Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[filinski77]

See the bolded section. Therein lies the problem.

Assists are so "random" that Gretzky must be like a lottery winner.

Because he just kept "randomly" piling them up.

More than anyone else in history.

Definitely didn't have anything to do with his vision, creativity, skillset, and awareness.

Just an arbitrary beneficiary of good fortune.

I can't tell whether you people are just that devoted to your favorite player or you know absolutely nothing about hockey beyond a highlight clip from YouTube.

Not sure if you are purposely being narrow-minded or what here. Arbitrary does not have to mean "random", it just means that there's no real reason for why the NHL chose 2 assists vs. 0, 1, or even 3. I believe the NHL originally started out with only 1 assist, then after 1 or 2 years, switched to 2, and then in the mid-40's brought it down to 1 for a single season, and then brought it back to 2. If you try to find any explanation for what 2 assists is the most appropriate number of assists to accurately determine how points are best accumulated, you will find absolutely nothing.

Now on to your Gretzky example: I never once mentioned that having the most assists in NHL history made his success random, or indicated that he lacked skills, so not sure why you are bringing that up.

	Gretzky	#2 All Time	% Lead over #2
Points	2,857	1,921	49%
Goals	894	801	12%
Total Assists	1,963	1,249	57%
A1	1,324	797	66%
A2	639	582	10%
Primary	2,218	1,547	43%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

From: NHL Stats

Gretzky has a better Primary assist dominance than he does secondary or total assist lead. His primary point lead over #2 is only a bit less than his normal point lead. If the NHL had historically recorded 3 assists per goal, I can safely assume that Wayne would still be the total assist leader, and the total goal leader, and the total point leader.

 

[tictactoe]

No doubt. Top 5 forward all time.

 

[discobob]

The value of assists vs goals argument actually baffles me. When multiple assists are awarded for a single goal, it inherently devalues assists. Several players may have a combined assist total of 40, which only results in 20 team points, whereas a combined goal total of 40 goals is always worth 40 team points. When connecting stats to goals scored its necessary to try to objectively measure stats against each other.

You could make the argument that assists are as valuable as goals if the secondary assist was eliminated, but he current ~1.7 assists per goal situation makes that argument untenable....

 

[Fantomas]

Yes I'm sure when Milan Hejduk was leading the league in goals, you were busy telling your hockey friends that it was a travesty Joe Sakic was considered a better player because he had more points.

You're confused. Hejduk wasn't a better player than Sakic, but he absolutely positively had a better season than Sakic in 2002-03 (the one year in which Hejduk led the league in goals). Would you argue otherwise?

Also, funny thing: he also had more points than Sakic that year. 40 more in fact (98 to 58).

 

[Hank Plank]

Top 5 tooth gap for sure.

 

[moropanov]

Realitically do we talk about hockey ability if so he is not top 1000, but if we talk about status/achievement's sure top 20-30 is realistic ratio, but if you want to win there's hundreds of better active hockey players atm around world even out of NHL than Ovezkin. He was better at his younger day's but nowadays his goal scoring is mostly just marketing trick. He doesnt make any difference maybe negative overall impact for team's he play for. No that he could play better hockey than skilled KHL players or NLA players top end KHL/NLA players have much greater hockey skill than Ovy if we talk about it objectively not being fans of this player.

 

[Phenomenaut]

I think it's pretty clear at this point he isn't ahead of the following players, so unless he has a late career revival and suddenly starts driving play again, I don't see it. That's not a slight against him, he's still elite even now, but so were the guys ahead of him.

Not a chance in hell, period:
F: Gretkzy, Howe, Lemieux
D: Orr

Requires late career Hart/Smythe calibre seasons, but there's I guess a faint hope of happening.
F: Bobby Hull, Beliveau, Richard
D: Harvey, Shore, Bourque
G: Roy, Hasek

Could pass with a few more elite seasons:
F: Morenz, Jagr, Messier
D: Lidstrom, Kelly, Potvin
G: Plante

Currently roughly on par with:
F: Lafleur, Mikita, Esposito

Is playing right now and currently ahead of him:
F: Crosby

So I have him between 21-24 all time right now. If he ages well to say 38, passes Gretzky on goals, but doesn't seriously contend for Harts and doesn't have any great playoff runs going forward, I can see him getting into the 13-18 range all time. Top ten is a hard sell. He's not dislodging the big four at this point, but if he has a surprise Hart year and a deep playoff run, maybe he breach the top ten.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

I think it's pretty clear at this point he isn't ahead of the following players, so unless he has a late career revival and suddenly starts driving play again, I don't see it. That's not a slight against him, he's still elite even now, but so were the guys ahead of him.

Not a chance in hell, period:
F: Gretkzy, Howe, Lemieux
D: Orr

Requires late career Hart/Smythe calibre seasons, but there's I guess a faint hope of happening.
F: Bobby Hull, Beliveau, Richard
D: Harvey, Shore, Bourque
G: Roy, Hasek

Could pass with a few more elite seasons:
F: Morenz, Jagr, Messier
D: Lidstrom, Kelly, Potvin
G: Plante

Currently roughly on par with:
F: Lafleur, Mikita, Esposito

Is playing right now and currently ahead of him:
F: Crosby

So I have him between 21-24 all time right now. If he ages well to say 38, passes Gretzky on goals, but doesn't seriously contend for Harts and doesn't have any great playoff runs going forward, I can see him getting into the 13-18 range all time. Top ten is a hard sell. He's not dislodging the big four at this point, but if he has a surprise Hart year and a deep playoff run, maybe he breach the top ten.

He's ahead of Richard and a lot of people you listed here already, stop it.

 

[daver]

The value of assists vs goals argument actually baffles me. When multiple assists are awarded for a single goal, it inherently devalues assists. Several players may have a combined assist total of 40, which only results in 20 team points, whereas a combined goal total of 40 goala is always worth 40 team points. When connecting stats to goals scores is necessary to try to objectively measure stats against each other.

You could make the argument that assists are as valuable as goals if the secondary assist was eliminated, but he current ~1.7 assists per goal situation makes that argument untenable....

This makes no sense. Every assist that a player has was the result of a goal. 40 assists by a player = 40 team goals as much as 40 goals by a player = 40 team goals.

The hockey world clearly acknowledges the value of creating offense first and foremost whether through the ability to put the puck in the net like OV or by the ability to set up goalscorers like Thornton or Sedin or a combo of goalscoring and playmaking like Crosby. This is why the points leader is generally seen as the most valuable by the writers and the best player by the players themselves.

Goalscoring has marginal more value over playmaking but points generation, however it is achieved, is clearly viewed as superior to those two.

When talking about OV vs. Crosby, other than OV's first five years, Crosby has a clear advantage in generating superior offense while usually carrying a line of lower depth forwards which has been a huge benefit to his team while also providing responsible, if not elite, defensive play.

To answer the OP, OV will always be a bit behind the Beliveau, Hull and Crosby (and likely Richard) which makes him a marginal Top Ten player.

 

[Hasa92]

Arguably he already is a top 10 player. If he breaks the record he will be a lock and arguably within the top 5. Also if he breaks the record he should be considered the best player of his generation.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

lol no. Guy scored 65 points in 78 games as a 26 year old. And has multiple other seasons well below a ppg in his prime.

Lol he has won 7 goal scoring titles since then

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Realitically do we talk about hockey ability if so he is not top 1000, but if we talk about status/achievement's sure top 20-30 is realistic ratio, but if you want to win there's hundreds of better active hockey players atm around world even out of NHL than Ovezkin. He was better at his younger day's but nowadays his goal scoring is mostly just marketing trick. He doesnt make any difference maybe negative overall impact for team's he play for. No that he could play better hockey than skilled KHL players or NLA players top end KHL/NLA players have much greater hockey skill than Ovy if we talk about it objectively not being fans of this player.

Wow we found @illpucks evil twin

 

[Midnight Judges]

He's ahead of Richard and a lot of people you listed here already, stop it.

Apparently Ovechkin needs a fourth Hart in order to pass guys who....wait for it...never won a Hart.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Currently roughly on par with:
F: Lafleur, Mikita, Esposito

Ovechkin's peak is equal or greater to Lafleur's, and Lafleur was garbage outside of his peak, whereas Ovechkin led the NHL in goals 7 more times, has a Conn Smythe, and a post-peak Hart.

And Mikita. Good god.

Your post is so incredibly off-base that it belongs in the history forum.

 

[Varan]

Wow the usual suspects are back. I've never seen people try to devalue or use against, the importance of goals, because one player emerged and has been so great at it, that it may push him past their favourite player. The irony in using "Ovechkin is your fav player so you're using mental gymnastics to prop him up", when it is clear as day Crosby's rank is in danger due to Ovechkin's goal-scoring prowess.

Goalposts are moved left and right because someone is too good at it. LOL I'm dead. There's a reason why goal-scorers have less of a total when winning the Rocket compared to the top players in assists.

It's not everything, but it's the most hardest aspect of offense. I posted this earlier in this thread:

Sure there are factors that lead up to the goal which aren't on the box score and will be blind to the average fan, but you can be a dominant defensive, puck-possessive team who can have a hard time finishing; that's where goals > assists and offense = production. I have seen numerous teams (offensively talented teams) flame out due to their inability to finish a play. That is invaluable in hockey. You can be a great playmaker, do all the right things, get people into prime positions, and still not be able to score. You ability is there no question, but in the end what matters? What shows up in the scoresheet? Whether you were able to score more goals than your opponent.

So yes, finishing is invaluable in today's league and is why offense is always more important than defense, even though it's "half the game".

Ovechkin is and will always be a finisher. You can't hate on the guy for getting the job done, especially at his age, in today's game, and everyone knowing his tendencies.

The hate is unreal. Ovechkin isn't great because he torches my team too much. He sucks because he scores too many goals and doesn't get more assists instead.



I guarantee you if Crosby had Ovechkin's goal-totals, people would swear up and down he would be better than Gretzky.

The mental gymnastics continue. Find out in the next episode of HFBoards.

 

[Varan]

30-40 range personally

Crosby is in the 50-60 range, personally

 

[TooManyHumans]

So who do people think GMs would take if they had a shot at either Crosby or Ovechkin at the start of their careers? It ought to easily be Ovechkin since he has so clearly passed Crosby in everyone's eyes.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

I don’t see why both Crosby and Ovechkin are in the 5-10 range.

Top four for me is set in stone.

1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Howe
4. Lemieux

5-10 you have a bunch of options.

Personally, I’ve always had Maurice Richard at 5th, mostly due to the story of his. I think you could have Harvey, Beliveau, Hull, Potvin (who I’m just high on).

 

[Randyne]

So who do people think GMs would take if they had a shot at either Crosby or Ovechkin at the start of their careers? It ought to easily be Ovechkin since he has so clearly passed Crosby in everyone's eyes.

Crosby useless without healthy Malkin. Ovechkin won a cup with injured Backstrom.

 

[SouthGeorge]

Crosby is in the 50-60 range, personally

 

[TooManyHumans]

Crosby useless without healthy Malkin. Ovechkin won a cup with injured Backstrom.

Lol. Ok.

 

[daver]

Lol he has won 7 goal scoring titles since then

Which has garnered significantly less attention from Hart and Linsdsay voters. What's your point?

 

[txpd]

The value of assists vs goals argument actually baffles me. When multiple assists are awarded for a single goal, it inherently devalues assists. Several players may have a combined assist total of 40, which only results in 20 team points, whereas a combined goal total of 40 goala is always worth 40 team points. When connecting stats to goals scores is necessary to try to objectively measure stats against each other.

You could make the argument that assists are as valuable as goals if the secondary assist was eliminated, but he current ~1.7 assists per goal situation makes that argument untenable....

In the last full NHL season there were 2 50 goal scorers. There were 32 50 assist scorers. I am fully supportive of the 2nd assist but I also recognize that one thing has harder than the other thing

 

[daver]

In the last full NHL season there were 2 50 goal scorers. There were 32 50 assist scorers. I am fully supportive of the 2nd assist but I also recognize that one thing has harder than the other thing

What does this have to do with giving appropriate value to playmaking?

 

[filinski77]

Which has garnered significantly less attention from Hart and Linsdsay voters. What's your point?

No-one said that winning a rocket = best player no matter what, and deserves top Hart/Lindsay votes. If that was the case, Ovi would have as many Harts as Gretzky lmao.

The thing is that Ovechkin's Hart/Lindsay track record is already top-10 all-time, and THEN when you consider how he's most likely the best goalscorer all-time, a conclusion can be made that he's top-10 all-time.