Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[Fantomas]

Well I'm on phone right now so I can't look up the exact totals

LOL. Who posts like this.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Um maybe it's time for a reality check here eh?

Your post,like mine, and all the other posts here are subjective opinions.

Anyone claiming, to use your words here, that "they are completely correct" need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Well actually a whole mine of salt.

No, Ovechkin is objectively close to the top 10 of all time players if not there now by the measuring stick of people that matter in hockey. The notion he isn't based on the barometers we use for individual accolades and records is riduclous.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Well I'm on phone right now so I can't look up the exact totals but any player that his supporters claim is one of the top goal scorers in the league and according to some on here still a Hart candidate should have more than 17 PP points given the amount of ice time and SOG Ovi takes.

I think people needs to look at the facts of the matter, ie actual production, TOI and SOG and focus less on the jersey number here and then they would all agree that the actual production is underwhelming given the other factors I mentioned.

Just as worrying is the -14 on a very good Caps team and once again the eytest backs this up.

At age 34 this isn't a good trend.

Dude the fact you keep quoting plus minus like it's some wonderful indicator of anything continually discredits what you're saying. The points leader IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE is a -11 and a -28 for his career. So ya, Draisaitl is garbage and is hurting his team based on Wetcoast rationale.

Also, this very good Caps team has been .500 for 2 months.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Well I'm on phone right now so I can't look up the exact totals but any player that his supporters claim is one of the top goal scorers in the league and according to some on here still a Hart candidate should have more than 17 PP points given the amount of ice time and SOG Ovi takes.

I think people needs to look at the facts of the matter, ie actual production, TOI and SOG and focus less on the jersey number here and then they would all agree that the actual production is underwhelming given the other factors I mentioned.

Just as worrying is the -14 on a very good Caps team and once again the eytest backs this up.

At age 34 this isn't a good trend.

I'm glad you mentioned he's 34. Let's discuss that for a bit.

Compare what he's doing on the PP at 34 to the two guys ahead of him in career PPG. Andreychuk had a 15 PPG season at age 39; he had 20 for the entire season. Since guys have typically peaked and are on the downhill part of their career at age 34, I don't know why you'd hold Ovechkin to the standard you'd hold a Matthews, Draisaitl, Pastrnak, etc. - guys who are in the prime of the careers - to.

At 34, production in terms of TOI, SOG, whatever you want to use should be declining. I wouldn't expect him to be cranking out goals like he's 24. Again, why you'd hold him to a standard virtually no one else has ever met, I don't know. (Though, I'll also point out that while I can't easily get total ES Goals/60 off the NHL site, I can see 5v5 - and there, Ovechkin's G/60 is higher than everyone else near the top of the league lead in goals. Again, at age 34. And yet, apparently he still needs to do more.)

His -14 is largely due to 9 SHG against (or, all the SHG Washington has allowed). He's -4 at even strength. Backstrom is +3. Kuznetsov is +3. It's like Draisaitl's -11: he's -1 at even strength, then has been on for 10 SHGA. McDavid is +1, has been on for 8 SHGA. And everyone is eerily silent about last year when Ovechkin was +12 at even strength, or the year prior when he was +10, or the year prior to that when he was +9.

[To the Hart discussion: anyone arguing he's a Hart candidate this season is nuts. He's not. Not even close. Rocket candidate? Absolutely, but most goals doesn't automatically mean "player most valuable to his team" (which is what the Hart is supposed to be) or "best overall player in the league" (which is what the Lindsay should represent).]

He's 30-freaking-4, people. Quit acting like he's still in the prime of his career and he's so freaking good, he practically takes up the spot of 3 people when he's on the ice. Put the entire picture of his career into perspective, quit cherry-picking the negative parts of this season as a basis for dinging the shit out of everything he's done career-to-date.

 

[Future GOAT]

Jagr at #5 and on the outside looking in? Guy's everywhere!

At least the Jagr who is at #5 is the legit one.

 

[wetcoast]

No, Ovechkin is objectively close to the top 10 of all time players if not there now by the measuring stick of people that matter in hockey. The notion he isn't based on the barometers we use for individual accolades and records is riduclous.

If by close you mean in the top 20 sure but it's still just an opinion not objective at all.

Like I have stated previously alot of people here are saying he is already a lock for top 10 when he isn't even the best player of his generation and we have over 100 years of players to choose from.

2nd best player in the generation doesn't automatically keep Ovechkin out but he isn't another Mario.

 

[daver]

Ovechkin will have scored 800 goals by the end of his career, only Gretzky and Howe have accomplished that feat. Era adjusted goals relative to league scoring rates and percentage of teams total goals Ovechkin blows Gretzky out of the water. There is no logical argument that could be made to keep Ovechkin out of the top 10; lack of a Stanley Cup could’ve been a valid reason, but he put that to rest with an incredible playoff performance. Adding a Conn Smythe to his ridiculous level of other accolades and hardware cement him as top 10. Posters pointing out flaws in his overall game, no player is perfect, Gretzky was poor defensively, weak in board battles and lacked adequate checking in his game; Messier and MacT would take the big draws with the Oilers. We would never hold this against Gretzky because of his insane offensive output than why do it with Ovechkin? You could argue OV’s lack of a great all around game if he finished with around 650-700 goals, not when he’ll have 800+ and is considered the greatest goal scorer of all time. Ovechkin’s overall game as a winger was pretty good, besides being the GOAT goal scorer he had incredible size, speed, athleticism and passion. He was extremely tough to handle and dished out a lot of hard hits. There really is no logical argument to keep “The Great 8” out of the top 10 when he reaches 800 goals in this era, it’s simply remarkable.

He won't be considered that though. If he was, that would be indisputable at this point.

 

[filinski77]

I'm glad you mentioned he's 34. Let's discuss that for a bit.

Compare what he's doing on the PP at 34 to the two guys ahead of him in career PPG. Andreychuk had a 15 PPG season at age 39; he had 20 for the entire season. Since guys have typically peaked and are on the downhill part of their career at age 34, I don't know why you'd hold Ovechkin to the standard you'd hold a Matthews, Draisaitl, Pastrnak, etc. - guys who are in the prime of the careers - to.

At 34, production in terms of TOI, SOG, whatever you want to use should be declining. I wouldn't expect him to be cranking out goals like he's 24. Again, why you'd hold him to a standard virtually no one else has ever met, I don't know. (Though, I'll also point out that while I can't easily get total ES Goals/60 off the NHL site, I can see 5v5 - and there, Ovechkin's G/60 is higher than everyone else near the top of the league lead in goals. Again, at age 34. And yet, apparently he still needs to do more.)

His -14 is largely due to 9 SHG against (or, all the SHG Washington has allowed). He's -4 at even strength. Backstrom is +3. Kuznetsov is +3. It's like Draisaitl's -11: he's -1 at even strength, then has been on for 10 SHGA. McDavid is +1, has been on for 8 SHGA. And everyone is eerily silent about last year when Ovechkin was +12 at even strength, or the year prior when he was +10, or the year prior to that when he was +9.

[To the Hart discussion: anyone arguing he's a Hart candidate this season is nuts. He's not. Not even close. Rocket candidate? Absolutely, but most goals doesn't automatically mean "player most valuable to his team" (which is what the Hart is supposed to be) or "best overall player in the league" (which is what the Lindsay should represent).]

He's 30-freaking-4, people. Quit acting like he's still in the prime of his career and he's so freaking good, he practically takes up the spot of 3 people when he's on the ice. Put the entire picture of his career into perspective, quit cherry-picking the negative parts of this season as a basis for dinging the shit out of everything he's done career-to-date.

Excellent post. In only 63 games, Ovechkin already has the SECOND most goals in NHL history of any 34-year-old season, he only needs 5 more to take sole possession of #1 in this case. And will also finish (most likely) #1 in ESG for the same-aged seasons

If he cranks out 4 more PPG's this season, he'll be at #2 in 34-year old season for PPG's (only 1 behind #1). Ovi realistically couldn't be doing better (from a goalscoring perspective) than he is, considering his age.

Put it this way, if/when Ovechkin scores 2 more this season, to reach 45, look at how many times the other top players of this generation have scored 45 goals or more in a season in their career:

Crosby - 1
Malkin - 2
Kane - 1
McDavid - 0

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

What a lot of posters fail to recognize is that Ovechkin is a winger not a centre. Wingers don’t have the same overall impact on the game as a centre or defenceman would. His overall game will appear to be slightly more one dimensional but he was an extremely effective winger for what a winger is supposed to do. Hard, fast and tenacious on the forecheck, covered the point man and his side board in the defensive zone very well which lead to countless odd man rushes, was excellent in transition. Incredible combination of size, speed, athleticism and passion. He was extremely difficult to handle and dished out a lot of hard hits. His explosiveness has slowed down with age, but the man was a beast in his prime and was nearly impossible to contain.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Complete fallacy. Ovechkin only has 1 cup because for a decade he had horrible goaltending, a blue line that couldn't shut down anyone and no other players that could pick up the scoring slack. Ovechkin impacted both zones early in his career by being the greatest scoring threat of the generation, he was always a threat to break the zone and kept defensemen honest when he was on the ice. They didn't lose any of those early flameout because Ovechkin and thinking this way is what armchair, ill informed fans do.

In addition, does Joe Thornton not have any cups because he didn't impact both sides?

Agreed. He was the greatest threat of his generation. Always first in on the forecheck and so difficult to contain. Was too fast for the older slower Caps teams and was usually 1 against 3 until his teammates caught up, finally when the team got much younger better and faster they won a Cup. Some posters are forgetting just how dominant Prime Ovechkin was.

 

[Fantomas]

As much as it hurts me right in the guts, I must yield to the fact that Ovechkin is - in fact - among the top 10 goal scorers of all time.

It's not easy for me to say this. Don't get me wrong. But I am an open-minded person and deal only with the facts.

In a couple of years he might also prove himself to be among the top 100 players of all time. But only if he scores 50 at least twice more. I am not budging on this.

 

[Lindros_for_rizzle_]

He´s cemented himself as the greatest goal scorer in NHL history which means there´s no option to put him outside a top 10 all-time player ranking. If he breaks Gretzky´s goal record, you can argue him as top 1 all-time player. I wouldn´t, but it would cement him in that group. I don´t think people understand the implications if Ovechkin reaches that record, especially in this era.

 

[SuperHockeyFanSN]

As much as it hurts me right in the guts, I must yield to the fact that Ovechkin is - in fact - among the top 10 goal scorers of all time.

It's not easy for me to say this. Don't get me wrong. But I am an open-minded person and deal only with the facts.

In a couple of years he might also prove himself to be among the top 100 players of all time. But only if he scores 50 at least twice more. I am not budging on this.

He needs to study under Toews a bit, maybe get his Canadian citizenship somehow and work on the intangibles, yes scoring goals is nice and breaking Gretzky's record is ok (I guess), but has he ever shut down a 3rd line? Has he ever won a draw on the PK? This is the sort of stuff that separates good from great.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

The Xenophobia in this thread is alarming if he was Canadian he’d be ahead of Crosby and asking if he was top 10 would be insulting to his greatness.

 

[wetcoast]

He won't be considered that though. If he was, that would be indisputable at this point.

I think at this point Oveckhin already has a strong case as the greatest goalscorer of all time.

When he scores 800 it should solidify it for anyone else.

 

[wetcoast]

Agreed. He was the greatest threat of his generation. Always first in on the forecheck and so difficult to contain. Was too fast for the older slower Caps teams and was usually 1 against 3 until his teammates caught up, finally when the team got much younger better and faster they won a Cup. Some posters are forgetting just how dominant Prime Ovechkin was.

Yes he was dominant and had a great peak but it sounds like you are looking at his teammates for o ly a couple of seasons at best here.

Ovechkin has had some pretty good teammates despite the efforts by some to say otherwise.

 

[Todd Parchment]

By the time he retires he will be top 5

 

[Holkoun]

He is not any close to top10. He is great, but he is also ridiculously overrated on this board. Top 10 player is not the same as the top 10 goalscorer

 

[Allan92]

The Xenophobia in this thread is alarming if he was Canadian he’d be ahead of Crosby and asking if he was top 10 would be insulting to his greatness.

Funny, the only thing said that's xenophobic is your comment. Nobody said anything about him being Russian so why did you bring it up?

 

[shtorm2005]

Top 10 player is not the same as the best goalscorer

Fixed for you.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yes he was dominant and had a great peak but it sounds like you are looking at his teammates for o ly a couple of seasons at best here.

Ovechkin has had some pretty good teammates despite the efforts by some to say otherwise.

Not when it came to the playoffs, where...as deep as the Caps were, their scoring dried up fast outside of Ovechkin. Look at Kuzy before 2018, look at Backstrom and Green before that.

Of course he had pretty good teams, it takes a “pretty good” team to win a cup. But just because a team is good doesn’t guarantee any success come playoff time.

 

[The Panther]

He´s cemented himself as the greatest goal scorer in NHL history....

No... no, he hasn't. There's an argument to be made for him, of course, but nobody in history has ever "cemented" their status as the greatest goal-scorer.

If he breaks Gretzky´s goal record, you can argue him as top 1 all-time player.

No... no, you can't. That's just ridiculous.

I don´t think people understand the implications if Ovechkin reaches that record, especially in this era.

There are no implications. If he finishes with 800 goals or 895 goals it changes nothing whatsoever about his legacy.

 

[Holkoun]

Fixed for you.

Fine with that;-)

 

[jalidi]

I don´t think people understand the implications if Ovechkin reaches that record, especially in this era.

Which record? Gretzky's 1016 NHL goals, including playoffs? Or his 1072 professional goals? I think Ovechkin may very well end up being the greatest goal scorer of all time, especially by notching 895 in this era, but best player, no way. Gretzky has more assists alone than anyone else has points, and was +520 for his career even with a broken back in the Dead Puck Era. He is eternally #1.

 

[daver]

I think at this point Oveckhin already has a strong case as the greatest goalscorer of all time.

When he scores 800 it should solidify it for anyone else.

He is becoming the Gordie Howe of goalscorers. A few others reached a higher peak, a few others have had better playoff performances, but his longevity of prime puts him among the very best.

That players like Wayne and Mario, who in a vacuum are candidates for GOAT goalscorer, were so dominant overall offensively will, IMO, always make a GOAT goalscorer claim for players like OV, Richard or Hull, to be taken with a grain of salt.