Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[Varan]

Finishing is hugely important, I agree. We see lpts of teams who can dominate possession but fail to finish. I think it gets a bit overvalued at times when it comes to Ovechkin though, because his game has been so focused on his finishing ability the past 8 years that I don't think his effect on his team's scoring is as great as his totals suggest, and a bit more representative of how their offense is set-up. If he was doing more things to drive possession and carrying and passing the puck more and scored 10 fewer goals and 10 more assists, I don't think he'd be any less valuable a player.

I mean Ovechkin is an anomaly when it comes to goal scoring because we haven’t seen anyone like him ever. He probably is the GOAT goal-scorer and his longevity is what sets him apart. That’s why I believe it’s a little bit over analyzed when it comes to Ovechkin because we haven’t seen anyone do it as consistent him. We also haven’t seen someone switch from an all-around force to a pure sniper.

I think if we take any other goal scorer we look at goal scoring differently.

 

[Varan]

Find me a single Tampa fan saying Kucherov is better than Point. I'll wait. There's a difference between getting points and being an effective hockey player. And that's the whole issue with Ovechkin viewed as as a top 10 GOAT. He's not, by a long shot.

His accolades have to come in as well, not just his goal scoring heroics. His resume is only topped by a few others.

Kucherov is better offensively for sure, but all around goes to Point.

 

[Sentinel]

He is in my Top 10.

1. Wayne Gretzky (C)
2. Gordie Howe (RW)
3. Bobby Orr (D)
4. Mario Lemieux (C)
5. Dominic Hasek (G)
6. Phil Esposito (C)
7. Jean Beliveau (C)
8. Alexander Ovechkin (LW)
9. Bobby Hull (LW)
10. Sergei Makarov (RW)

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Vote % means that Ovechkin got 12% of the possible maximum (the situation when every voter votes the player #1), and Kucherov got 98% of that maximum.
This percentage does not have to sum to 100%, it is like a test score - I got 75% and you got 80%, it sums to 155%, so what.

From 1996 onwards, the vote shares for the Hart should add up to 260% each year. Your numbers are right - Ovechkin got a 14% share in 2016 and a 12% share in 2019.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Like I said the argument for Ovi is way to goal centric, there is more to winning.

That's like saying the argument for Gretzky is way too offensively centric...

Gretzky was a great offensive player, but he was one dimensional in that he was pretty much ALL offensively focused. I saw him live on a few occassions and watched him over the years. The man simply waited for the offensive opportunity to go.

And... that was just fine. Other teams knew they had to watch him and even if he was sitting at the blueline waiting to be sprung he still had somebody shadowing him. He wasn't the defensive player nor was he as physical as Bryan Trottier. Trottier did so many things that Gretzky didn't do. But... so what?

Gretzky was absolutely insane on offense. It simply outweighs any deficiencies in his game. And it's the same for Ovechkin. OV isn't much of a playmaker and you can pick holes in his D. But his goalscoring is better than any player in history.

His points are close to Crosby and he's got more individual awards. I don't see how people can just write him off.

 

[Regal]

I guess your idea of "driving play" is playing like Adam Oates. Ovechkin was very much "driving play" in 2014/15 and even in 2017/18. Crosby outpointed him, but Hart voters backed Ovechkin in a landslide - probably they just did not get the memo that Crosby was "driving play" and they are all "stat-heads who love goals above all else".



This is relevant to the difference between projections and facts. Some people suggested in 2010 that Crosby would surpass Ovechkin's career accomplishments because Crosby would age better. Well, those people were wrong - they grossly underestimated how smart and physically gifted Ovechkin is. Ovechkin did not throw his body around to the point where it hurt him, but Crosby did fish for rebounds a bit too much and got a puck to the jaw, and now his body seems to be giving up on him, and Ovechkin is still staying healthy.



Just a day or two ago 40ish people here voted on the best player 2019-2020 Best NHL Players: Voting (Results Out Now)
Guess what - Crosby and Ovechkin sit next to each other in high teens. Were all voters Caps fans? No. It is just that the idea that Crosby is still a top3-top5 player is a fringe minority opinion. It is a vocal minority, but still.

No my idea of driving play is having an effect on underlying numbers like GF%, CF%, xGF%. Ovechkin still drove play in those seasons. Not nearly to the extent of his early seasons, and not even more than a gimpy Crosby this year.

You can fault Crosby for injuries in an all-time sense, but it doesn't change that we saw that he very clearly was a better player at those ages. Not believing that is just being purposely obtuse to fit a narrative.

40 people lol. This place has as much of a hard on for Ovechkin's goals as the expense of all else that it's not surprising that he finished high. Crosby's stock has taken a hit because of recency bias against his injury riddled season. The fact that Ovechkin is after him after winning the Richard is telling. The year before we see polls that still listed him top 3 and the number one player people would take going into the playoffs. I mean if we're using polls, Crosby is running away with 5th place here and Ovechkin has one vote: 2020 HFBoards NHL Forward Rankings #5

 

[daver]

Thanks, the wording in the original post really nailed it; it was worth reading again.

 

[daver]

I didn't grow up knowing hockey. I came to love the game and all its quirks as is. The hockey assist is not the equivalent of something like a soccer assist.

I've seen way too many times someone push the puck up and the puck bounce randomly off the boards or off the opposing team to another player who is luckily in the right place at the right time and score - benefitting the initial player with a primary assist even though it was wholly unintentional.

I've learned to just take it as it is. A quirk in the sport. Thats why the vast majority of goals have assists attached to them, not to mention secondary assists. So no. Often times assists don't mean what you think it does. You are thinking of soccer.

So which Wayne Gretzky was better? The one who scored 92 goals or the one who scored 151 assists and increased the production of his linemates significantly?

 

[Price is Wright]

Greatest left wing to ever play the game.

Should count for something.

 

[Midnight Judges]

40 people lol. This place has as much of a hard on for Ovechkin's goals as the expense of all else that it's not surprising that he finished high.

Did you just accuse HFBoards - a forum dominated by Canadians - of having a pro-Ovechkin bias?

Wow.

 

[filinski77]

Filinski77 made this point a while ago, so I'll give credit to him: Excluding Ovechkin, there have been 14 50-goal seasons since 2005/2006, and 239 50-assist seasons.

But certain folks will have you believe that goals and assists are equal. It's beyond parody.

Exactly, this is a statistical fact that shows that goal-scoring is harder than racking up assists (not that assists are not super important - because they still are).

There are ~1.7 assists per goal, showing that goals are indeed more rare and valuable than assists are.

A player with 50 goals is 99% of the time better than a player with 50 assists.

 

[filinski77]

Another thing I think is worth considering is the unique-ness of each player in the top 5-10 already.

Wayne/Lemieux/Howe/Orr were all very unique hockey players who are all-time greats for more or less different reasons. When looking at the next group of guys that can go from 5th to 10th, it's probably worth nothing what those players did that makes them different from other players in the top 10.

For example, Hasek had the highest (IMO) peak of any goalie ever. Ovechkin has the most impressive goalscoring resume of all-time (IMO). Things like that I think go a long way to a top-10 all time ranking.

 

[wetcoast]

I mean Ovechkin is an anomaly when it comes to goal scoring because we haven’t seen anyone like him ever. He probably is the GOAT goal-scorer and his longevity is what sets him apart. That’s why I believe it’s a little bit over analyzed when it comes to Ovechkin because we haven’t seen anyone do it as consistent him. We also haven’t seen someone switch from an all-around force to a pure sniper.

I think if we take any other goal scorer we look at goal scoring differently.

This is the elephant in the room that never gets addressed though.

If the goals are always more important crown really believed this Jonathan Cheechoo should have finished much higher than 15th in Hart voting when his line mate Joe Thortnon won it despite scoring a grand total of 29 goals that season right.

 

[wetcoast]

From 1996 onwards, the vote shares for the Hart should add up to 260% each year. Your numbers are right - Ovechkin got a 14% share in 2016 and a 12% share in 2019.

I think this context is important as almost always when a % is used people are thinking that % out a possible 100%.

 

[Brucelenok]

The fact that this discussion is still up after 62 pages is insulting to Ovy. The guy has the better resume in his first 6 years than most HHOF players during their entire careers, then you add his other 14 seasons (which sure, were not as dominant but still better than most of the guys) and it is not even close.

 

[RageQuit77]

Exactly, this is a statistical fact that shows that goal-scoring is harder than racking up assists (not that assists are not super important - because they still are).

There are ~1.7 assists per goal, showing that goals are indeed more rare and valuable than assists are.

A player with 50 goals is 99% of the time better than a player with 50 assists.

Yes. I don't know how people can handle goals and assists as equals. It makes no sense.

All assists are always products of goals, as no assist(s) are ever credited without the goal scored, and that FACT doesn't go other way around. The parody comes from the fact that their point values is 1 for all three different cases considered and counted as points, when its immediately, apparently, and obviously clear by eye-test, by logic, by math, by statistics, by common sense, by players' own evaluations, by objective of the play, and by the definition of winning condition of the game of hockey that they simply are not equal.

People tend to mix two different things: passes and assists. Neither is required for a goal to be scored, but all assists are not passes, and all passes that really assist the goal aren't credited as points.

A goal produce all point value attached to it. In 100% of known cases, over entire history of the game of hockey.

 

[Beau Knows]

This list in the history section from a couple years ago had him at 22nd. So maybe he's moved up a bit and is in the 15-20 range? It's possible he could end up in the top 10, but I think it's unlikely.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

This list in the history section from a couple years ago had him at 22nd. So maybe he's moved up a bit and is in the 15-20 range? It's possible he could end up in the top 10, but I think it's unlikely.

For the record- Ovechkin was voted in December 2018 (so before two more Richard trophies and a 7th place Hart finish).

 

[tenken00]

So which Wayne Gretzky was better? The one who scored 92 goals or the one who scored 151 assists and increased the production of his linemates significantly?

92 goals. No doubt about it. I'm not saying Gretzky wasn't an offensive tour de force, with him setting up everyone and their dog. Its just that the hockey assist is the stat with the most randomness attributed to it out of any other sport.

You can literally blast a puck from your own crease, have it pinball off the faces of 4 opponents and their goalie to have it fall right in front of your teammate a foot away from the net. BAM! Primary assist.

 

[Midnight Judges]

This list in the history section from a couple years ago had him at 22nd. So maybe he's moved up a bit and is in the 15-20 range? It's possible he could end up in the top 10, but I think it's unlikely.

That list is a joke. The history forum is tainted with blatant nativism. One of the voters said Ryan Getzlaf is better than Ovechkin. Another guy had Gretzky 7th and Ovechkin 59th. Yet another guy maintains that Crosby is actually a better goal scorer, but he chooses not to score goals. Several others maintained that Ovechkin is a "shoot only" player despite his 550 assists. The one and only Russian participant quit the project in protest.

Roughly 70% of the voters were Canadian, and an additional ~ 15% were Penguins fans. So the Russian Capitals player didn't get much of a fair shake there.

 

[Beau Knows]

That list is a joke. The history forum is tainted with blatant nativism. One of the voters said Getzlaf is better than Ovechkin. Another guy had Gretzky 7th and Ovechkin 59th. Several others maintained that Ovechkin is a "shoot only" player. The one and only Russian participant quit the project in protest.

70% of the voters were Canadian, and an additional ~ 15% were Penguins fans. So the Russian Capitals player didn't get much of a fair shake there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah everyone is wrong but you. If you keep making the exact same Ovechkin > Crosby posts all day every day for 10 more years it should eventually be true.

 

[pi314]

92 goals. No doubt about it. I'm not saying Gretzky wasn't an offensive tour de force, with him setting up everyone and their dog. Its just that the hockey assist is the stat with the most randomness attributed to it out of any other sport.

You can literally blast a puck from your own crease, have it pinball off the faces of 4 opponents and their goalie to have it fall right in front of your teammate a foot away from the net. BAM! Primary assist.

Yeah we all know those 200 foot pinball goals that happen nightly.

 

[tenken00]

Yeah we all know those 200 foot pinball goals that happen nightly.

But that's the point. It was an outrageous example because it can happen in hockey because hockey counts it. In any other sport, something like that wouldn't even be dignified with some sort of tally. And far less outrageous examples happen game in and game out all the time.

 

[pi314]

But that's the point. It was an outrageous example because it can happen in hockey because hockey counts it. In any other sport, something like that wouldn't even be dignified with some sort of tally. It's just oh it's a crazy play, that's it.

Show me a highlight of said play.

Vesa Toskala doesn’t count.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Yeah, yeah, yeah everyone is wrong but you. If you keep making the exact same Ovechkin > Crosby posts all day every day for 10 more years it should eventually be true.

I'm not saying everyone there is incorrect. There are some good guys providing lots of great statistics and great information. But if a guy is so blatantly anti that he says Ovie isn't top 50, or isn't better than Ryan freakin Getzlaf, or Crosby is a better goal scorer, or Ovechkin does not pass the puck - then how much value can we possibly place in their opinions?

Each of those statements were made by 1 or more participants, and the other participants didn't take much issue. So take it for what it's worth. It's the equivalent of a Presidential poll with a sample of 70% Republicans.