It's no less baseless to assume he can't. Talent is talent. It's not like he's a 5 foot 7 goalie from 1900. Elite players adapt to the times and stay good players, that's why we see them have 20 +year careers. Howe was 3rd in the league in scoring as a 40 year old in 68-69, the same time a 20 year old Bobby Orr was winning his 2nd Norris trophy in a row, who won the Art Ross in 74-75, the same year a 23 year old Marcel Dionne was 3rd in scoring, who then won the Art Ross in 79-80 while a rookie Ray Bourque was winning the Calder. The same Bourque who was runner up to the Norris in 00-01 while his teammate Joe Sakic won the Hart, the same Joe Sakic who outscored a 21 year old Ovechkin in 06-07 despite being 37 years old. How are all these players able to excel across eras and in a league with each other if the talent doesn't grow and adapt with the times? It makes no sense to assume great athletes wouldn't always be great athletes if they grew up in modern times unless there's specific reasons related to the sport that would affect performance, such as the 5 foot 7 goalie.
Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?
- Thread starter DangleBojangle
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It's no less baseless to assume he can't. Talent is talent. It's not like he's a 5 foot 7 goalie from 1900. Elite players adapt to the times and stay good players, that's why we see them have 20 +year careers. Howe was 3rd in the league in scoring as a 40 year old in 68-69, the same time a 20 year old Bobby Orr was winning his 2nd Norris trophy in a row, who won the Art Ross in 74-75, the same year a 23 year old Marcel Dionne was 3rd in scoring, who then won the Art Ross in 79-80 while a rookie Ray Bourque was winning the Calder. The same Bourque who was runner up to the Norris in 00-01 while his teammate Joe Sakic won the Hart, the same Joe Sakic who outscored a 21 year old Ovechkin in 06-07 despite being 37 years old. How are all these players able to excel across eras and in a league with each other if the talent doesn't grow and adapt with the times? It makes no sense to assume great athletes wouldn't always be great athletes if they grew up in modern times unless there's specific reasons related to the sport that would affect performance, such as the 5 foot 7 goalie.
Top 10 all time no doubt, only question is how far can he move up the list. If he breaks Gretzky’s record in this low scoring era, which is absolutely insane, he’d probably be #5 behind the big 4.
Really? How about telling us where on this list Ovechkin would fall right now?
While this list has it's problems and it's from 2017 Ovechkin is going to have a hard time cracking it and there are some really good playoff performers not on this list of 40 players
HOH Top 40 Stanley Cup Playoff Performers of All Time
GreatGonzo
Registered User
So it’s “it’s the truth because I say so?” Pretty hard to argue against a now it all I suppose.....
I mean, if it’s so true, then prove it. How hasn’t he been a great playoff performer? Because the typical responses are “he didn’t make it past the second round!” Or “he isn’t a good leader!” Those are usually the go to scapegoats for posters like yourself who think they are right no matter what.
It’s hilarious how a TEAM sport and a team accomplishment like the Stanley cup can suddenly turn into a one player blame, why? Because it’s Ovechkin.
so feel free to state your claim without thinking you don’t have to, because if he wasn’t upping his game in the playoffs, then state your reasons, would love to hear how “unbiased” you are.
Go look at Crosby’s numbers In the first round and how many points he compiled feasting on defensive weak teams like Philly, then come back to conversation.
Name ten with better regular season resumes that still have a cup and smythe, I’ll wait.
Why is Jagrs weak? I mean that’s a pretty ridiculous statement coming from a Pens fan. He has two Stanley cups, does he not?
Porkleaker
Registered User
As long as he keeps playing as he seems to want to, I see no reason why not. He's a beast and earned all of his accolades.
Varan
Registered User
In between low 10s/high teens for me. Somewhere in the 08-12 range so not solidified yet, but can be, and it looks like he will be.
As an aside, what a clusterf*** this thread is. The usual suspects are in full form.
As an aside, what a clusterf*** this thread is. The usual suspects are in full form.
Dustin
Registered User
- Sep 24, 2014
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Doubt he's top 10. Probably the greatest goal scorer of all time but if we are including goalies and defensemen I can't see too many arguments for him to be there.
Hatfield
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- Jan 27, 2007
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Are you even being serious here all of Malkin, Gilmour, Kane, Forsberg, Moose and Fedorov have better playoff resumes than Ovi plain and simple, you appear to be simply looking at stats and not context here.
Sure it is the consensus is that Crosby is ahead of Ovi and that's extremely unlikely to change.
Here is how they stack up regular season and playoffs combined.
Crosby 1152-530-922-1452
Ovechkin- 1288-775-634-1409
so in 136 less games Crosby has 43 more points than Ovi.
But sure Crosby is piling up extra points in the playoffs right.
Ovi doesn't gain any ground in terms of international play either.
HarrySPlinkett
Not a film critic
I mean, yeah. He’s the best pure scorer in the history of the game.
Ovechkin did all his damage against goalies with actual pads.
Who would do all sorts of things like fall down to make a save.
Guys who could reach every item at the grocery store.
Ovechkin did all his damage against goalies with actual pads.
Who would do all sorts of things like fall down to make a save.
Guys who could reach every item at the grocery store.
Hatfield
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Ovechkin’s the one who is making history. Crosby will continue putting up points for another few years and maybe squeak into the top 10. Meanwhile, Ovechkin is at least a slam dunk for the #2 or 3 goal scorer, and has an outside chance of breaking Gretzky’s record. He’s won as many Harts as any player not named Gretzky, and has won the Richard more than any player has won any award other than Wayne w/ the Art Ross.
In 20-30 years, Crosby will be remembered as a great player, but Ovechkin’s name will be at the top of the all-time leaderboards.
Look I already have Ovechkin as the best goal scorer of all time but he hasn't been the peak 08-10 Ovi since then.
A great goal scorer to be sure but as an overall player these past 10 years has seen his overall impact as a player drop from the awesome peak.
As for the Harts, look at the complete picture Crosby hit the ground running and has played at an elite level in every single season and doesn't have an Ovi 11-12, 16-17 or heck even last season on his resume.
The numbers I posted don't lie they show how dominant Crosby has been in the last 15 years.
Ten years ago, the consensus was that 2007-2010 version of Ovechkin was very close to 2007-2010 version of Crosby, "they are 1A and 1B".
The media hype machine has stopped since then, now the consensus is that Ovechkin's 2007/08 is so far the best season of the 21st century and nobody since Jagr has really come close to Ovechkin's 2007-2010 peak.
The same will happen to the comparison of their careers: Ovechkin will be viewed as the best goal-scorer ever (and might become the guy who beat one of the Gretzky records), whose overall peak was unsurpassed for decades.
The new generation of fans will grow up with the knowledge that Ovechkin has a Cup and Conn Smythe, so all the talk about playoff failures that haunted Ovechkin during his career will not have traction. 10-15 years down the road people will view it as obvious that Crosby played with multiple Hall of Famers and Ovechkin did not, so it will not be surprising that Crosby has more Cups. And after a few decades of the salary-cap era we will stop thinking it is obvious that an all-time great has to have a Cup: Thornton will retire without one, and just imagine if McDavid and MacKinnon also do. So breaking through without the lucky coincidence of having several HOFers on the team will have much more value than simply doing what one has to do as an all-time great.
What lucky to HHOFers does Crosby have exactly outside of Malkin.
Remember those first 2 times to the SC finals Detroit focused on shutting down Crosby and let the chips fall where they may with Malkin.
Crosby also has a better playoff resume than Malkin, its not like he is riding the coattails of anyone.
People forget that Ovi has had some really good support as well and that Washington actually has a better regular season record than Pittsburg right.
What's next, Grezkty was lucky to play with some HHOFers.
Varan
Registered User
Why do people think Ovechkin fell off of a cliff? He set the bar extremely high when he was at his peak, so anything below it doesn't mean he sucks.
He's had plently of solid seasons post-2010.
2011: 85 P in 78 games. Ovechkin put up 87-89 point seasons from 17-19 and he was getting praised. But 85 in 78 and he's no longer great? In his worst season to date, 7th in scoring.
2013: 56 P in 48 games. He had a stretch from March 12th, 2013 - April 27th, 2013 where he scored 36 P in 24 games (23 goals) to help put his team back in the playoffs. T-3rd in P and 1st in goals (scored 32 goals in a shortened season over prime Stamkos). Hart and Rocket. That was reminiscent of peak-OV.
2015: 53 goals/81 P in 81 games. Destroyed Stamkos in the goals department and was a runner up for the Hart and Ted Lindsay. The only reason he didn't win, was because Carey Price had one of the greatest seasons for a goalie of all-time. He was considered by many as the best in the world that season because he also put effort in defensively, while maintaining his scoring in an odd, low scoring year. 4th in scoring, 1st in goals.
2017-18: After arguably his worst season ever, bounces back with his highest scoring season since his peak. 87 points, carried a not-so-great Capitals team all season long, putting up 49 goals and leading his team to the title. 1st in goals, 11th in points, won the SC, Conn Smythe, Rocket, 2nd in playoff scoring, 1st in playoff goals.
2018-19: More goals, more points, hit 50-goals, higher GPG, higher PPG. 9 points in 7 games vs the Canes. Yet he wasn't great because he was 15th in scoring?
2019-20: You are putting so much weight in the fact that he was one point below PPG, forgetting he would have had 13 more games left to hit or go above PPG. Does 69 in 68 make him great from 67 in 68? He goes from good to "having a season like that" from 2 points? Forget about the fact that he has 48 freaking goals in 68 games. Who cares about his assist totals when the motherf***er could have hit 60 goals! Literally who cares. Isn't it more impressive that he's racking up goals than assist totals?
Let me ask you this: If OV hits 893 instead of 894, does that mean he's not the GOAT goal-scorer? Because of 1 goal? But scoring just ONE MORE GOAL, makes him the GOAT? Is this the line you're walking on from a great to a not good season?
Point is, he's had plently of great seasons post-2010. He was just so great at his peak, that anything below it, is a failure, which is obviously not the case here.
Dominance
99-66-4-9-87/97
The fact that the few remaining people who think Crosby isn’t better than Ovi have to resort to some complete hypothetical of what people 30 years from now will think tells you EVERYTHING you need to know about the state of this “debate,” if you can even call it that anymore.
Yes its ridiculous to even compare Ovechkin to Crosby not any one of top coaches of the world would take Ovy over Crosby.
all time as in the start of nhl? of course not.
and player including goalies and defenseman? wtf.
If we talk about all time we just ignore the first 50 years where Howie Morenz, Eddie Shore etc were consider the best through 50 years of hockey??
Even if we talk modern hockey say from the 1950s+. I don't have him top 10.
Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Howe
locks.
2 goalies I have over him for sure:
Hasek - nothing needs to be said. If you ever watched Hasek in his prime, there's no way you rather have Ovi than him if you want to win.
Roy- Patrick Roy's 3 Conn Smythe, 4 cups and him revolutionizing the "butterfly" makes him greater IMO comfortably.
Defenseman:
Denis potvin, Ray Bourque, Nicklas Lidstrom.
Denis Potvin - goes to a lowly Isles team and turn them into a dynasty. 100 point defenseman who was also excellent defensively and has a mean streak. Nevermind leadership to boot. Probably as complete a dman you can find, IMO he's the best defenseman I saw outside of Orr.
Ray bourque- what makes Ovechkin great is how he is able to "consistently" score, if we are talking about longevity Ray bourque longevity is legendary. I build a team around Bourque every time over Ovechkin.
Lidstrom - same with Lidstrom.
thats already 9.
If we talk about all time scorers, hes way up there. Personally, Ovechkin's game is too 1- dimensional, his game without the puck was way below average for most of his career. He got better in the last few years in being more mindful of his responsibilites. but still I wouldn't consider him good defensively. And being on a decent team he has too little playoff success to be in the top 10.
I mean if we focus on offense. I take Jagr who is another "offense" not defense superstar. Not only did he also played well into his 40s, he reached a higher peak.
I think hes somewhere in the 10-25 range. Depends on what you prefer.
and player including goalies and defenseman? wtf.
If we talk about all time we just ignore the first 50 years where Howie Morenz, Eddie Shore etc were consider the best through 50 years of hockey??
Even if we talk modern hockey say from the 1950s+. I don't have him top 10.
Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Howe
locks.
2 goalies I have over him for sure:
Hasek - nothing needs to be said. If you ever watched Hasek in his prime, there's no way you rather have Ovi than him if you want to win.
Roy- Patrick Roy's 3 Conn Smythe, 4 cups and him revolutionizing the "butterfly" makes him greater IMO comfortably.
Defenseman:
Denis potvin, Ray Bourque, Nicklas Lidstrom.
Denis Potvin - goes to a lowly Isles team and turn them into a dynasty. 100 point defenseman who was also excellent defensively and has a mean streak. Nevermind leadership to boot. Probably as complete a dman you can find, IMO he's the best defenseman I saw outside of Orr.
Ray bourque- what makes Ovechkin great is how he is able to "consistently" score, if we are talking about longevity Ray bourque longevity is legendary. I build a team around Bourque every time over Ovechkin.
Lidstrom - same with Lidstrom.
thats already 9.
If we talk about all time scorers, hes way up there. Personally, Ovechkin's game is too 1- dimensional, his game without the puck was way below average for most of his career. He got better in the last few years in being more mindful of his responsibilites. but still I wouldn't consider him good defensively. And being on a decent team he has too little playoff success to be in the top 10.
I mean if we focus on offense. I take Jagr who is another "offense" not defense superstar. Not only did he also played well into his 40s, he reached a higher peak.
I think hes somewhere in the 10-25 range. Depends on what you prefer.
MAF will get in, maybe Letang
That's not the point, the point is that when Crosby is shut down (like in 08/09 finals or in 15/16 series against the Caps), there multiple other Pens who can take over the game or even steal the series.
Ovechkin, on the other hand, either wages a one-man war or has to rely on someone on his team to catch lightning in a bottle, like Kuznetsov or Eller in 17/18.
Playoffs are a different thing. In regular season, having a bad stretch is not a problem, your luck will change. In playoffs, you lose 4 in 7 and you are out. You need game changers who can steal you a game or two even if the team is going through a bad stretch. Caps roster has never really had that besides Ovechkin, they just had a lot of good players who do not have the extra gear, which is a way to grind out a good regular season record, but not a way to make deep PO runs.
There is no argument for Crosby>Ovechkin other than ppg and team awards.
Ovechkin has better peak, better longevity, he is more historically significant, his MVP voting record is at least not worse than Crosby's, he has more individual accolades.
So to make Crosby's case his fans have to resort to "but people think Crosby is better".
Let me remind you again what happened to a similar argument from 10 years ago, when a lot of people drank the kool-aid "Crosby and Ovechkin are 1A and 1B" - this argument did not stand the test of time.
Hatfield
Registered User
- Jan 27, 2007
- 1,101
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In the context of the conversation, it’s a perfectly valid argument. Whenever you see all-time player rankings, it’s done by taking into account all awards, accomplishments and records into consideration.
People in the future will know and care about:
-Stats
-Records
-Individual hardware
People will care less about:
-How he “made his teammates better”
-Defensive play, unless it’s superlative (which doesn’t describe Crosby)
-Team awards, except as a negative against players who never won
Crosby benefitted tremendously from the hype and role as “face of the league” from Day 1. While he’s undeniably great, he has never been quite as good as NHL marketing teams, Pens fans and Canadian hockey media have billed him. So it’s likely that hockey historians in the future will have a more clear-eyed view of his importance, especially compared to Ovechkin.
Alexander the Gr8
Registered User
Well I always thought it was dumb to compare wingers to defensemen or goalies to centers etc.
How do you compare the career of two individuals who played vastly different positions with similar levels of achievement?
Is Jagr better than Hasek? Is Roy better than Sakic?
To me, if you’re going to compare Ovechkin to anyone, it should be players who played similar roles at the same position. Hull, Esposito, Richard, Bure etc.
How do you compare the career of two individuals who played vastly different positions with similar levels of achievement?
Is Jagr better than Hasek? Is Roy better than Sakic?
To me, if you’re going to compare Ovechkin to anyone, it should be players who played similar roles at the same position. Hull, Esposito, Richard, Bure etc.
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