Honour Over Glory
#firesully
- Jan 30, 2012
- 82,283
- 46,625
According to FSG, Sullivan, dipshits like Yohe and most of Pens media - yes is correct.
And that's why so much has failed.
Salary Cap: '24-'25 Salary Thread: Crosbicles Volume MMXXVI: Sid is Still Goat
- Thread starter Zirakzigil
- Start date
And that's why so much has failed.
Honour Over Glory
#firesully
- Jan 30, 2012
- 82,283
- 46,625
You know what's funny, Grok will let me make an image of Sid crying in clown make up, even Dubas, but the moment I ask it to do it for Mike Sullivan, it refuses to create any image in his likeness. LOL
HandshakeLine
A real jerk thing
Sure does. Nashville had no retention spots left though. $2.75 million this year and next is a little pricey.
Honour Over Glory
#firesully
- Jan 30, 2012
- 82,283
- 46,625
Nah, the Pens get 2 more slots back next season anyway.
The team has Ufa's in - Beau, Bemstrom, Shea, and Grz. Then the cap is going up and the trades that are likely to happen at the draft and off season to unload players teams will actually want.
Is retaining 50% on 2.75m for a year and a quick fart really going to sink this team? No, Sullivan is already doing that while not being on the cap.
Schenn is a veteran RHD and at 1.375m he's a bargain for a contender to add depth and keep at that price for another season for a lot of these contenders. Dallas would've been a team I think would be curious at that cost, but taking their 3rd and a prospect like Blumel would leave them with no picks in the first 4 rounds, lol.
The moving parts to move EK is an off season situation, moving Raks I don't see happening and they shouldn't retain on Raks anyway. Retention on a short contract like Schenn with the last slot is fine. Especially the kind of player he is and how often teams like loading up on his types for depth.
Honour Over Glory
#firesully
- Jan 30, 2012
- 82,283
- 46,625
I think it'd be hilarious if Dubas ended up doing:
To Toronto:
Luke Schenn, 50 retained (maybe dump Bemstrom to them)
To Pens:
Nick Robertson
To Toronto:
Luke Schenn, 50 retained (maybe dump Bemstrom to them)
To Pens:
Nick Robertson
I'm saying Trotz couldn't retain but Dubas can. There's value there. Certainly more than the 4th Dubas gave up.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
IMO I would trade Schenn for a 2nd rounder or higher in value, but I wouldn’t flip him if you can’t get that kind of value back. You’re essentially guaranteed to be able to get a 3rd for him next year, so I’d just keep him and trade him next year if they can’t get better than that now.
This team is as soft as baby shit on defense, Schenn does bring some useful abilities in that sense. And it’s not like he’s blocking any young defenseman from playing, in fact he’s probably an ideal partner for Kolyachonok if they’d give him a long look as the 3rd pair LD. Their 2nd and 3rd pairs next year should be Pickering-Letang and Kolyachonok-Schenn.
This team is as soft as baby shit on defense, Schenn does bring some useful abilities in that sense. And it’s not like he’s blocking any young defenseman from playing, in fact he’s probably an ideal partner for Kolyachonok if they’d give him a long look as the 3rd pair LD. Their 2nd and 3rd pairs next year should be Pickering-Letang and Kolyachonok-Schenn.
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McGroarty2
Registered User
Thus far in 2025.....
OUT: ($10.225)
Pettersson ($4.025)
O'Connor ($.925)
Puljujarvi ($.775)
Bunting ($4.500)
2026 4th
IN: ($9.275)
Heinen ($2.250)
Fernstrom
2025 1st *
2028 5th
Kolyachonok ($.775)
Novac ($3.500)
Schenn ($2.750)
OUT: ($10.225)
Pettersson ($4.025)
O'Connor ($.925)
Puljujarvi ($.775)
Bunting ($4.500)
2026 4th
IN: ($9.275)
Heinen ($2.250)
Fernstrom
2025 1st *
2028 5th
Kolyachonok ($.775)
Novac ($3.500)
Schenn ($2.750)
Empoleon8771
Registered User
I’d still be trying very hard to trade Heinen if you could do it. Sullivan clearly doesn’t like him, based on him being immediately demoted to 4th line usage upon arriving, and I think his roster spot needs to either be filled with a young player or an actual proven 3rd liner. I think they should be looking to get a goal scorer with size and grit to play as that 3rd line LW opposite of Tomasino.
In an ideal world, I think they trade all of Acciari, Heinen, Rakell and Beauvillier at forward and have a basis of something like this:
Malkin-Crosby-Rust
XXXX-Novak-XXXX
XXXX-Hayes-Tomasino
Lizotte-Ponomarev-Glass
Fill those middle-6 winger spots however you see fit. I think you leave the young guys in WBS for now, but you could fill two of those spots with McGroarty (3LW) and Koivunen (2RW) for next year.
In addition, I’ve come around to Hayes sticking around as the 3C. Dude moves like a snail but he’s been effective in the role he’s been used in this year. Sell him next year at the deadline but hold onto him until then, unless you can get good value for trading him now.
In an ideal world, I think they trade all of Acciari, Heinen, Rakell and Beauvillier at forward and have a basis of something like this:
Malkin-Crosby-Rust
XXXX-Novak-XXXX
XXXX-Hayes-Tomasino
Lizotte-Ponomarev-Glass
Fill those middle-6 winger spots however you see fit. I think you leave the young guys in WBS for now, but you could fill two of those spots with McGroarty (3LW) and Koivunen (2RW) for next year.
In addition, I’ve come around to Hayes sticking around as the 3C. Dude moves like a snail but he’s been effective in the role he’s been used in this year. Sell him next year at the deadline but hold onto him until then, unless you can get good value for trading him now.
Duffy13
(ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ ┻━┻
Amazingly Hayes will only be 33 next year... Dude looks rough.
I'd rather start Malkin on his own line do something like
Novak-Sid-Rust
Lizotte - Geno- Tomasino
Then play the 3rd and 4th line like they are both 3rd lines... We don't need a 4th grinding shutdown line as Sullivan doesn't line match, so the home games where we have last change, it's always 3rd and 4th vs 3rd and 4th lines so fill them up with whoever is left and WBS kids and let them play in the role you want them to play.
The main reason the 4th line doesn't get caved in, in goals against is because they are playing against other teams shitty 4th lines the majority of the time. Which makes their offensive output even more pathetic.
This was my worry. He’s not rebuilding which meant he should have just kept Jake.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Not sure how one trade invalidates the obvious rebuilding trend this team has done for the last year. Not every single trade a rebuilding team makes will be players for picks and prospects.
In the past year, this team has sold off Pettersson, O'Connor, Guentzel, Smith and Eller for futures and got paid futures to take on Glass and Hayes. And it sounds very likely Karlsson is traded for futures in the off-season and possible Rakell is traded for futures at the deadline or off-season.
Is San Jose not rebuilding because they traded a pick for Desharnais?
The trade and his words. This is about the third time we’ve heard Dubas say he’s looking to compete sooner than later.
Maybe more moves to come Friday but I think people need to start listening to Dubas when he says he wants to compete while Sid is still here.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Actions speak louder than words. The actions this team has done in the last calendar year suggests they are rebuilding. A single change of scenery trade doesn't change anything.
I think some fans have a weird expectation for what a "rebuild" looks like. Teams don't just trade all of their NHL players for picks and prospects. Look at San Jose, they've been selling off a ton but they still traded assets for Desharnais, Liljegren and Askarov and signed Toffoli and Wennberg to multi year UFA deals in the past year.
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Duffy13
(ﾉಥ益ಥ）ﾉ ┻━┻
Washington retooled quicker by building up the AHL for a very solid foundation, then hit on a couple draft picks, wholesale change of coaches, and then hit it on free agents.
Technically if we are doing that, we are in the building the AHL foundation part of the plan, which for Sid and Geno, is about 2 years too late, but for us, it's better now than later. With minimum 3 1st round picks the next two years, hopefully more through trades, then the 2nd stage is complete.
Old school tear it down to the studs doesn't work anymore, talent is too spread out with so many teams... Chicago is going to lose Bedard if they don't do something to turn it around. They have too many Acciari's, thankfully we only have 1, but it's the original, so that sucks lol.
I will say the same thing I say to the opposing political party. If this is the right path, we’ll find out in the next couple years.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Looking at the Penguins 5v5 stat rates, it's really sticking out how desperately the bottom-6 needs someone who can score goals. The Penguins bottom-6ers have shockingly low assists/60 rates, which really tanks their 5v5 points/60 rates. Tomasino is a good example of this, he's been a good playmaker at 5v5 IMO but he only has a 0.44 assists/60 and 0 secondary assists.
Beauvillier (0.93), Tomasino (0.88) and Lizotte (0.75) all have good 5v5 goal rates, but their 5v5 points rates are lacking due to them not getting many assists. Something else that sticks out is that Glass has a very good primary assist rate, he's at 0.74 primary assists/60 which is nearly as good as Malkin. He can't score but he's good at setting up his linemates for goals. Beyond that, the bottom-6 is a complete wasteland. It also doesn't help that Beauvillier's numbers are partially propped up by his time spent with Crosby.
I did just say that I'd like to trade Heinen, but I think they'd be fine keeping him and making L4 Heinen-Lizotte-Glass. Heinen has shown to be able to both score goals and be a playmaker in the past, while Lizotte looks like a good goal scorer and Glass is a good playmaker. I'd also be completely good with trading Heinen and re-signing Beauvillier to fill Heinen's spot, I would honestly prefer doing that. I like Tomasino as the offensive driver on L3. Beyond that, they need significant help for the 3rd line to have a bottom-6 that is even remotely competent.
Guys like Acciari (0.6 5v5 points/60) and Nieto (0.39 5v5 points/60) simply need to go away, and Hayes (0.53 goals/60 and 1.2 points/60) needs to produce more to warrant staying in the lineup. The Penguins have done a good job at purging some of the shitty 5v5 producers on the team with shipping out O'Connor and Bunting, but they need to do more.
Beauvillier (0.93), Tomasino (0.88) and Lizotte (0.75) all have good 5v5 goal rates, but their 5v5 points rates are lacking due to them not getting many assists. Something else that sticks out is that Glass has a very good primary assist rate, he's at 0.74 primary assists/60 which is nearly as good as Malkin. He can't score but he's good at setting up his linemates for goals. Beyond that, the bottom-6 is a complete wasteland. It also doesn't help that Beauvillier's numbers are partially propped up by his time spent with Crosby.
I did just say that I'd like to trade Heinen, but I think they'd be fine keeping him and making L4 Heinen-Lizotte-Glass. Heinen has shown to be able to both score goals and be a playmaker in the past, while Lizotte looks like a good goal scorer and Glass is a good playmaker. I'd also be completely good with trading Heinen and re-signing Beauvillier to fill Heinen's spot, I would honestly prefer doing that. I like Tomasino as the offensive driver on L3. Beyond that, they need significant help for the 3rd line to have a bottom-6 that is even remotely competent.
Guys like Acciari (0.6 5v5 points/60) and Nieto (0.39 5v5 points/60) simply need to go away, and Hayes (0.53 goals/60 and 1.2 points/60) needs to produce more to warrant staying in the lineup. The Penguins have done a good job at purging some of the shitty 5v5 producers on the team with shipping out O'Connor and Bunting, but they need to do more.
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Washington’s two top scorers are former 3rd overall picks that weren’t be used correctly.
Protas and McMichael were in the AHL for a bit but they were drafted 6 years ago.
I don’t see similarities between what we’re doing and what they did.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Yeah I don't think anyone is saying that the Penguins don't need to make great moves to end up like the Capitals, but the plan seems to be rebuild more like the Capitals rather than the Hawks.
I do think it's warranted to ask why they didn't re-sign Guentzel if they want to do a quick rebuild, but I also think it's extremely unlikely that this team finishes their rebuild before Crosby's next deal expires. They will need to replace Guentzel somehow in the future, either with a young guy exploding or hitting on a big time UFA, but I think the decision to trade him still makes sense.
Had you signed him to an 8 year deal last year, you likely wouldn't be in a win-now mode until the second half of that deal. And at that point, would a 34 year old Guentzel really be helping you that much? You're likely better off trying to pull off a 28 year old Guentzel type of player in UFA once the team is ready to compete again than signing a 30 year old Guentzel last year and not being in a win-now mode until he's in his mid 30s.
If they want to do a quick rebuild, that's why I think signing Marner this off-season would make more sense. If their goal is to be ready to compete in 2028-2029, Marner would 31 at that point compared to 34 for Guentzel. But it makes more sense to wait another year or two so that major piece is like 28 or 29 when they're ready to start contending.
