Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[JasonRoseEh]

Mike Bossy is a top 10 all time player.

He unequivocally is nowhere near a top 10 player all time.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

I wasn't comparing the 2 teams it was that the metric of GA was a really poor one at best and disingenuous at worst.

The OP was trying to make the point that the Capitals somehow weren't a good team when in fact they finished higher in the standings in 8 of the 10 years the OP had stated and often by quite a decent margin.

I read the post history, but you definitely compared them. Sure the Caps were a good regular season team but with MASSIVE flaws that come playoff time were almost impossible for one generational player to overcome, this was summarized in their GA during those years. They lacked respectable goaltending, didn't have one shutdown defenseman for years, didn't have a 2nd line C to match any good teams and were consistently outscored in the bottom 6, unless Ovechkin was carrying the load those Capitals teams had no chance.

The myth that Ovechkin choked is pretty easily disproven, like who else stepped up for those teams over the years? Rarely anyone at all and no one consistently most definitely. History has proven that one man, no matter how great from Lemieux on, simply cannot win, Ovechkin only added to that rule despite some pretty herculean efforts.

 

[bobbyking]

it's hard to put ovi as a top 10 all time including goalies and d . his peak was the best since the lock out but his assist totals are so garbage since then that it's hard to put him higher then crosby borque lidstrom hasek jagr most don't even put jagr top 10 so how the hell is ovi top 10 with his 30 assists a year . then there's sawchuk Roy harvey maybe...Bobby hull as well. too one dimensional for me hes nowhere near as good as his peak.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

to me he isnt even close.......

Thats because the thread says hockey player and AO is a scoring phenom but doesnt do much else very well. He has gotten better at the game overall and won a cup so there is points for that but to me its still a no....

as for scoring....Ive never seen one better and Ive seen most of the greats going back to the 60s........

Ya only the the greatest power forward of all time, only hitting everything in sight, only 11th in assists amongst active players since entering the league. Where do you people come up with this nonsense?

 

[GreatGonzo]

it's hard to put ovi as a top 10 all time including goalies and d . his peak was the best since the lock out but his assist totals are so garbage since then that it's hard to put him higher then crosby borque lidstrom hasek jagr most don't even put jagr top 10 so how the hell is ovi top 10 with his 30 assists a year . then there's sawchuk Roy Robinson maybe...Bobby hull as well. too one dimensional for me hes nowhere near as good as his peak.

I guess a better question is why is their a criteria or set standard for assists? Especially when his goal scoring is arguably more valuable and impactful than anyone in the top 10. He has better assists totals than Richard, Hull, and Morenz. All were goal scorers for the most part.

I mean Ovechkin isn’t a playmaker, he’s a goal scorer and arguably the best all time. Why are we holding it against the beat goal scorer of all time that he lacks a certain number of assists totals?

 

[edog37]

Biggest reputation award in modern Smythe history. My god, the man didn't even score a goal in the Caps series and totaled 2 points as secondaries.

just another day reading dumb crap on HF boards

 

[GreatGonzo]

just another day reading dumb crap on HF boards

It was almost as dumb as your “Backstrom is just as good as Trottier” comment

just another day indeed....

 

[daver]

Let's just agree that those teams were talented, but, to me, it's not enough to be great. Great teams have talent, good working ethic and good coaching.

So the Caps, like OV had the talent, what about work ethic? Why did it take OV so long to noticeably play a strong 2-way game that lead to their only Cup?

 

[Acallabeth]

So the Caps, like OV had the talent, what about work ethic? Why did it take OV so long to noticeably play a strong 2-way game that lead to their only Cup?

Just because Ovechkin played poor defense doesn't mean he lacked effort. I guess you believe Crosby lacks work ethic not to get injured more often lol.

 

[Midnight Judges]

So the Caps, like OV had the talent, what about work ethic? Why did it take OV so long to noticeably play a strong 2-way game that lead to their only Cup?

This is false for two blatantly obvious reasons:

1) Ovie’s defensive game has never been a big problem. Ovechkin has been on the ice for fewer even strength goals against per 60 than Crosby over the past 10 seasons.

2) it’s not ovie’s defense that was the big change to the team (and it’s laughably stupid that anyone would think the entire team revolves around one insignificant aspect of one player). The difference in the team was coaching, having a legitimate blue line whereas they did not for his first 10 seasons, and secondary scoring.

 

[wetcoast]

I guess a better question is why is their a criteria or set standard for assists? Especially when his goal scoring is arguably more valuable and impactful than anyone in the top 10. He has better assists totals than Richard, Hull, and Morenz. All were goal scorers for the most part.

I mean Ovechkin isn’t a playmaker, he’s a goal scorer and arguably the best all time. Why are we holding it against the beat goal scorer of all time that he lacks a certain number of assists totals?

No one is "holding it against Ovechkin" but everyone needs the same scrutiny.

Yes Ovechkin is the best or at worst in the mix for best goal scorer of all time but there are many other measurements of greatness and in some of these other measurements there are simply better players than him.

At the end of the day his resume is still a work in progress and he is arguably a lock for top 15ish in history and is a lock for top 10 forward of all time.

 

[wetcoast]

This is false for two blatantly obvious reasons:

1) Ovie’s defensive game has never been a big problem. Ovechkin has been on the ice for fewer even strength goals against per 60 than Crosby over the past 10 seasons.

2) it’s not ovie’s defense that was the big change to the team (and it’s laughably stupid that anyone would think the entire team revolves around one insignificant aspect of one player). The difference in the team was coaching, having a legitimate blue line whereas they did not for his first 10 seasons, and secondary scoring.

You really need to stop with this false narrative about Crosby and Ovechkin defensively as it runs and taints other arguments or thoughts presented.

Crosby has been and will always be considered the better 200 foot player between the 2 FULL STOP.

 

[Beau Knows]

1) Ovie’s defensive game has never been a big problem. Ovechkin has been on the ice for fewer even strength goals against per 60 than Crosby over the past 10 seasons.

So if Ovechkin is better at defense because he's on the ice for less goals against, doesn't than mean that Crosby is better at offense since he's then clearly been on the ice for more goals for?

Ovechkin is +80 in the regular season and +11 in the playoffs.
Crosby is +177 and +18.

So if Crosby has been on the ice for more against, that clearly means his team is also scoring quite a bit more when he's on the ice too right?

 

[Midnight Judges]

So if Ovechkin is better at defense because he's on the ice for less goals against, doesn't than mean that Crosby is better at offense since he's then clearly been on the ice for more goals for?

Ovechkin is +80 in the regular season and +11 in the playoffs.
Crosby is +177 and +18.

So if Crosby has been on the ice for more against, that clearly means his team is also scoring quite a bit more when he's on the ice too right?

No. It doesn't, because there is this thing called the "powerplay." You may have heard of it.

In his career, Ovechkin has been on the ice for 1821 total goals for. Crosby has been on the ice for 1616 total goals for.

Cite:

Alex Ovechkin Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Sidney Crosby Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Anyway, I wasn't saying there is always a perfect correlation between TGA and defense, just pointing out that Ovie's defensive results aren't some huge problem, and the entire team and their playoff success doesn't revolve around Ovechkin's defense. To assert otherwise is wildly stupid.

Neither Crosby or Ovechkin are deployed for defense. Those guys are put on the ice to score and contribute to offense. And they've done it better than anyone in modern times. Defense is an insignificant factor relative to their primary roles.

 

[Midnight Judges]

You really need to stop with this false narrative about Crosby and Ovechkin defensively as it runs and taints other arguments or thoughts presented.

Crosby has been and will always be considered the better 200 foot player between the 2 FULL STOP.

You can have whatever opinion you want. I'm sure the Canadian media will help you convince yourself that it's correct.

.....if only you could find a way to eliminate all this pesky data.

 

[Beau Knows]

Anyway, I wasn't saying there is always a perfect correlation between TGA and defense, just pointing out that Ovie's defensive results aren't some huge problem, and the entire team and their playoff success doesn't revolve around Ovechkin's defense. To assert otherwise is wildly stupid.

So we agree that +/- isn't all that meaningful?

Then citing Ovechkin's GA numbers doesn't really do much to say he's not a poor defensive player (which he's not anymore, he's decent enough in that area now).

 

[GreatGonzo]

No one is "holding it against Ovechkin" but everyone needs the same scrutiny.

Yes Ovechkin is the best or at worst in the mix for best goal scorer of all time but there are many other measurements of greatness and in some of these other measurements there are simply better players than him.

At the end of the day his resume is still a work in progress and he is arguably a lock for top 15ish in history and is a lock for top 10 forward of all time.

But again what measurements is he not meeting and what is the standard or bar that we are basing it off of? Outside of the 4 big, it’s pretty much subjective as to who is/isn’t in the top 10.....but all I keep seeing is Ovechkins low assists totals being brought up and nothing else.

Your right it is hard to make a judgement call at this point. He’s still not done.

 

[wetcoast]

You can have whatever opinion you want. I'm sure the Canadian media will help you convince yourself that it's correct.

.....if only you could find a way to eliminate all this pesky data.

What data are you talking about exactly, your discredited thread that you always quote?

The "data" when you actually look at everything and not just some small portion of data is quite clear Crosby had had more impact on the ice than Ovechkin has and this extends to his 200 foot game as well.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

I'm a Pens fan but I have to admit that OV has a legit chance of going down as the best goal scorer in history. He may not offer much else but in his prime he was a 50 assist threat and a dominant physical presence.

If OV retired today I would put OV in the top 10. But Sid will be considered the superior player and has accomplished more.

 

[iamjs]

If he does break Gretzky's record Crosby stans will still find a way to discredit him.

You think so? I know a bunch of Pens fans who are rooting for him to break 894, myself included.

Unless there's a prodigy that nobody knows about, this is the last legit attempt that we will see at Gretz's record for at least 20-30 years.

 

[wetcoast]

But again what measurements is he not meeting and what is the standard or bar that we are basing it off of? Outside of the 4 big, it’s pretty much subjective as to who is/isn’t in the top 10.....but all I keep seeing is Ovechkins low assists totals being brought up and nothing else.

Your right it is hard to make a judgement call at this point. He’s still not done.

Well when I have some time I will do some comparisons between Ovechkin and some other guys that are ranked 5th to 25thish in the HOH top 100 list.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

just another day reading dumb crap on HF boards

Try reading the nonsense you've spewed out over the last 10 or so pages.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

So the Caps, like OV had the talent, what about work ethic? Why did it take OV so long to noticeably play a strong 2-way game that lead to their only Cup?

Ovechkin didn't change his play much at all other than getting slower and not going after the bigger hits, but that too had more to do with being a stride slower and age. His assists have dried up due to a lack of goal scoring on his line and the PP slowing down considerably. The difference in him winning and not winning was getting goaltending and having a secondary scorer to pick up the slack, something ALL Cup winning teams have. Prior to this he was missing either or, or both. This year they need to put up as it's easy to say last years loss was due to injury at key spots but another first round exit this year would be catastrophic for the Capitals

 

[JasonRoseEh]

I'm a Pens fan but I have to admit that OV has a legit chance of going down as the best goal scorer in history. He may not offer much else but in his prime he was a 50 assist threat and a dominant physical presence.

If OV retired today I would put OV in the top 10. But Sid will be considered the superior player and has accomplished more.

Again, what? Like the way you guys talk about Ovechkin you think he just stands in one spot and does nothing else. You clearly aren't watching him if this is your take. This calendar year alone he's saved multiple empty net chances against with the goalies pulled, broken up plays when necessary, made stellar passes in losing efforts and really has been the only one consistently effective as their powerplay fizzles at historically low levels during his tenure. All the while he's still putting great chances on net, playing the body consistently well and driving his line against top pairing matchups every night. The Capitals have been awful for 2 months but this isn't an Ovechkin problem and it wasn't an Ovechkin problem in years passed when guys like Marcus Johannsen couldn't put goals into yawning nets fed to him by #8 resulting in crippling playoff losses.

This one trick player stuff is such a lazy and garbage narrative.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

Again, what? Like the way you guys talk about Ovechkin you think he just stands in one spot and does nothing else. You clearly aren't watching him if this is your take. This calendar year alone he's saved multiple empty net chances against with the goalies pulled, broken up plays when necessary, made stellar passes in losing efforts and really has been the only one consistently effective as their powerplay fizzles at historically low levels during his tenure. All the while he's still putting great chances on net, playing the body consistently well and driving his line against top pairing matchups every night. The Capitals have been awful for 2 months but this isn't an Ovechkin problem and it wasn't an Ovechkin problem in years passed when guys like Marcus Johannsen couldn't put goals into yawning nets fed to him by #8 resulting in crippling playoff losses.

This one trick player stuff is such a lazy and garbage narrative.

He has 17 assists in a league that awards them like candy.
He might literally be the most one dimensional player in the league, it just so happens he's also the best shooter.