Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[FrozenJagrt]

How is he not a top 10 player? Do people actually think guys like Gordie Howe were better hockey players than Ovi? Ovechkin is bigger, faster, stronger, better skater, better shooter, better stickhandler, better hitter, etc. Better at every aspect of the game because the game has gotten exponentially more competitive since 2000 due to the advancement of technique, on and off-ice trainers, equipment, nutrition, population pool, etc. Prime Gordie Howe can't even skate under today's standards. People are f***ing stupid.

Give Gordie all of those modern advantages and he's the best player in the league today.

 

[wetcoast]

In the playoffs the Caps depth dried up annually scoring wise and their inability to defend at the blue line was a constant achilles heel. Oh, and their goaltenders were constantly outplayed, but sure it's Ovechkins shortcomings.

Point to me where I said that the Caps playoff exits were Ovechkins shortcomings?

I have always defended Ovis playoff resume as pretty good with a couple of meh years even before his SC run.

That being said the outlandish efforts to paint Ovechkins teams and support as weak can get embarrassing at times.

Perhaps you might call those false claims out as well?

For the record there are easily 40 to 50 players with better playoff resumes all time and some of them had excellent regular season resumes as well.

 

[BlueMed]

Give Gordie all of those modern advantages and he's the best player in the league today.

That's not how it works.

 

[filinski77]

Point to me where I said that the Caps playoff exits were Ovechkins shortcomings?

I have always defended Ovis playoff resume as pretty good with a couple of meh years even before his SC run.

That being said the outlandish efforts to paint Ovechkins teams and support as weak can get embarrassing at times.

Perhaps you might call those false claims out as well?

For the record there are easily 40 to 50 players with better playoff resumes all time and some of them had excellent regular season resumes as well.

Really? All time for playoffs:

49th in points (will likely finish in top 20 by the end of his career)
22nd in goals (will likely finish 12th or higher depending on how well the Caps do)
20th in points/gp (minimum 100gp), which is great considering the lower scoring era
8th in goals/gp (minimum 100gp) which is also impressive considering era, and the fact that he is only 0.02 from FIFTH

The guy literally has a higher point/gp than Kane, and only 0.06 lower than Malkin (who both are considered amazing playoff performers)

 

[4thTierSport]

Really? All time for playoffs:

49th in points (will likely finish in top 20 by the end of his career)
22nd in goals (will likely finish 12th or higher depending on how well the Caps do)
20th in points/gp (minimum 100gp), which is great considering the lower scoring era
8th in goals/gp (minimum 100gp) which is also impressive considering era, and the fact that he is only 0.02 from FIFTH

The guy literally has a higher point/gp than Kane, and only 0.06 lower than Malkin (who both are considered amazing playoff performers)

Nah, bro. Bag of pucks and further considerations are totally better in the playoffs.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

He already is top 10

 

[FrozenJagrt]

That's not how it works.

Sure it is. When comparing across eras, you have to account for the environment the player played in and make adjustments accordingly.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Some are able to raise their level of play come play off time.
OV was not known as one of those players. For 10 years.
But you are right, the play off defeats were a collective Capitals problem. They were good, but never great at play off hockey.

Ovechkin lead the Caps in post season play nearly every year over the last 10 years, yet he never “elevated” his play? But you acknowledge that the team around him didn’t rise to the occasion either?.....

OV has 18 assists so far this season.

2 in his last 15 games.

So your saying that if he had 20 more assists, and let’s say 15 of them were secondary assists, he would then be more worthy in your mind?

apparently assists>goals.

the majority of ovis are not impressive in the slightest even in his peak most were rebound assists

How desperate can one be

 

[filinski77]

Sure it is. When comparing across eras, you have to account for the environment the player played in and make adjustments accordingly.

And that's exactly what league average scoring does...

It already factors in: The better goalies, better defensive systems, better skates and sticks, lighter equipment, bigger goalie pads etc.

The reason league average scoring has gone down so significantly is because the increase in goalie and defensive quality outweighs the increase in sticks and skates for players.

 

[Brun0]

Yes.

If he breaks Grezky I would say best ever. No doubt.

And this is coming from a Finn.

 

[BlueMed]

Sure it is. When comparing across eras, you have to account for the environment the player played in and make adjustments accordingly.

You can't assume that players will adapt as well to the same era as other players. That's baseless extrapolation.

 

[wetcoast]

Really? All time for playoffs:

49th in points (will likely finish in top 20 by the end of his career)
22nd in goals (will likely finish 12th or higher depending on how well the Caps do)
20th in points/gp (minimum 100gp), which is great considering the lower scoring era
8th in goals/gp (minimum 100gp) which is also impressive considering era, and the fact that he is only 0.02 from FIFTH

The guy literally has a higher point/gp than Kane, and only 0.06 lower than Malkin (who both are considered amazing playoff performers)

Sorry but using counting stats would make Glenn Anderson a top 10 playoff performer of all time.

Heck even if we only look post expansion (1967 onwards) does anyone seriously have Ovechkin as a top 10 playoff performer over that time period.....among forwards never mind Dmen and Goalies.

Off the top of my head there is Gretzky, Lemieux, Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov, Messier, Gilmour, Crosby, Malkin and Kane among others.

 

[Toene]

Top 10 skater for sure. But if you add the goalies to the mix Im not sure.

 

[lottster14]

Ovechkin a top 10 player all time yes, but I think most of the arguments against this have to do with Ovechkin the person. Not saying I agree, just what I see.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Sorry but using counting stats would make Glenn Anderson a top 10 playoff performer of all time.

Heck even if we only look post expansion (1967 onwards) does anyone seriously have Ovechkin as a top 10 playoff performer over that time period.....among forwards never mind Dmen and Goalies.

Off the top of my head there is Gretzky, Lemieux, Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov, Messier, Gilmour, Crosby, Malkin and Kane among others.

Your argument is weak. He hit you with hard facts and now you’re back pedaling.

 

[filinski77]

Sorry but using counting stats would make Glenn Anderson a top 10 playoff performer of all time.

Heck even if we only look post expansion (1967 onwards) does anyone seriously have Ovechkin as a top 10 playoff performer over that time period.....among forwards never mind Dmen and Goalies.

Off the top of my head there is Gretzky, Lemieux, Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov, Messier, Gilmour, Crosby, Malkin and Kane among others.

1) Wasn't only using counting stats, considering I also added /gp stats as well, but I guess you could completely ignore that

2) 1967 onward to now would probably compose at least 60% (if not more of the top players in NHL history), so even being 20th (hypothetically) would pretty much cement you in the top 30-35th all time, yet your argument originally was "easily 40 or 50" lmao. So I don't even have to get close to proving he's top 10 from 1967 onwards to prove your original statement was bullshit.

3) I'll obviously give you Gretz/Lemieux/Sakic/Crosby, but:

Player	G/GP	P/GP
Ovechkin	0.51	0.98
Forsberg	0.42	1.13
Federov	0.28	0.96
Messier	0.46	1.25
Gilmour	0.33	1.03
Malkin	0.39	1.04
Kane	0.39	0.97

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-Malkin/Kane/Gilmour: Similar point/gp, but Ovechkin blows them away in goalscoring (one of the hardest things to do, especially in the playoffs)
-Forsberg: His advantage in points is about the same as Ovi's in goalscoring, but I can probably still give Forsberg the edge
Messier: Worse goalscoring, despite playing in an era with roughly 30-35% higher scoring, which makes up for the point difference without considering what Ovi's relative goalscoring would be
Federov: Not sure if his defensive edge makes up for scoring at half the rate Ovi does

Team success =/= individual ability or success

 

[Kevin McLaughlin]

I would say he’s borderline top 10.. maybe not quite there just yet. Ovi, currently, I would say is around 15th. But when he retires he will undoubtedly be in top 10. He’s been AT LEAST a 50 goal-scorer eight times and going on nine. Also lead Washington to their first ever Cup and had an extraordinary postseason. In my opinion, he is the greatest sniper in league history and might fall within the top 7-8 players ever when it’s all over.

 

[TheAngryHank]

1) Wasn't only using counting stats, considering I also added /gp stats as well, but I guess you could completely ignore that

2) 1967 onward to now would probably compose at least 60% (if not more of the top players in NHL history), so even being 20th (hypothetically) would pretty much cement you in the top 30-35th all time, yet your argument originally was "easily 40 or 50" lmao. So I don't even have to get close to proving he's top 10 from 1967 onwards to prove your original statement was bullshit.

3) I'll obviously give you Gretz/Lemieux/Sakic/Crosby, but:

Player	G/GP	P/GP
Ovechkin	0.51	0.98
Forsberg	0.42	1.13
Federov	0.28	0.96
Messier	0.46	1.25
Gilmour	0.33	1.03
Malkin	0.39	1.04
Kane	0.39	0.97

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-Malkin/Kane/Gilmour: Similar point/gp, but Ovechkin blows them away in goalscoring (one of the hardest things to do, especially in the playoffs)
-Forsberg: His advantage in points is about the same as Ovi's in goalscoring, but I can probably still give Forsberg the edge
Messier: Worse goalscoring, despite playing in an era with roughly 30-35% higher scoring, which makes up for the point difference without considering what Ovi's relative goalscoring would be
Federov: Not sure if his defensive edge makes up for scoring at half the rate Ovi does

Team success =/= individual ability or success

Feds is easly the best 200 foot player and it isn't close ,that includes Z and Dats. There have been some very good others but playoff Feds was a scary beast.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Point to me where I said that the Caps playoff exits were Ovechkins shortcomings?

I have always defended Ovis playoff resume as pretty good with a couple of meh years even before his SC run.

That being said the outlandish efforts to paint Ovechkins teams and support as weak can get embarrassing at times.

Perhaps you might call those false claims out as well?

For the record there are easily 40 to 50 players with better playoff resumes all time and some of them had excellent regular season resumes as well.

Laughable

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Or could be there are 10 players that can legitimately be picked ahead of him.

That is not an insult to OV or your hockey IQ buddy. Just due credit and fact on the other 10.

Again, while I think he's there that wasn't the argument, the argument is if he's close. The user literally said he isn't close which is how this started, I'm putting forward that by any measuring stick we have in hockey, Alexander Ovechkin is objectively close to the top 10 of all time players, the only way you can make a case otherwise is bias.

 

[bobbyking]

Ovechkin lead the Caps in post season play nearly every year over the last 10 years, yet he never “elevated” his play? But you acknowledge that the team around him didn’t rise to the occasion either?.....

So your saying that if he had 20 more assists, and let’s say 15 of them were secondary assists, he would then be more worthy in your mind?

apparently assists>goals.

How desperate can one be

right you and midnight have been here on every page it's not me it's you guys. you know it's the truth whether or not hes the goat goal scorer . I'm un biased

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Some are able to raise their level of play come play off time.
OV was not known as one of those players. For 10 years.
But you are right, the play off defeats were a collective Capitals problem. They were good, but never great at play off hockey.

Yet Ovechkin's numbers without a reliable secondary scoring threat throughout his career outside of one season, are excellent. He's never had a Malkin, or a second scoring line like the Bruins have had, he literally never had this outside of one year and they won the Cup.

Again, he's been one guy basically going smashing into more complete teams for the majority of his career without reliable scoring depth to help him out. It's been pretty much all on him and history has proven that no one has ever won anything in this league in similar circumstance; Not Mario, not Ovechkin.

 

[wetcoast]

Your argument is weak. He hit you with hard facts and now you’re back pedaling.

Counting stats without context is also really weak otherwise people might argue(very wrongly BTW) that Mike Gartner was a much better goal scorer than Maurice Richard when that simply doesn't pass the smell test in any way shape or form.

 

[K Fleur]

90% of Ovechkin’s career playoff points have come against first and second round opponents.

There are plenty of reasons to argue him as a top 10 player of all time but his playoff resume is not one of them.

The only other player with a serious argument for top 10 player all time with a playoff resume as “weak” as Ovi’s is Jaromir Jagr.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

90% of Ovechkin’s career playoff points have come against first and second round opponents.

There are plenty of reasons to argue him as a top 10 player of all time but his playoff resume is not one of them.

The only other player with a serious argument for top 10 player all time with a playoff resume as “weak” as Ovi’s is Jaromir Jagr.

Lol are you serious? It takes a complete team effort to go deep into the playoffs ffs. 90% of his points are in the first 2 rounds because 90% of his games played are in the first 2 rounds. Ovechkin was the greatest scoring threat of this generation in the regular season AND in the playoffs.
Ovechkin:
GP: 128 G: 65 A: 61 P: 126
GPG: .508 PPG .984

The only active player with a better goals per game in the playoffs than Ovechkin is Guentzel and that’s with a very small sample size compared to The Great 8. Ovechkin did it all.