Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[Sentinel]

Is Ovechkin a top-10 player of all time?
No, probably not even that close.

Is Ovechkin a top-10 goal-scorer of all time?
Yes, obviously.

You're being awfully generous. /sarcasm

If he passes Gretzky for goals scored, he leapfrogs over Richard and Hull and will be close to Top 5.

 

[wetcoast]

You're being awfully generous. /sarcasm

If he passes Gretzky for goals scored, he leapfrogs over Richard and Hull and will be close to Top 5.

Ovi supporters are going to need a different narrative soon as the record one is flimsy and perhaps out of range.

Some actual better play than being a minus 14 player who plays more than any player on the PP and has a PP line of 12 goals and 5 assists is indicating that his position of playing more PP minutes by a large margin over other NHL forwards might change going forward.

 

[SpinningEdge]

Ovi supporters are going to need a different narrative soon as the record one is flimsy and perhaps out of site.

Some actual better play than being a minus 14 player who plays more than any player on the PP and has a PP line of 12 goals and 5 assists is indicating that his position of playing more PP minutes by a large margin over other NHL forwards might change going forward.

Do you really want to view stats then?

ovi has more ES goals than anyone by a wide margin since coming in league.

Ovi has more individual awards than anyone since coming in the league.

Ovi has more points than anyone since coming in the league.

moving has more hits than anyone since coming in the league.

He’s won constantly. President Trophies. Stanley Cup.

To act like he’s just a pp specialist is so very dumb of a argument. He’s 34 now so of course slowed down - but his numbers and awards are nuts. The guy is about to score 50+ goals again at 34.... that’s special. No one has done what he’s doing EVER past the age of 30 scoring goals.

 

[The Panther]

If he passes Gretzky for goals scored, he leapfrogs over Richard and Hull and will be close to Top 5.

I don't think Ovechkin's legacy or historical ranking will have anything to do with breaking or not breaking the career goals record. That's kind of irrelevant at this point.

When you say "Top 5", are you talking about goal-scoring? I think Ovechkin is very comfortably there, and has been a for a couple of years or more. I don't think there's much of an argument against his being top-3 all time, by now.

I mean, maybe at a stretch, someone could make a credible case for his being as "low" as fifth -- esp. if you want to prioritize peak-level domination, international hockey, or playoff goal-scoring -- but even that would be difficult at this stage. He's gotta be top-3 in NHL history by now.

 

[Goose]

Then you're a terrible businessman. Ovy put more butts in the seats than any player this century.

What on earth are you talking about lol

 

[GreatGonzo]

Ovi supporters are going to need a different narrative soon as the record one is flimsy and perhaps out of site.

Some actual better play than being a minus 14 player who plays more than any player on the PP and has a PP line of 12 goals and 5 assists is indicating that his position of playing more PP minutes by a large margin over other NHL forwards might change going forward.

Why are you carefully selecting stats that only further your agenda?

 

[Zuluss]

When you say "Top 5", are you talking about goal-scoring? I think Ovechkin is very comfortably there, and has been a for a couple of years or more. I don't think there's much of an argument against his being top-3 all time, by now.

With some reasonable longevity after the current season (think a top5 finish and two more top10 finishes in goals) OV will be a pretty clear-cut #1 goal-scorer ever. He may well get Gretzky's career goals record along the way to cement his reputation among casual fans, but even if he retires with 830 or 850 goals, he will still be the best goal-scorer ever.
(This is not to mention how much his legend will grow if in the next 20-30 years we do not see a five-times Rocket winner and/or someone who will lead the field by more than peak Ovechkin did).

It seems simply wrong to keep the best goal-scorer ever out of top10 players all-time. It is like having no goalies in top10-top15 players all-time or having no defensemen there other than Orr.

On the other hand, having the best goal-scorer ever as #5 player all-time seems an obvious choice for anyone who values goal-scoring highly. There will not probably be any consensus about that, and this is why Ovechkin is not going to change Big4 into Big5, but he will be a popular choice for #5 all-time if all or almost all things in the first paragraph above come true.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

If Ovechkin actually breaks Gretzky's record top 10 or not I think he finishes ahead of Crosby

 

[The Panther]

It seems simply wrong to keep the best goal-scorer ever out of top10 players all-time. It is like having no goalies in top10-top15 players all-time or having no defensemen there other than Orr.

On the other hand, having the best goal-scorer ever as #5 player all-time seems an obvious choice for anyone who values goal-scoring highly.

I get what you're saying -- the point of hockey games is to outscore the opposition; therefore, the guy who was best at scoring goals has to be top-5. To the lay fan, that might seem logical, but in reality it doesn't work like that.

To start with, I personally think (and you may disagree) that the rarest and most valuable offensive hockey players are the ones who are elite -- or at least very, very good -- at both scoring goals and at setting them up (play-making, if you like). Ovechkin in his heyday had a few top-10 assists seasons, which is good, and he had his one and only scoring title in 2008. He clearly is/was a competent and skilled passer/playmaker... but he has never been elite at it, and has only rarely been, say, top ten or fifteen in the play-making category. Anyway, I would personally (and you may disagree) rank someone like Jaromir Jagr (or Jean Beliveau) ahead of Ovechkin in terms of offensive ability and overall impact, largely because Jagr was better at both scoring goals and setting them up. 5 scoring titles is far more impressive than 1, and while Ovechkin's goals-titles are otherworldly (in fact, the most ever in the NHL), I simply don't find goals totals to be nearly as impressive as point totals, especially among the players who are good at both scoring and setting up (less so the Joe Thornton / Adam Oates type, who is not impressive as a goal-scorer). Bobby Hull had one fewer (so far) NHL goals' title than Ovechkin (plus another in the WHA), but he also had three scoring titles to Ovechkin's one, and a bunch of top-6 assists finishes.

Next, there is obviously consideration of defensive play and goaltenders. (Ovechkin doesn't get any notable points for these, obviously!) We've got D-men who won 7 or 8 Norris trophies (Harvey, Lidstrom) in addition to Bobby Orr. Then, there are the greatest goaltenders ever, such as Plante, Hall, Roy, and Hasek.

I like Ovechkin very much, of course (who doesn't?), but from watching him, I don't get the sense of him driving his line, or controlling the play on the ice as much as some of the greatest players ever.

That said, if he's a near-consensus top-3 all time goal scorer (which I think he is by now), he still has to rank very high in the all-time players' lists, of course. I personally would rank him somewhere around 15th or so, but it's an inexact science. In any case, I cannot really see any argument for him in fifth-place. That just seems way too high, regardless of how many goals he ends up with.

 

[wetcoast]

Do you really want to view stats then?

ovi has more ES goals than anyone by a wide margin since coming in league.

Ovi has more individual awards than anyone since coming in the league.

Ovi has more points than anyone since coming in the league.

moving has more hits than anyone since coming in the league.

He’s won constantly. President Trophies. Stanley Cup.

To act like he’s just a pp specialist is so very dumb of a argument. He’s 34 now so of course slowed down - but his numbers and awards are nuts. The guy is about to score 50+ goals again at 34.... that’s special. No one has done what he’s doing EVER past the age of 30 scoring goals.

I see that you failed to understand my post.

We all know what Ovechkin did in the past but my post was about chasing Gretzky.

The fact of the matter is that Ovechkin has a 12-5 power play line this year with exceptionally high PP time.

That time will dwindle with that type of production as its hurting the team.

 

[wetcoast]

Why are you carefully selecting stats that only further your agenda?

First I have no agenda only observations and opinions like most people on here.

Secondly I was responding to the narrative promoted by many here about Gretzky's goal scoring record and Ovechkin PP production this year.

Going into next year the coach of the capitals won't be relying on stats from 06-10 but rather what has been happening lately.

And the bottom line is that in a 61 game sample the 12-5 line with that amount off PP time will be hard to defend going forward.

Or are you going to argue against the facts here with something else?

 

[wetcoast]

If Ovechkin actually breaks Gretzky's record top 10 or not I think he finishes ahead of Crosby

Well he has some catching up to do as the vast majority of onlookers have Crosby ahead at this point and there is a really strong case for it.

There is no shame in that as he is a lock for a top 20 player of all time and can reach the top 10 still.

Time will tell.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Ovechkin was never described as a playmaker because he was always better at putting the rubber in the net than dishing it out to someone else. But there is no doubt his style has changed from his peak years when he was high octane all-around offensive force. His puck carrying and playmaking were no doubt better back in 2005-2010.

I don't think there's a reason to label him as one dimensional or claim he was a playmaker early on his career. But it's still more than valid to point out that peak Ovechkin was significantly better all-around offensive player than todays Ovechkin and the biggest difference is in that he doesn't set up his linemates in similar fashion. He's still more than apt at passing the puck, but his movement and puck handling are not on same level which probably hinders his ability to carry the play similarly.

Funnily enough, even though +/- is not a very useful stat, during seasons 07-11 Ovechkin led the entire NHL in that statistic. Which does speak volumes about the Caps team but also aligns pretty well with the time frame when Ovechkin carried the puck more and was in charge of the game whenever he was on the ice. In other words, he was more well rounded back then. He was also 7th in assist during that time. Without his historical goal-scoring prowess we'd probably be talking about a playmaking winger, at least during that time. Now the wording "playmaker" just seems underwhelming since it only describes a tiny portion of his game. Similarly as describing him "one dimensional" feels underwhelming even though compared to his former self it's somewhat warranted wording. But it's still heavily lacking information.

I mean, this is completely accurate and if people took this approach most would not attempt to argue it. One dimensional as a descriptor for Ovechkin is not only lazy criticism, it's an easily proven fallacy.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Is Ovechkin a top-10 player of all time?
No, probably not even that close.

Is Ovechkin a top-10 goal-scorer of all time?
Yes, obviously.

Oh he's objectively close and most consider him there already.

 

[Mike8]

Oh he's objectively close and most consider him there already.

There's nothing 'objective' about it and there is no 'most' either.

 

[GreatGonzo]

First I have no agenda only observations and opinions like most people on here.

Secondly I was responding to the narrative promoted by many here about Gretzky's goal scoring record and Ovechkin PP production this year.

Going into next year the coach of the capitals won't be relying on stats from 06-10 but rather what has been happening lately.

And the bottom line is that in a 61 game sample the 12-5 line with that amount off PP time will be hard to defend going forward.

Or are you going to argue against the facts here with something else?

He also sits second in ES goals right now, while being second on his team in points.

I mean you make such claims that it’s “hurting his team.” Care to back that? Or is that just an “observation.”

facts are, whenever Ovehckin has an “off year”, many love to forget about what he did previously and just focus on how bad he is, it’s happened time and time again with posters like you coming out and deciding that he isn’t that great of a player because of one year, where he happens to had 43 goals and 60 points.....not bad for an “off year” if I do say so.

maybe your enjoying Ovechkin struggling more than you would like to admit.

 

[Zuluss]

Well he has some catching up to do as the vast majority of onlookers have Crosby ahead at this point and there is a really strong case for it.

Yes, the media hype machine is still working. But time will take care of that.
Back in 2009, when there should have been no doubt that Ovechkin is the best player in the world by a large margin, there was a talk that Ovechkin is 1A and Crosby (not Malkin or Datsyuk) is 1B.
Today, people look back at that period of time and say without doubt that Ovechkin's 2007-2010 are the best seasons since lockout, and Crosby's 06/07 and 13/14 are not really close - not to mention his 08/09.
The same thing will happen when Crosby either declines a lot or retires. The new generation of fans will definitely scratch their heads thinking about how Crosby's career can be viewed as better than Ovechkin's and why we need to put Crosby in top10 ahead of Ovechkin. And this is not to mention the potential impact of McDavid, who is likely to become a more decorated player than Crosby, and Ovechkin will have no heir for a long time.

 

[wetcoast]

Yes, the media hype machine is still working. But time will take care of that.
Back in 2009, when there should have been no doubt that Ovechkin is the best player in the world by a large margin, there was a talk that Ovechkin is 1A and Crosby (not Malkin or Datsyuk) is 1B.
Today, people look back at that period of time and say without doubt that Ovechkin's 2007-2010 are the best seasons since lockout, and Crosby's 06/07 and 13/14 are not really close - not to mention his 08/09.
The same thing will happen when Crosby either declines a lot or retires. The new generation of fans will definitely scratch their heads thinking about how Crosby's career can be viewed as better than Ovechkin's and why we need to put Crosby in top10 ahead of Ovechkin. And this is not to mention the potential impact of McDavid, who is likely to become a more decorated player than Crosby, and Ovechkin will have no heir for a long time.

Talk about a hype machine here.

Crosby was 1b to Ovechkins 1a as he was still a teenager when he won an Art Ross and the Hart and only injuries curtailed his counting stats and not his elite level of play which has been elitely consistent ( only Mario and Wayne among forwards can match his level of consistency from start of their careers to year 14).

That level of consistency along with his playoff, international and 2 way play is what makes his career as better than Ovechkins right now.

And that is unlikely to change.

 

[wetcoast]

He also sits second in ES goals right now, while being second on his team in points.

I mean you make such claims that it’s “hurting his team.” Care to back that? Or is that just an “observation.”

facts are, whenever Ovehckin has an “off year”, many love to forget about what he did previously and just focus on how bad he is, it’s happened time and time again with posters like you coming out and deciding that he isn’t that great of a player because of one year, where he happens to had 43 goals and 60 points.....not bad for an “off year” if I do say so.

maybe your enjoying Ovechkin struggling more than you would like to admit.

I did back it up as Ovechkin has more time on the PP than any other player in the league right now and has 12 goals and 5 assists.

Also watching him play he doesn't attack the zone anywhere near the way he did in his prime and his ESGF/ESGA ratios are really meh.


When the trend continues next year there will be other excuses no doubt.

Ovechkin has had a fine career and will probably end up as a top 10 player and is close right ow but the history of the game has had so many great players plain and simple.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

There's nothing 'objective' about it and there is no 'most' either.

Peruse a podcast from media voices covering this exact topic, that should inform you. It doesn't really matter what joe blow biased fan thinks and anyone who thinks Ovechkin isn't anywhere close to the top 10 players all time is clearly that.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

I did back it up as Ovechkin has more time on the PP than any other player in the league right now and has 12 goals and 5 assists.

Also watching him play he doesn't attack the zone anywhere near the way he did in his prime and his ESGF/ESGA ratios are really meh.


When the trend continues next year there will be other excuses no doubt.

Ovechkin has had a fine career and will probably end up as a top 10 player and is close right ow but the history of the game has had so many great players plain and simple.

Ovechkin isn't hurting the powerplay, that's an absurd notion and if you watched you'd understand that unless he's pounding it in they're anemic. The problem is that their umbrella has been completely foiled and only if they can get set up, which is a big if because suddenly Backstrom and Kuznetsov can't carry the puck. The PP coach Forsythe's lone advice to help? Have Ovi and Carslon switch places sometimes, as you can suspect this has helped about as much as me typing this.

No, Ovechkin isn't remotely hurting the team on the PP, it's their inability to enter the zone, move the puck with purpose and speed (which is a team problem 5v5 for nearly 3 months now) and get any sort of movement from the PK. It's time they ditch the umbrella and get back to a basic PP setup that can reliably move the puck, use the skill that these players possess and start shooting from all angle instead of having Carlson toss horrible expected wobblers into Ovechkin's skates.

Your narrative is nonsense.

 

[Mike8]

Peruse a podcast from media voices covering this exact topic, that should inform you. It doesn't really matter what joe blow biased fan thinks and anyone who thinks Ovechkin isn't anywhere close to the top 10 players all time is clearly that.

A media podcast does not make something 'objective', nor does it make it a widespread opinion or what 'most' experts think. It's not helpful to any discussion to claim that something is objective for which there are no objective metrics, nor is it helpful to claim 'most people' when you can't prove that.

The only thing 'objective' in this discussion is that you are wrong.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

A media podcast does not make something 'objective', nor does it make it a widespread opinion or what 'most' experts think. It's not helpful to any discussion to claim that something is objective for which there are no objective metrics, nor is it helpful to claim 'most people' when you can't prove that.

The only thing 'objective' in this discussion is that you are wrong.

I'm not wrong and the single most decorated player of his generation along with being the greatest goal scorer of all time is OBJECTIVELY in the top 10, or right on the cusp of. Anything else is nonsensical bias and nostalgia fueled garbage. Rightfully ignored.

 

[Mike8]

I'm not wrong and the single most decorated player of his generation along with being the greatest goal scorer of all time is OBJECTIVELY in the top 10, or right on the cusp of. Anything else is nonsensical bias and nostalgia fueled garbage. Rightfully ignored.

Nope, this is not objectively established. This is a pretty clear-cut case of using a word incorrectly, then throwing a temper tantrum when you're informed of the definition. Treat this as an education experience, not as a reason to throw a fit.

 

[BlueMed]

How is he not a top 10 player? Do people actually think guys like Gordie Howe were better hockey players than Ovi? Ovechkin is bigger, faster, stronger, better skater, better shooter, better stickhandler, better hitter, etc. Better at every aspect of the game because the game has gotten exponentially more competitive since 2000 due to the advancement of technique, on and off-ice trainers, equipment, nutrition, population pool, etc. Prime Gordie Howe can't even skate under today's standards. People are f***ing stupid.