Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[daver]

Nope, great players are great no matter if their team wins championships. Without Malkin, Crosby wouldn't probably get SC, but he would be great anyway.

Crosby has been a winner at every single level he's played. OV needed to mature his game before his team would follow his lead.

 

[Hatfield]

The great ones win championships. Many people pointed to OV playing a strong 2-way game when they won the Cup.

You’re quoting Lemieux, but would he ever have won Cups without Jagr, Francis, and countless other great players on those two teams? No. He could have gone on scoring 150+ points for the rest of his career, being undeniably great. So he’s wrong.

 

[bobholly39]

We're comparing 2 high profile players in Lemieux and Messier (APPLES)- both of which have had the benefit playing on very good teams for most of their careers. These are the star players/leaders of their respective teams. They can and should be measured on how their contributions impact what's most important - winning titles.

Messier 6 cups, Lemieux 2. So Messier >> Lemieux.

Kurri 5 cups, Jagr 2. So Kurri >> Jagr.

Apples to apples right?

I think saying Ovi and Crosby have had comparable team strengths during their career is a pretty fair statement. Ovechkin has in general played on some pretty strong teams, full of talent. They simply underperofmred in the playoffs. No that doesn't mean it's necessarily Ovi's individual fault.

In contrast - Crosby's teams have done much better in the post-season. Having Malkin alongside Crosby is obviously a huge plus - but overall teams it's still close.

Messier >> Lemieux for team strengths in career. Kurri over Jagr too. It's not the same.

You’re quoting Lemieux, but would he ever have won Cups without Jagr, Francis, and countless other great players on those two teams? No. He could have gone on scoring 150+ points for the rest of his career, being undeniably great. So he’s wrong.

I think peak Lemieux, Gretzky and Orr were good enough to win a cup by themselves.

Obviously - it's not "literally" by themselves, you need some semblance of a decent team. But you put those 3 guys at their peak on any random team - and give them a good 3-5 years playing at that level (peak) - they're such a huge differentiator that on almost any team it's enough to tip the scales in the favor of winning a cup, at least once.

Gretzky above the other 2 - he was absolute dynamite in the playoffs when at his peak in his earlier years.

 

[daver]

You’re quoting Lemieux, but would he ever have won Cups without Jagr, Francis, and countless other great players on those two teams? No. He could have gone on scoring 150+ points for the rest of his career, being undeniably great. So he’s wrong.

Many people were saying they saw OV playing a different way than he had earlier in his career. When you see your leader doing what it takes to win, it rubs off on you.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I think peak Lemieux, Gretzky and Orr were good enough to win a cup by themselves.

That is so obviously and demonstrably false. No player has ever been remotely that valuable.

Peak Lemieux couldn't even get his team into the playoffs in 1988 back when 16 out of 21 teams made it in. How on earth does this example not utterly refute what you just said?

None of those guys won anything without multiple other hall of famers on their teams, and none of them won a cup without another all-time great. Lemieux had 5-6 other hall of famers including Jagr. Gretzky had 5-6 other hall of famers including Messier. Orr had 3 other hall of famers including Esposito, and then the Bruins actually improved after Orr left. These aren't coincidences dude.

Hockey is just so much more of a team sport than that.

You asked me something along these lines recently. It was a good question. I didn't have time to answer. I think this difference in opinion pretty much entirely explains the difference in how I rank Ovechkin vs how you do.

 

[bobholly39]

That is so obviously and demonstrably false. No player has ever been remotely that valuable.

Peak Lemieux couldn't even get his team into the playoffs in 1988 back when 16 out of 21 teams made it in. How on earth does this example not utterly refute what you just said?

None of those guys won anything without multiple other hall of famers on their teams, and none of them won a cup without another all-time great. Lemieux had 5-6 other hall of famers including Jagr. Gretzky had 5-6 other hall of famers including Messier. Orr had 3 other hall of famers including Esposito, and then the Bruins actually improved after Orr left. These aren't coincidences dude.

Hockey is just so much more of a team sport than that.

You asked me something along these lines recently. It was a good question. I didn't have time to answer. I think this difference in opinion pretty much entirely explains the difference in how I rank Ovechkin vs how you do.

When I say those 3 players were good enough to win a cup on their own on any teams - I guess in my mind there's a few obvious ideas that go with it, that maybe I should point out.

Put peak Gretzky/Orr/Lemieux on any team (and not a purposefully sabotaged horrible team with horrible management who will purposefully make dumb moves) - even a bad team. Give them a 3-5 year run at their peak on that team, while healthy - and i'm certain they each win a cup (Gretzky most of all). They don't win the cup every year - but at least once, definitely.

You mention Lemieux in 1988. That's around when he started peaking. In 1989 he got some pretty crappy linemates to produce ridiculous numbers thanks to playing with him. Was over a goal per game in his first playoff run, made it 2 rounds i think...and eventually the team around him improved, and he carried those teams in 91 and 92 to the cup, with ridiculous performances. Gretzky in Edmonton, similar enough.

To come back to your Ovi example. Ovi didn't win a cup on Washington in the early 2010s on some mostly strong teams. Replace Ovechkin by peak Gretzky, Lemieux or Orr - i'm 100% certain they win at last 1 cup. They're enough of a differentiator

This isn't really relevant to the topic though. It's not a knock on Ovechkin - those 3 players are the only one whose peak was truly at that high enough level imo. I wouldn't say the same of Crosby or any other player either

 

[Midnight Judges]

To come back to your Ovi example. Ovi didn't win a cup on Washington in the early 2010s on some mostly strong teams. Replace Ovechkin by peak Gretzky, Lemieux or Orr - i'm 100% certain they win at last 1 cup. They're enough of a differentiator

I'm 100% certain you are wrong.

There is zero evidence to support your opinion. In roughly 20 peak seasons combined between those three guys, none of them ever achieved what you assert they could, even though the NHL had fewer teams and was weaker back then. It simply doesn't stand to reason.

Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr never won a cup without a far stronger team around them (massive understatement) than what Ovie had in the 2007-2010 Capitals. Gretzky's supporting cast was so good they won one without him. Those Capitals teams had zero other hall of famers on them (or maybe 1 fringe guy if you count Backstrom), bad coaching, terrible blue liners, and bad goaltending. Offense was never the problem.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Crosby has been a winner at every single level he's played. OV needed to mature his game before his team would follow his lead.

“Follow his lead.” Ok Daver.....sweet agenda.

I guess they followed Crosby’s lead in the ‘09 finals where he was a no show, but Malkin carried the load. Same with his performance in 2016, where he was a liability for the most part and had trouble producing. Seems like it’s easier to win when you have other players around you that can play at that level.

Many people were saying they saw OV playing a different way than he had earlier in his career. When you see your leader doing what it takes to win, it rubs off on you.

Cups are won by talent, not leadership. It’s such an old and flawed logic and it’s getting ridiculous. Leadership never got the cup raised.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Great post and the big picture here is that some are promoting goals as worth more than points and definitely more important than assists which is really strange and reveals a great amount of bias.

As for Ovechkin beating the goals record, he is 195 goals away from that milestone and this season he is showing a huge decline as an overall player even if he is still elite at scoring goals.

Does anyone see that decline decreasing going forward?

Unlikely and it might turn into a spectacle (and not in a good way) as Ovi reaches for the record but blemishes the memory of his career.

For those focused on goals it probably won't matter but those focused on the historical record it sure will.

You have to remember, this has been talked about before with Ovechkin, and he always bounced back. To many, he was “on the decline” since he was 26. His last two seasons were stellar, but this one he has been struggling. We can only know by the end of this season and truly have an accurate assessments. He is a goal scorer, and goal
Scorers usually score in bulks and tend to be streaky.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Hey look, the myth that OV played on a good team is still out there lol. Anyone check the GA of those early caps teams?

08: 17th
09: 20th
10: 17th
11: 4th
12: 19th
13: 16th
14: 22nd
15: 6th
16: 2nd
17: 1st

From 08-14, with the exception of 1 random fluke season, caps were always in the bottom half of GA. Those teams had no 2C, garbage D, garbage goaltending (until Holtby showed up at the end of 11/12), 2 idiots as coaches (Oates and Hunter, neither of whom has gotten an NHL HC job since). Not sure how anyone still thinks those were good teams. They had 2-3 great forwards, that doesn't make a great team.

 

[wetcoast]

Hey look, the myth that OV played on a good team is still out there lol. Anyone check the GA of those early caps teams?

08: 17th
09: 20th
10: 17th
11: 4th
12: 19th
13: 16th
14: 22nd
15: 6th
16: 2nd
17: 1st

From 08-14, with the exception of 1 random fluke season, caps were always in the bottom half of GA. Those teams had no 2C, garbage D, garbage goaltending (until Holtby showed up at the end of 11/12), 2 idiots as coaches (Oates and Hunter, neither of whom has gotten an NHL HC job since). Not sure how anyone still thinks those were good teams. They had 2-3 great forwards, that doesn't make a great team.

Ya the 80s Oilers were also a horrible team when looking at GA.

What a misleading way to look at things.

Too bad the standings aren't available eh?

 

[Beau Knows]

Same with his performance in 2016, where he was a liability for the most part

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Ya the 80s Oilers were also a horrible team when looking at GA.

What a misleading way to look at things.

Too bad the standings aren't available eh?

Oilers GA
82: 7th
83: 11th
84: 10th
85: 8th
86: 13th
87: 10th
88: 8th

The 08-14 caps (7 seasons) were in the top half of GA 1/7. The 82-88 Oilers (also 7 seasons) were in the top half of GA 5/7. Also, maybe you missed the Oilers having a guy called Gretzky (not to mention 5 other HOFers all in their primes) and scoring 400+ goals a season and having +100 goal differentials every year.

Maybe use some common sense before trying to be a smartass.

 

[GreatGonzo]

And this disproves my statements that it was a reputation award? Only Pen fans can be so blind to the facts. Yes, he won the smythe while being below average offensively and mediocre defensively. Congrats.

 

[Trinstin]

I don't know if we even need to rank Ovechkin at this point. He has a chance to pass Gretzky in goal scoring. Ranking him is kind of silly, the man is a living and still playing legend.

 

[wetcoast]

Oilers GA
82: 7th
83: 11th
84: 10th
85: 8th
86: 13th
87: 10th
88: 8th

The 08-14 caps (7 seasons) were in the top half of GA 1/7. The 82-88 Oilers (also 7 seasons) were in the top half of GA 5/7. Also, maybe you missed the Oilers having a guy called Gretzky (not to mention 5 other HOFers all in their primes) and scoring 400+ goals a season and having +100 goal differentials every year.

Maybe use some common sense before trying to be a smartass.

Maybe you need some help here as it's clear from your post that using GA doesn't mean squat.

Heck you had to provide alot of context there thus kind of proving the point.

 

[Beau Knows]

And this disproves my statements that it was a reputation award? Only Pen fans can be so blind to the facts. Yes, he won the smythe while being below average offensively and mediocre defensively. Congrats.

Only Penguins fans, and also the actual voters?

Okay.

 

[habdynasty]

Everyone will have their own opinion on a top 10 list, I am just looking at the all time points leaders , OV is ranked 37th overall right now , he needs 321 points to tie Phil Esposito for 10th all time scorer . OV needs 1606 more Points to tie Gretzky.

1.	Wayne Gretzky*	1979-99	2857
2.	Jaromir Jagr	1990-18	1921
3.	Mark Messier*	1979-04	1887
4.	Gordie Howe*	1946-80	1850
5.	Ron Francis*	1981-04	1798
6.	Marcel Dionne*	1971-89	1771
7.	Steve Yzerman*	1983-06	1755
8.	Mario Lemieux*	1984-06	1723
9.	Joe Sakic*	1988-09	1641
10.	Phil Esposito*	1963-81	1590

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

37 A Ovechkin 2000-05 1269

 

[Hatfield]

Many people were saying they saw OV playing a different way than he had earlier in his career. When you see your leader doing what it takes to win, it rubs off on you.

Nah. His game did not just magically change during that two month span. Ovechkin has produced and been an effective player almost every postseason but maybe one, by my count. In 2018 all of the stars aligned and he finally got the run support he’d been missing in previous years.

 

[RangerBlues]

Mike Bossy is a top 10 all time player.

 

[Hatfield]

Hey look, the myth that OV played on a good team is still out there lol. Anyone check the GA of those early caps teams?

08: 17th
09: 20th
10: 17th
11: 4th
12: 19th
13: 16th
14: 22nd
15: 6th
16: 2nd
17: 1st

From 08-14, with the exception of 1 random fluke season, caps were always in the bottom half of GA. Those teams had no 2C, garbage D, garbage goaltending (until Holtby showed up at the end of 11/12), 2 idiots as coaches (Oates and Hunter, neither of whom has gotten an NHL HC job since). Not sure how anyone still thinks those were good teams. They had 2-3 great forwards, that doesn't make a great team.

Gotta push back on Hunter being an “idiot”. He did what he had to do at that point in time, took the team as far as they’d been since 98, then stepped away by his own volition. He could be coaching in the NHL today if he wanted to.

And actually, despite all his other failings, Oates was probably the best thing that could have happened to Ovechkin’s career at that point in time...

 

[GreatGonzo]

Only Penguins fans, and also the actual voters?

Okay.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt

 

[wetcoast]

That is so obviously and demonstrably false. No player has ever been remotely that valuable.

Peak Lemieux couldn't even get his team into the playoffs in 1988 back when 16 out of 21 teams made it in. How on earth does this example not utterly refute what you just said?

None of those guys won anything without multiple other hall of famers on their teams, and none of them won a cup without another all-time great. Lemieux had 5-6 other hall of famers including Jagr. Gretzky had 5-6 other hall of famers including Messier. Orr had 3 other hall of famers including Esposito, and then the Bruins actually improved after Orr left. These aren't coincidences dude.

Hockey is just so much more of a team sport than that.

You asked me something along these lines recently. It was a good question. I didn't have time to answer. I think this difference in opinion pretty much entirely explains the difference in how I rank Ovechkin vs how you do.

I think hell must have froze over as I agree with this.

That being said I was never in the Ovechkin needs to win a SC camp, his resume in the playoffs before the capitals won the SC was very good, just not as great as some other contemporary players of his.

 

[wetcoast]

I will put in bold the actual place in the actual standings to dispute your claim, which is really easy actually.

Hey look, the myth that OV played on a good team is still out there lol. Anyone check the GA of those early caps teams?

08: 17th 12th
09: 20th 4th
10: 17th 1st by 8 points
11: 4th 2nd
12: 19th 16th
13: 16th 9th
14: 22nd 17th
15: 6th 9th
16: 2nd 1st by 11 points
17: 1st 1st by 7 points

From 08-14, with the exception of 1 random fluke season, caps were always in the bottom half of GA. Those teams had no 2C, garbage D, garbage goaltending (until Holtby showed up at the end of 11/12), 2 idiots as coaches (Oates and Hunter, neither of whom has gotten an NHL HC job since). Not sure how anyone still thinks those were good teams. They had 2-3 great forwards, that doesn't make a great team.

I guess teams that win the Presidents' cup aren't good teams then in your books?

So exactly in one single year 14-15, the Capitals were actually worse than what you are suggesting and in 17 they were what you suggest.

In the other 8 years they were actually much better than you were suggesting.

I'm not sure if your efforts were simply misguided or a deliberate distortion of the facts.

Either way the record has been set straight here.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Those Caps teams were very good teams. But it’s one thing to be a regular season beast and a playoff one. There is a reason why only 2 presidents trophy winners have won the cup since ‘06, while the last team a Presidents trophy winner made it to the finals was 2011.

No one can say Ovechkin hasn’t had great teams, only lack of players able to elevate themselves in the playoffs. Crosby has had a lot of talented teams too in his career, I think the difference is he had more playoff savy players, especially Malkin. Add his own abilities to up his game, some luck....it’s just one of those things.

Nah. His game did not just magically change during that two month span. Ovechkin has produced and been an effective player almost every postseason but maybe one, by my count. In 2018 all of the stars aligned and he finally got the run support he’d been missing in previous years.

A lot of players finally upped their game too. Look at Kuznetsov. In his 39 playoffs games before 2018, he only had only 19 points with 11 goals and was a -1. Add guys like Wilson and Carlson finding their scoring touch, with secondary scoring coming from guys like Eller, Connelly, and Smith-Pelly. Then you have your big guys like Holtby, Ovechkin, Backstrom, and Oshie...all playing at their highest level.


This is all what really needs to happen in order to win a cup. Things need to be running on all fronts. The Caps gained confidence that hadn’t been there, and they ran with it. Everyone contributed and everyone did their jobs.