Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[Goose]

He’s Top 10 based upon mainstream criteria.

I disagree beating Gretzky puts him Top 4 or 5, though I get the argument.

All that said, there are quite a few players I would take ahead of Ovi if I was given a blank slate franchise and any player I wanted at the beginning of their career for their full career. He’s not Top Ten of the guys I’d choose to build a team around given my pick. Maybe not even Top 20.

 

[Video Nasty]

I don’t understand the whole “all around” agenda your going with though. It makes little sense. His first 5 seasons, he only has 2 top 10 assists seasons, and they were 10th and 6th. He had more assists for sure, but his highest assist total has been 59 in 2010, where he still finished 6th.

He has never been a “playmaker.” He was never an All Around player. He had more assists mainly due to his play on the PP. his assists totals continued to drop after 2013, but again....it’s the idea that that NEEDS to be criticized. Why? Why does it matter that he doesn’t have more assists? Where is the negative in that?

He’s always been a shooter and a goal scorer, his assists totals and playmaking overall have never made that much noise. This “all around” idea goes along with the criticism he’s been facing, as if he was once this all around elite goal scorer and playmaker, and then suddenly decided to just focus on goal scoring, but his assists totals!

One dimensional still isn’t exactly the most fair critique mainly because one dimensional isn’t anything but a negative term. When saying someone is one dimensional, you are implying that they aren’t valuable really at all....because how many “one dimensional” players actually held value to a team?

Frame it however you want, 300+ assists in a 6 season span is certainly in the realm of a playmaker. Over the last 6 seasons, only Kane and Backstrom have a higher total than in Ovechkins first 6. McDavid is the only one who has done it in 5. He would rank 11th pushing it out to the last 7 seasons played. It’s not as easy to find where he actually ranked for those seasons but I would imagine it’s similar.

Interesting article from a time he was at the height of his powers:
Alex Ovechkin: Playmaker

 

[IvanMalison]

Not sure if anyone else has brought this up, but he actually compares very favorably in adjusted point shares when lined up by season:

Alex Ovechkin Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

I was sort of surprised to see him basically beating Crosby down the line by that metric (Crosby's 13th best season being the only exception).

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Yzerman was a better complete player. Ovechkin is a killer at scoring goals

Ovechkin was better at pretty much everything and these standards for complete player people keep coming up with seem to shift like the sands of time. Ovechkin has surpassed Yzerman at this point in his career all time.

 

[Midnight Judges]

People are so disingenuous when they try to defend against the stance of Ovechkin being fairly one dimensional for the past 9 seasons. Yes, when you hit 700 goals the second quickest ever and you have folks fantasizing about him taking down Gretzky, you’re almost bullet proof...but it doesn’t mean he is anywhere close to the player he was in the first third of his career.

He was an incredible all around force in his first 5 seasons. Those 3 years where he would have swept every single major award if not for missing 6 games to injury and 4 to suspension in 2009-2010 is probably going to be the best 3 year stretch of hockey this century for awhile.

He had 313 assists in his first 6 seasons. He has 257 in his last 9 seasons. 1 assist in his last 20 games, 0 in his last 12?

People saying it doesn’t fit others narrative of him being more one dimensional because he ranks 13th among all active players? Disingenuous again. He put up 55% of his career assists in just his first 6 years alone...when it takes 9 seasons, all consecutive, to get the other 45%, it speaks for itself that for a larger majority of his career that he is pretty one dimensional.

For the entire decade of the 2010s, he ranks 40th in assists. He played the 9th most games. That’s a more sincere take than people just scoffing and saying that because he ranks 13th among active players buoyed by actually being a more complete player in his early stages proves he is overall elite.

Sorry, he’s not even close to being as exciting as he was from 2005-2006 through 2009-2010. And I don’t believe any of his defenders if they say they prefer the version we’ve gotten of him over the last 10 years.

Again, he’s 8th all time on the goal list and counting. It doesn’t mean he is immune to criticism and he needs to pass Gretzky in reality before he is realistically a top 10 player all time. Top 10 all players, doubtful. Top 10 forward, definitely think he already has a strong case.

Ovie is top 3 in points and top 7 in hits in the span you cite (2010-2011 - present). That's two irrefutable dimensions.

So again, "one-dimensional" is objectively false.

(Nevermind that he remains an excellent passer of the puck and an excellent playmaker even though that is not his primary role.)

 

[Midnight Judges]

Not sure if anyone else has brought this up, but he actually compares very favorably in adjusted point shares when lined up by season:

Alex Ovechkin Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

I was sort of surprised to see him basically beating Crosby down the line by that metric (Crosby's 13th best season being the only exception).

That shouldn't be surprising at all. Ovechkin has been the best player on the Capitals far more often than Crosby has been the best player on his team. This is especially true in the playoffs.

 

[Plural]

I don’t understand the whole “all around” agenda your going with though. It makes little sense. His first 5 seasons, he only has 2 top 10 assists seasons, and they were 10th and 6th. He had more assists for sure, but his highest assist total has been 59 in 2010, where he still finished 6th.

He has never been a “playmaker.” He was never an All Around player. He had more assists mainly due to his play on the PP. his assists totals continued to drop after 2013, but again....it’s the idea that that NEEDS to be criticized. Why? Why does it matter that he doesn’t have more assists? Where is the negative in that?

He’s always been a shooter and a goal scorer, his assists totals and playmaking overall have never made that much noise. This “all around” idea goes along with the criticism he’s been facing, as if he was once this all around elite goal scorer and playmaker, and then suddenly decided to just focus on goal scoring, but his assists totals!

One dimensional still isn’t exactly the most fair critique mainly because one dimensional isn’t anything but a negative term. When saying someone is one dimensional, you are implying that they aren’t valuable really at all....because how many “one dimensional” players actually held value to a team?

Ovechkin was never described as a playmaker because he was always better at putting the rubber in the net than dishing it out to someone else. But there is no doubt his style has changed from his peak years when he was high octane all-around offensive force. His puck carrying and playmaking were no doubt better back in 2005-2010.

I don't think there's a reason to label him as one dimensional or claim he was a playmaker early on his career. But it's still more than valid to point out that peak Ovechkin was significantly better all-around offensive player than todays Ovechkin and the biggest difference is in that he doesn't set up his linemates in similar fashion. He's still more than apt at passing the puck, but his movement and puck handling are not on same level which probably hinders his ability to carry the play similarly.

Funnily enough, even though +/- is not a very useful stat, during seasons 07-11 Ovechkin led the entire NHL in that statistic. Which does speak volumes about the Caps team but also aligns pretty well with the time frame when Ovechkin carried the puck more and was in charge of the game whenever he was on the ice. In other words, he was more well rounded back then. He was also 7th in assist during that time. Without his historical goal-scoring prowess we'd probably be talking about a playmaking winger, at least during that time. Now the wording "playmaker" just seems underwhelming since it only describes a tiny portion of his game. Similarly as describing him "one dimensional" feels underwhelming even though compared to his former self it's somewhat warranted wording. But it's still heavily lacking information.

 

[wetcoast]

Yzerman was a better complete player. Ovechkin is a killer at scoring goals

Even though Yzerman was a more complete player it's hard not to put Ovi above him as an all time great and it's been that way for a while now.

 

[wetcoast]

There's is no argument for Sakic and Yzerman over Ovie man.

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[TR][TD]Lindsays[/TD][TD]3[/TD][TD]2[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Art Ross[/TD][TD]1[/TD][TD]0[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Rockets[/TD][TD]8[/TD][TD]0[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Calder[/TD][TD]1[/TD][TD]0[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Smythes[/TD][TD]1[/TD][TD]2[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]1st All star[/TD][TD]8[/TD][TD]4[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2nd All star[/TD][TD]4[/TD][TD]0[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]PPG Leads[/TD][TD]3[/TD][TD]0[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD] GPG Leads[/TD][TD] 8[/TD][TD] 0[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]
It's not close. Sakic and Yzerman are extremely overrated if people put them in the top 10. There not top 10 even if you start in 1980.

Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Jagr, Bourque, Hasek, Roy, Lidstrom, Crosby, and Ovechkin are all above the 19's.

While I agree with your conclusions your methodology isn't a very good arguement as Ovechkin wouldn't be beating Mario or Wayne, or many other centers for all star teams ect...

 

[Khomutov]

Ovechkin was never described as a playmaker because he was always better at putting the rubber in the net than dishing it out to someone else. But there is no doubt his style has changed from his peak years when he was high octane all-around offensive force. His puck carrying and playmaking were no doubt better back in 2005-2010.

I don't think there's a reason to label him as one dimensional or claim he was a playmaker early on his career. But it's still more than valid to point out that peak Ovechkin was significantly better all-around offensive player than todays Ovechkin and the biggest difference is in that he doesn't set up his linemates in similar fashion. He's still more than apt at passing the puck, but his movement and puck handling are not on same level which probably hinders his ability to carry the play similarly.

Funnily enough, even though +/- is not a very useful stat, during seasons 07-11 Ovechkin led the entire NHL in that statistic. Which does speak volumes about the Caps team but also aligns pretty well with the time frame when Ovechkin carried the puck more and was in charge of the game whenever he was on the ice. In other words, he was more well rounded back then. He was also 7th in assist during that time. Without his historical goal-scoring prowess we'd probably be talking about a playmaking winger, at least during that time. Now the wording "playmaker" just seems underwhelming since it only describes a tiny portion of his game. Similarly as describing him "one dimensional" feels underwhelming even though compared to his former self it's somewhat warranted wording. But it's still heavily lacking information.

You can say that about every player. Obviously a player is better at his peak than in his mid thirties. It's no exception with Ovechkin.

 

[txpd]

He’s Top 10 based upon mainstream criteria.

I disagree beating Gretzky puts him Top 4 or 5, though I get the argument.

All that said, there are quite a few players I would take ahead of Ovi if I was given a blank slate franchise and any player I wanted at the beginning of their career for their full career. He’s not Top Ten of the guys I’d choose to build a team around given my pick. Maybe not even Top 20.

Where Ovechkin ranks in the end will depend entirely on how you value goals vs assists. But not in the top 20 if he breaks that record is ridiculous.

You wouldn't want to choose him to build a team around? Since entering the league and with only 2 other top 5 picks in the rebuild the Capitals have the 3rd best record, behind the Sharks and the Penguins. They are tied for 4th number of playoff games. A team with empty seats is full every night for a decade and sells merch throughout the league. It appears that building a team around him worked out pretty well.

 

[Plural]

You can say that about every player. Obviously a player is better at his peak than in his mid thirties. It's no exception with Ovechkin.

I didn't say it's an anomaly.

 

[txpd]

I don't think there's a reason to label him as one dimensional or claim he was a playmaker early on his career. But it's still more than valid to point out that peak Ovechkin was significantly better all-around offensive player than todays Ovechkin and the biggest difference is in that he doesn't set up his linemates in similar fashion. He's still more than apt at passing the puck, but his movement and puck handling are not on same level which probably hinders his ability to carry the play similarly..

I think you need to take into context the difference in the game, the defensive coverage and the goaltending from early to medium/current in his career. Ovechkin's job is to score the puck. The offense when he is on the ice is set for him to score the puck. The clearest example of this is the Caps pp. Its set up to clear out and allow Ovechkin to shoot the puck past the goaltender. They dont want and dont have any traffic for him to shoot thru. They dont want his shot hitting a teammate or the guy defending the teammate when it was headed for open net. The pp unit is positioned to pass him the puck and retrieve his shots. They dont screen, they dont deflect and they are not in a position to score his rebounds. The proof of that is in the number of shots on goal that he has and the really small number of assists he has off his shot. How can a player that puts that many shots on goal not get rebound assists? They are set up to chase his shots and retain possession.

None of the players are positioned to be able to shoot off his pass. It takes at least 2 touches for someone else to score a goal. The video below is from the last playoffs. This player is an outstanding passer/playmaker. Who would you rather shoot the puck? Tom Wilson or Ovechkin? Thats what the coaches tell him.

Keep in mind that its Hamilton and Slavin he burns here.

 

[txpd]

Also, a player of his quality is 3rd in the league in hits during the run of his career. Teeth rattling hits. You cant be one dimensional that does this?

 

[Plural]

I think you need to take into context the difference in the game, the defensive coverage and the goaltending from early to medium/current in his career. Ovechkin's job is to score the puck. The offense when he is on the ice is set for him to score the puck. The clearest example of this is the Caps pp. Its set up to clear out and allow Ovechkin to shoot the puck past the goaltender. They dont want and dont have any traffic for him to shoot thru. They dont want his shot hitting a teammate or the guy defending the teammate when it was headed for open net. The pp unit is positioned to pass him the puck and retrieve his shots. They dont screen, they dont deflect and they are not in a position to score his rebounds. The proof of that is in the number of shots on goal that he has and the really small number of assists he has off his shot. How can a player that puts that many shots on goal not get rebound assists? They are set up to chase his shots and retain possession.

None of the players are positioned to be able to shoot off his pass. It takes at least 2 touches for someone else to score a goal. The video below is from the last playoffs. This player is an outstanding passer/playmaker. Who would you rather shoot the puck? Tom Wilson or Ovechkin? Thats what the coaches tell him.

Keep in mind that its Hamilton and Slavin he burns here.

Of course his job on the ice is to score. It always has been. But years back he was way more capable of handling the puck at high speed. Peak Ovechkin was one of the better stickhandlers in the game and his possession game was off the charts. He's but a shadow of that player these days. That doesn't mean he's a bad player or a one dimensional. He's just not nearly the same all-around offensive juggernaut he used to be. If we're comparing young OV to this days OV then the word "one dimensional" can come to mind cause that's how different his style is these days. Compared to your average goal-scoring winger in the game, he's nowhere near one dimensional. He can still pass the puck and he's got the offensive instincts but he just simply doesn't have the hands to handle the puck and while he's still explosive for his age he's nowhere near the same electrifying skater he used to be.

Still one of the better players in the game even as is. Not many 34-year old goal-scorers can say the same.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Frame it however you want, 300+ assists in a 6 season span is certainly in the realm of a playmaker. Over the last 6 seasons, only Kane and Backstrom have a higher total than in Ovechkins first 6. McDavid is the only one who has done it in 5. He would rank 11th pushing it out to the last 7 seasons played. It’s not as easy to find where he actually ranked for those seasons but I would imagine it’s similar.

Interesting article from a time he was at the height of his powers:
Alex Ovechkin: Playmaker

And that’s once again all within context and so far into a subjective line of reasoning. If you want to call him a “playmaker” the first six years of his career and use an article and his totals as evidence, that’s fine. No one can say you’re wrong or right, only that’s how you see it.

he is 6th in assists from 2006-11, with 3 top 10 finishes. All the players in front of him have either lead the league in assists, or have come close. So it comes to at what level would you consider Ovechkin a “playmaker” and why is his lack of later on in his career so significant?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Ovechkin was never described as a playmaker because he was always better at putting the rubber in the net than dishing it out to someone else. But there is no doubt his style has changed from his peak years when he was high octane all-around offensive force. His puck carrying and playmaking were no doubt better back in 2005-2010.

I don't think there's a reason to label him as one dimensional or claim he was a playmaker early on his career. But it's still more than valid to point out that peak Ovechkin was significantly better all-around offensive player than todays Ovechkin and the biggest difference is in that he doesn't set up his linemates in similar fashion. He's still more than apt at passing the puck, but his movement and puck handling are not on same level which probably hinders his ability to carry the play similarly.

Funnily enough, even though +/- is not a very useful stat, during seasons 07-11 Ovechkin led the entire NHL in that statistic. Which does speak volumes about the Caps team but also aligns pretty well with the time frame when Ovechkin carried the puck more and was in charge of the game whenever he was on the ice. In other words, he was more well rounded back then. He was also 7th in assist during that time. Without his historical goal-scoring prowess we'd probably be talking about a playmaking winger, at least during that time. Now the wording "playmaker" just seems underwhelming since it only describes a tiny portion of his game. Similarly as describing him "one dimensional" feels underwhelming even though compared to his former self it's somewhat warranted wording. But it's still heavily lacking information.

One of the biggest differences I’ve seen between peak Ovechkin and Ovechkin of the past few years is his job on the PP. he had significantly less assists on the PP, most likely setting up guys like Green and Backstrom. He had 313 assists his first 6 years, 134 were on the PP. his last 6 years, he’s had 189 assists, 62 on the PP.

He definitely started focusing on shooting more and passing less, although he actually shot more his first 6 years. But I feel his role on the PP changed significantly and did affect his totals. Even his overall assists at ES dropped as well, which is like you said, in line with the their overall system with giving Ovechkin the puck.

I mean it could be noted that the Caps don’t have a ton of scoring outside of Ovechkin. in the early years, you had Semin, Backstrom, and even Green netting 30+ goals with others like Knuble and Laich netting close to 30 for a few years. But the Caps have a lot better scoring depth wise.

 

[Lacoste]

He’s Top 10 based upon mainstream criteria.

I disagree beating Gretzky puts him Top 4 or 5, though I get the argument.

All that said, there are quite a few players I would take ahead of Ovi if I was given a blank slate franchise and any player I wanted at the beginning of their career for their full career. He’s not Top Ten of the guys I’d choose to build a team around given my pick. Maybe not even Top 20.

So good u'r not coach. Top 20? He is not even top 50. Everyone can score 700+ goals.

 

[Goose]

So good u'r not coach. Top 20? He is not even top 50. Everyone can score 700+ goals.

You can do it!

 

[Ted Hoffman]

In what universe is Ovechkin winning any awards and trophies where for a span of 21 consecutive seasons, the only players who won an Art Ross were Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr? I’d love to see his very bare trophy case with players like that to contend with.

Points like this are disingenuous because they assume we can take Player A and drop them into Era B and nothing changes so that all the resulting conclusions are "obvious" when they're really not.

Hell, drop Gretzky and Lemieux early in their careers into 2008 and ask whether they have the same impact on the game and put up the same gaudy scoring totals. They'd still be good, they'd still be really good, but Gretzky isn't going 92-120-212 or 52-163-215 and Lemieux isn't going 85-114-199 or even 69-91-160 in 60 games. It's a different era, a lot of things have changed. Things they got to do in the 80s wouldn't happen today. Quit trying to compare players from eras like it's all just drop-and-drag and numbers drive the comparions; it's how you end up making dumb conclusions like Keith Tkachuk was a better goal-scorer than Rick Middleton.

So congrats to Ovechkin for playing in an era with weak goal scoring contemporaries and supposedly bigger faster stronger players that I see no real evidence of.

Someone explain to me how

• having "weak goal scoring contemporaries" somehow magically diminishes Ovechkin getting to 700 goals (and still counting), and
• not having "bigger faster stronger players that I see no real evidence of" [ignoring the pretty obvious fact that players today are in fact bigger, faster and stronger] somehow takes away from the goal-scoring skill Ovechkin has displayed throughout his career

 

[Video Nasty]

Points like this are disingenuous because they assume we can take Player A and drop them into Era B and nothing changes so that all the resulting conclusions are "obvious" when they're really not.

Hell, drop Gretzky and Lemieux early in their careers into 2008 and ask whether they have the same impact on the game and put up the same gaudy scoring totals. They'd still be good, they'd still be really good, but Gretzky isn't going 92-120-212 or 52-163-215 and Lemieux isn't going 85-114-199 or even 69-91-160 in 60 games. It's a different era, a lot of things have changed. Things they got to do in the 80s wouldn't happen today. Quit trying to compare players from eras like it's all just drop-and-drag and numbers drive the comparions; it's how you end up making dumb conclusions like Keith Tkachuk was a better goal-scorer than Rick Middleton.


Someone explain to me how

• having "weak goal scoring contemporaries" somehow magically diminishes Ovechkin getting to 700 goals (and still counting), and
• not having "bigger faster stronger players that I see no real evidence of" [ignoring the pretty obvious fact that players today are in fact bigger, faster and stronger] somehow takes away from the goal-scoring skill Ovechkin has displayed throughout his career

Do you want a like or something for twisting my words? Pretty clear that I was commenting on the comparison of Ovechkin having 8 Rockets vs Sakic/Yzerman having 0, nothing to do with Ovechkin scoring 700+ so don’t fret about reading into veiled jabs at your hero.

Yes, I keep being told by the media and current day that everything, absolutely everything is so advanced and the best it has ever been because it is happening right now and that the human body has undergone thousands of years of evolution in just the last 20-30 years because of the average player’s focus on nutrition improving.

The average player’s height and weight is almost exactly the same as 30 years ago. In the last hundred years of hockey, average player height has gone up a few inches and 25-30 pounds. Since Gretzky’s first season, the average player height has gone up a whopping 1 inch and 10 pounds compared to present day.

Wow. Literally bigger I suppose but we’re not talking about half a foot taller and 50 pounds heavier.

NHL Player Size From 1917-18 to 2014-15: A Brief Look

We live such short lives and I understand that things from 20+ years ago seem ancient to many, but it’s not a lot of time at all. Things have changed certainly, but we’re not comparing players 500 years apart.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Do you want a like or something for twisting my words? Pretty clear that I was commenting on the comparison of Ovechkin having 8 Rockets vs Sakic/Yzerman having 0, nothing to do with Ovechkin scoring 700+ so don’t fret about reading into veiled jabs at your hero.

Not my hero, but please - tell me what else I believe, even though we both know you have no idea what I believe.

 

[The Panther]

Is Ovechkin a top-10 player of all time?
No, probably not even that close.

Is Ovechkin a top-10 goal-scorer of all time?
Yes, obviously.

 

[Hatfield]

Is Ovechkin a top-10 player of all time?
No, probably not even that close.

Is Ovechkin a top-10 goal-scorer of all time?
Yes, obviously.

Top 3 goal scorer. Top 15 player.

He will move up both lists as he gets closer to 894.

We tend to judge current players by how they’ve performed lately. But looking back, players’ legacies are judged by peak, career totals, trophies and championships. Records are a cherry on top. Ovechkin checks all of those boxes AND could have a major career record to go along with all his other accomplishments.

 

[Sentinel]

He’s Top 10 based upon mainstream criteria.

I disagree beating Gretzky puts him Top 4 or 5, though I get the argument.

All that said, there are quite a few players I would take ahead of Ovi if I was given a blank slate franchise and any player I wanted at the beginning of their career for their full career. He’s not Top Ten of the guys I’d choose to build a team around given my pick. Maybe not even Top 20.

Then you're a terrible businessman. Ovy put more butts in the seats than any player this century.