Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[wetcoast]

Why do people think Ovechkin fell off of a cliff? He set the bar extremely high when he was at his peak, so anything below it doesn't mean he sucks.

He's had plently of solid seasons post-2010.

solid seasons and the 2 really lousy ones I mentioned but letès go through these solid seasons.

2011: 85 P in 78 games. Ovechkin put up 87-89 point seasons from 17-19 and he was getting praised. But 85 in 78 and he's no longer great? In his worst season to date, 7th in scoring.

He scored 32 goals that year and despite one of the highest TOI on the PP he went 7-17-24 on the PP that year.

This is also the least season that he was a better than average first line assist guy for a guy with his TOI and PP opportunities.

2013: 56 P in 48 games. He had a stretch from March 12th, 2013 - April 27th, 2013 where he scored 36 P in 24 games (23 goals) to help put his team back in the playoffs. T-3rd in P and 1st in goals (scored 32 goals in a shortened season over prime Stamkos). Hart and Rocket. That was reminiscent of peak-OV.

Yes 12-13 when he beat up on the very weak southeast division and was really meh against the other 2 divisions in an lockout shortened seasons.

2015: 53 goals/81 P in 81 games. Destroyed Stamkos in the goals department and was a runner up for the Hart and Ted Lindsay. The only reason he didn't win, was because Carey Price had one of the greatest seasons for a goalie of all-time. He was considered by many as the best in the world that season because he also put effort in defensively, while maintaining his scoring in an odd, low scoring year. 4th in scoring, 1st in goals.

Yes this again was a great goal scoring seasons the rest of his game were still a far way from his peak and then a disappointing playoff run.

2017-18: After arguably his worst season ever, bounces back with his highest scoring season since his peak. 87 points, carried a not-so-great Capitals team all season long, putting up 49 goals and leading his team to the title. 1st in goals, 11th in points, won the SC, Conn Smythe, Rocket, 2nd in playoff scoring, 1st in playoff goals.

Carried his team is an overstatement as the big 4 including him on the PP is what carried the team and in the playoffs there were others who rose to Conn Smythe worthiness as well or at least really close but we know the narrative of the captain getting the Conn Smythe as it happened with Crosby as well.

2018-19: More goals, more points, hit 50-goals, higher GPG, higher PPG. 9 points in 7 games vs the Canes. Yet he wasn't great because he was 15th in scoring?

Yes you got that right as he still had another season where his focus was on goal scoring and the player he was in his peak he wasn't anymore.

2019-20: You are putting so much weight in the fact that he was one point below PPG, forgetting he would have had 13 more games left to hit or go above PPG. Does 69 in 68 make him great from 67 in 68? He goes from good to "having a season like that" from 2 points? Forget about the fact that he has 48 freaking goals in 68 games. Who cares about his assist totals when the motherf***er could have hit 60 goals! Literally who cares. Isn't it more impressive that he's racking up goals than assist totals?

The rest of his game was dismal there is that chart showing that he was basically the worst player in the NHL in lose puck battles and his ESGF ESGA and minus ranking on a plus team support waht the eye test showed us last year.

He is scoring goals but it is hurting his team overall.

Let me ask you this:

If OV hits 893 instead of 894, does that mean he's not the GOAT goal-scorer? Because of 1 goal? But scoring just ONE MORE GOAL, makes him the GOAT? Is this the line you're walking on from a great to a not good season?

No need to ask me this question he is the GOAT in terms of goal scoring and had been in that mix for a couple of seasons already.

But since his peak he became more of a shooter than an overall impact player, the stats and eye test support this.

Point is, he's had plenty of great seasons post-2010. He was just so great at his peak, that anything below it, is a failure, which is obviously not the case here.

But none like in his peak which was my original point and also a couple of real lousy ones for a player of his stature, reputation and most of all opportunity.

 

[Dominance]

MAF will get in, maybe Letang



That's not the point, the point is that when Crosby is shut down (like in 08/09 finals or in 15/16 series against the Caps), there multiple other Pens who can take over the game or even steal the series.
Ovechkin, on the other hand, either wages a one-man war or has to rely on someone on his team to catch lightning in a bottle, like Kuznetsov or Eller in 17/18.



Playoffs are a different thing. In regular season, having a bad stretch is not a problem, your luck will change. In playoffs, you lose 4 in 7 and you are out. You need game changers who can steal you a game or two even if the team is going through a bad stretch. Caps roster has never really had that besides Ovechkin, they just had a lot of good players who do not have the extra gear, which is a way to grind out a good regular season record, but not a way to make deep PO runs.



There is no argument for Crosby>Ovechkin other than ppg and team awards.
Ovechkin has better peak, better longevity, he is more historically significant, his MVP voting record is at least not worse than Crosby's, he has more individual accolades.
So to make Crosby's case his fans have to resort to "but people think Crosby is better".
Let me remind you again what happened to a similar argument from 10 years ago, when a lot of people drank the kool-aid "Crosby and Ovechkin are 1A and 1B" - this argument did not stand the test of time.

Crosby is the significantly superior hockey player. Full stop. And he is recognized as such. Full stop. It’s not a debate anymore.

You lose.

I and others have worn our fingers down to the bone countless times explaining why to the tiny minority who are stuck in denial. There’s no point in doing it again when the debate does not exist any more.

 

[wetcoast]

MAF will get in, maybe Letang

Man this is so weak.

In 08-09 it WAs Malkin Crosby then a huge gap to the 3rd best player on that SC winning team.

Ièm not even sure if the 3rd best player was MAF with his .908 save % or Letang who was tied for 7th in team scoring.

And for the record Gonchar probably has a better case for the HHOF than Letang and MAF is extremely doubtfull.

just to note in 15-16 Letang was 6th in team scoring but was probably one of the top players on that SC team. MAF played in exactly 2 games and had a .875 save % but yes Crosby was lucky to win the SC that year because of him.....that's what your argument was right.

The 3rd SC for Crosby was the next year were potential HHOFer (at least according to you) didn't play a single minute in the playoffs and MAF was actually very good in the 15 games he played in...but Matt murray was better in the 11 he was in for.

That's not the point, the point is that when Crosby is shut down (like in 08/09 finals or in 15/16 series against the Caps), there multiple other Pens who can take over the game or even steal the series.
Ovechkin, on the other hand, either wages a one-man war or has to rely on someone on his team to catch lightning in a bottle, like Kuznetsov or Eller in 17/18.

Well in 17-18 Backstrom was extremely good as well not to mention Oshie, Calrson and Holtby.

Playoffs are a different thing. In regular season, having a bad stretch is not a problem, your luck will change. In playoffs, you lose 4 in 7 and you are out. You need game changers who can steal you a game or two even if the team is going through a bad stretch. Caps roster has never really had that besides Ovechkin, they just had a lot of good players who do not have the extra gear, which is a way to grind out a good regular season record, but not a way to make deep PO runs.

Sure and I have no problem with Ovechkins individual playoff resume (even if he had never won a SC I was never on that boat) but he has had more poor individual performances than Crosby and Crosby has been the better playoff performer overall.

There is no argument for Crosby>Ovechkin other than ppg and team awards.
Ovechkin has better peak, better longevity, he is more historically significant, his MVP voting record is at least not worse than Crosby's, he has more individual accolades.
So to make Crosby's case his fans have to resort to "but people think Crosby is better".
Let me remind you again what happened to a similar argument from 10 years ago, when a lot of people drank the kool-aid "Crosby and Ovechkin are 1A and 1B" - this argument did not stand the test of time.

There are tons of arguments for Crosby over Ovechkin, 2 way play, more impact per game, and we aren't talking small samples here but a 15 year career, valley or down periods not nearly as bad as Ovechkin or put another way consistency, and he was a better international player as well.

You might call it kool-aid but the evidence is there to back it up.

Also you are right since 09-10 it hasn't been 1a and 1b Crosby has clearly been better.

NHL Stats

NHL Stats

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Breaking Gretzky's record will seat him somewhere in the top-10, but there isn't a decent argument to be made for a guy with only one Art Ross to flirt with 5th.

Art Ross or not the guy has NINE goal scoring titles. And he's won seven of the last eight, including the last three.

 

[Zuluss]

Crosby is the significantly superior hockey player. Full stop. And he is recognized as such. Full stop. It’s not a debate anymore.

Except that he is not. He has less Harts, less Lindsay/Pearson nominations, Ovechkin's three best seasons are better than the best season by Crosby (there were multiple polls with this result).
Many Crosby fans believed in 2007-2010 there is no debate that Ovechkin and Crosby are close. Now we are looking back at that period and cannot fathom where they were coming from.
If you firmly believe something and know of people who believe the same thing, this thing can still be very far from truth.

 

[Zuluss]

In 08-09 it WAs Malkin Crosby then a huge gap to the 3rd best player on that SC winning team.

Ièm not even sure if the 3rd best player was MAF with his .908 save % or Letang who was tied for 7th in team scoring.

And for the record Gonchar probably has a better case for the HHOF than Letang and MAF is extremely doubtfull.

just to note in 15-16 Letang was 6th in team scoring but was probably one of the top players on that SC team. MAF played in exactly 2 games and had a .875 save % but yes Crosby was lucky to win the SC that year because of him.....that's what your argument was right.

The 3rd SC for Crosby was the next year were potential HHOFer (at least according to you) didn't play a single minute in the playoffs and MAF was actually very good in the 15 games he played in...but Matt murray was better in the 11 he was in for.

Thanks for making my point. Every Crosby's Cup run either Malkin is lighting it up, or Letang is one of the best players on the team, or MAF can at least step in after a rookie goalie had his hot streak and ran out of steam. That's the benefit of having multiple HOFers on your team - you never have to try and do it alone. Someone else is always playing great beside you.

he has had more poor individual performances than Crosby

This is not true. Ovechkin scored three points or less in two playoff series, and he played one of them on a fractured foot.
Crosby scored three points or less in five playoff series, and afaik only SCF vs. Detroit can be written off to an injury.
Crosby had a series when he scored nothing (2012/13, "peak Crosby" fwiw). Crosby has five series when he scored no goals. Ovechkin does not have anything of the kind.

There are tons of arguments for Crosby over Ovechkin, 2 way play, more impact per game

How come Crosby has less Harts and less Lindsay/Pearson nominations?

we aren't talking small samples here but a 15 year career, valley or down periods not nearly as bad as Ovechkin or put another way consistency

Just curious: do you also judge Lafleur by his "valleys" and "down periods"? Dionne had more elite seasons and was more consistent, so Dionne>Lafleur?
How about Jagr? Are you ready to jump on him for just eight seasons on an All-star team?
Besides, Ovechkin has as many seasons with a meaningful share of Hart vote as Crosby has healthy seasons. One can complain endlessly about 71 points in 79 games being a low number, but if this stat line puts Ovechkin 6th in Hart voting, with more votes than Crosby can collect when he finishes top3 in points, maybe "impact per game" and "points per game" are two different things. Crosby has more of the latter, but Ovechkin has more of the former.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Without question, he absolutely is and so is Crosby.

 

[wetcoast]

Thanks for making my point. Every Crosby's Cup run either Malkin is lighting it up, or Letang is one of the best players on the team, or MAF can at least step in after a rookie goalie had his hot streak and ran out of steam. That's the benefit of having multiple HOFers on your team - you never have to try and do it alone. Someone else is always playing great beside you.

This is what you said and the reason why Crosby has more SCs is basically because he was a better playoff performer.

as obvious that Crosby played with multiple Hall of Famers and Ovechkin did not, so it will not be surprising that Crosby has more Cups.

This is not true. Ovechkin scored three points or less in two playoff series, and he played one of them on a fractured foot.
Crosby scored three points or less in five playoff series, and afaik only SCF vs. Detroit can be written off to an injury.
Crosby had a series when he scored nothing (2012/13, "peak Crosby" fwiw). Crosby has five series when he scored no goals. Ovechkin does not have anything of the kind.

I was talking about playoff years, if you really want to go down this route it will lead to PPG and we all know how great that makes Ovi look in comparison to Crosby.

How come Crosby has less Harts and less Lindsay/Pearson nominations?

Really you know the answer is injuries and even with those injuries Crosby has more top 3 Hart- Art ross seasons than Ovi.

Just curious: do you also judge Lafleur by his "valleys" and "down periods"? Dionne had more elite seasons and was more consistent, so Dionne>Lafleur?

I do judge Lafleur on what he did outside of his peak and I think Dionne is the better player historically by a bit.

How about Jagr? Are you ready to jump on him for just eight seasons on an All-star team?

I also rank Jagr higher than most around these parts and higher than Ovechkin as of right now.

Besides, Ovechkin has as many seasons with a meaningful share of Hart vote as Crosby has healthy seasons.

Well Crosby has 10 healthy seasons and Ovi has 5 times been top 5 in Hart voting so maybe you have a different meaning of meaningfull here.

Heck in 12-13 Ovi barely beats Crosby in the Hart voting (I would have picked Crosby as I have already outlined the circumstances around Ovi that year) and that's not a healthy season for Crosby.

One can complain endlessly about 71 points in 79 games being a low number, but if this stat line puts Ovechkin 6th in Hart voting, with more votes than Crosby can collect when he finishes top3 in points, maybe "impact per game" and "points per game" are two different things. Crosby has more of the latter, but Ovechkin has more of the former.

Using a reputation Hart vote to try to argue impact per game and PPG is just really silly.

I mean its pretty obvious that Kopitar was more valuable to his team and a better player than Ovechkin that year yet he only gets 53 Harts points to Oviès 213...come on now.

Crosby over his career has had more of both as he also has 2 way play going for him.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Crosby is the significantly superior hockey player. Full stop. And he is recognized as such. Full stop. It’s not a debate anymore.

You lose.

I and others have worn our fingers down to the bone countless times explaining why to the tiny minority who are stuck in denial. There’s no point in doing it again when the debate does not exist any more.

In no way is this a consensus truth, sorry and the further we get from both players being retired the better Ovechkin will be remembered comparatively.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Art Ross or not the guy has NINE goal scoring titles. And he's won seven of the last eight, including the last three.

Since 2010, Ovechkin's top-10 point finishes are 3, 4, 7, 8.

Since 2010, Crosby's top-10 point finishes are 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 5, 10 - that's minus this season where he was injured (north of PPG), and his two infamous shortened seasons where he was destroying the league.

I said that Ovechkin can be in the top-10 because of his goal-scoring prowess. But when we're talking about fifth place behind the legendary Mount Rushmore of hockey, being a trigger man is a dirge, not a boon.

 

[Fantomas]

Breaking Gretzky's record will seat him somewhere in the top-10, but there isn't a decent argument to be made for a guy with only one Art Ross to flirt with 5th.

Maurice Richard is 5th on some lists and he never led the league in points.

 

[Fantomas]

Ovechkin has very loud and obnoxious haters, but in time they will melt like the wicked witch and the numbers will speak for themselves.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Maurice Richard is 5th on some lists and he never led the league in points.

The Maurice Richard that exists in the minds of Montreal fans is essentially a myth.

 

[Fantomas]

The Maurice Richard that exists in the minds of Montreal fans is essentially a myth.

Maurice "a mere trigger man" Richard.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Since 2010, Ovechkin's top-10 point finishes are 3, 4, 7, 8.

Since 2010, Crosby's top-10 point finishes are 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 5, 10 - that's minus this season where he was injured (north of PPG), and his two infamous shortened seasons where he was destroying the league.

I said that Ovechkin can be in the top-10 because of his goal-scoring prowess. But when we're talking about fifth place behind the legendary Mount Rushmore of hockey, being a trigger man is a dirge, not a boon.

Goals are worth more than assists. They are harder to come by and leading nine times is an absolutely insane number. OV and Crosby are both fantastic and I'm not going to listen to anyone who says it's not close between them. Personally I'd take Ovechkin but if somebody argued for Crosby that's fine as well. Not close? Can't make a case? Forget that.

Number five is a crazy spot to compete for any player. Richard, Harvey, Hull, Beliveau, Hasek, Roy... you can make cases for all of them. But you can make a case for Ovechkin there as well.

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

Yeah he is. Look at his trophy case.

He's got his Cup. Good shot at best goal scorer in NHL history.

 

[The Colonel]

No doubt top 10. True argument would be for top 5.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Goals are worth more than assists.

Alright.

Rank Brett Hull.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Alright.

Rank Brett Hull.

Without looking up any lists, I'd say he's probably somewhere around 50th.

Edit: Just took a look at Hull's profile on Hockey Reference. Ovechkin has finished first in goals more than Hull has top ten finishes. That is absolutely insane.

 

[Riddum]

More points
WAY more goals
More Harts

It isn’t all that outrageous

Your post is insulting.

Ovi:
Regular season
GP: 1,152 G:706 A:572 PTS: 1,278
Playoffs
GP:136 G:69 A:62 PTS:131

Crosby:
Regular season
GP:984 G:462 A:801 PTS:1,263
Playoffs
GP:168 G:68 A:121 PTS:189

Ovi has 15 more pts in the regular season, while having played 168 more games. Most of these missed games are from when Crosby was at his prime and peak. Crosby could have added another 90 to 100 goals in those 168 games.

Look at the playoffs stats.

 

[Riddum]

Ovechkin’s the one who is making history. Crosby will continue putting up points for another few years and maybe squeak into the top 10. Meanwhile, Ovechkin is at least a slam dunk for the #2 or 3 goal scorer, and has an outside chance of breaking Gretzky’s record. He’s won as many Harts as any player not named Gretzky, and has won the Richard more than any player has won any award other than Wayne w/ the Art Ross.

In 20-30 years, Crosby will be remembered as a great player, but Ovechkin’s name will be at the top of the all-time leaderboards.

The Hart is a joke. If it wasn't, Jagr would have way more Hart Trophies. That said, Jagr had a bad reputation.

Lester/Ted Lindsay has more value

 

[Hatfield]

Your post is insulting.

Ovi:
Regular season
GP: 1,152 G:706 A:572 PTS: 1,278
Playoffs
GP:136 G:69 A:62 PTS:131

Crosby:
Regular season
GP:984 G:462 A:801 PTS:1,263
Playoffs
GP:168 G:68 A:121 PTS:189

Ovi has 15 more pts in the regular season, while having played 168 more games. Most of these missed games are from when Crosby was at his prime and peak. Crosby could have added another 90 to 100 goals in those 168 games.

Look at the playoffs stats.

You can quibble about the points and number of games played (although some of us see value in players staying healthy) but Ovechkin’s still way ahead in goals and hardware. Plus he’s chasing records.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Maurice "a mere trigger man" Richard.

Richard was pretty incredible himself. Five time goal leader and came in 2nd five times in points - twice to Howe. He finished the all time points and goals leader, passed shortly later by Howe. For all of that though what really made his career was how good he was in the playoffs. Guy was an absolute playoff beast.

 

[berlin]

I hate ranking players. Let’s just say he’s one of the greatest and leave it at that.

 

[wetcoast]

I hate ranking players. Let’s just say he’s one of the greatest and leave it at that.

Fitting post