates was. He's more complete than Oates was and he's more than just a set up man. But we're also comparing him to a guy who was far better than Hull was.

Goal scoring is pretty much the most valuable skill you can have in the NHL. It's a rare talent and deserves a premium accordingly. If you have two players who each score 100 points with one scoring 20 goals and the other scoring 50, the triggerman is going to be ranked higher pretty much every time.

The question is: Does Crosby do enough to offset the difference in goal scoring here? He gets more assists and more points and I'd say he's better defensively. I'd agree he's the more complete player. But those goal numbers for OV are crazy.

That's really what the debate comes down to. Is there enough of a delta in those other areas? I personally don't think so but it's far from definitive. These guys are in the same ballpark and are comparable players. Personally I'll take the goal scorer.

 

[Regal]

A decade ago there was no discussion, really. OV was plain better and way more accomplished. The two things that kept that joke of a discussion going were, first, hype and bias in the media, and second, out-of-hand predictions treated as reality. A good number of people sincerely believed in 2010 that OV would crash and burn in his late 20ies, and Crosby would only become better and better, peak around age 26 and then age very gracefully. Those people would basically say "Crosby is better because he is younger, and it does not matter he is currently getting destroyed by OV in trophy races, Crosby will get his multiple Art Rosses and Harts later".

Now we know it was very premature to treat those projections as facts. Crosby never got his multiple Art Rosses and Harts after 2010, and it was Ovechkin who aged very gracefully and is still winning Rockets at 35.

The only year when Crosby>Ovechkin had legs was 2017, after Crosby's two Conn Smythes, and even then it came down to taste.
But since then Ovechkin got his Cup and Conn Smythe, Ovechkin added three more Rockets, shattering the record, and Crosby>Ovechkin is no longer defensible.

That was essentially what happened except Ovechkin reinvented his game to remain an elite goalscorer

 

[tenken00]

Ovechkin fans will continue to believe that production=offense and that goals are far more valuable than assists, and ignore that there's a ton of aspects that go into creating offense beyond the finishing of a play, and all the underlying numbers point to Crosby having a greater impact on team goals for over their careers.

You can have a goal without an assist. But there is no assist without a goal. The assist is inherently dependent on a real instance, the tallying of a goal.

Anyways. It doesn't really matter what anyone thinks right now. We all know that Ovechkin's story is far from over. If he remains as consistent as he has been the past few years, and we truly get a race to catch Gretzky, the entire equation changes yet again.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Orr, Crosby, Béliveau, Jagr, Hull, Richard, are, IMO, above him.

If you include goaltender, Hasek and Roy are there also. But yeah, he's either top 10 or at worst top 15.

He's a legend, is what I'm sayign.

 

[Varan]

Ovechkin fans will continue to believe that production=offense and that goals are far more valuable than assists, and ignore that there's a ton of aspects that go into creating offense beyond the finishing of a play, and all the underlying numbers point to Crosby having a greater impact on team goals for over their careers.

Sure there are factors that lead up to the goal which aren't on the box score and will be blind to the average fan, but you can be a dominant defensive, puck-possessive team who can have a hard time finishing; that's where goals > assists and offense = production. I have seen numerous teams (offensively talented teams) flame out due to their inability to finish a play. That is invaluable in hockey. You can be a great playmaker, do all the right things, get people into prime positions, and still not be able to score. You ability is there no question, but in the end what matters? What shows up in the scoresheet? Whether you were able to score more goals than your opponent.

So yes, finishing is invaluable in today's league and is why offense is always more important than defense, even though it's "half the game".

You want a recent example? The 2020 Leafs, with all that offense, couldn't buy a goal. Hell, the 2019 Bruins in game 7. 2019 Tampa Bay (whose 2020 version just ran through the league). The 2010 Capitals (ironically with the player we are discussing who is the best finisher in the game) during game 5-7.

 

[Hotep Numminen]

i'm going to concoct the perfect post that will finally end the crosby/ovechkin debate once and for all

 

[DrewGl]

Huge homer for Ovi. Great player. Can we just ban any Ovi and or Crosby thread talking about if they are "great" going forward. Good God.