Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[JasonRoseEh]

^ this guy hockeys

It's an absolutely terrible comparison for multiple reasons, but the biggest is that it's only one way to score a run in the game of baseball while scoring goals is the all encompassing way you win games in hockey. There are no stipulations with scoring goals, unless the statement was "Scoring a lot of power play goals is like hitting a lot of home runs in baseball..." you either score them or you don't and Ovechkin is better than anyone ever at the single most important thing you need to do in the NHL. You can still score runs in baseball without hitting 50 homers in a season.

Again, asinine comparison that is intentionally disrespectful to Ovechkin's greatness as a player.

 

[Coffey]

Backstrom is incredible, but he's never been an Evgeni Malkin level of game breaker.

He's like a better Oates.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

He certainly has a place in the top 10 forwards

GRETZKY
HOWE
JAGR
HULL
MESSIER
MCDAVID
BELIVEAU
OVECHKIN
LAFLEUR
LINDSAY

Ovechkin is better than every player I've bolded on this list right now and when he's done he might be higher.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

He's like a better Oates.

It's a fair comparison, Backstrom has been a stellar 2 way player throughout his career as well and is a better goal scorer than Oates.

 

[Coffey]

It's a fair comparison, Backstrom has been a stellar 2 way player throughout his career as well and is a better goal scorer than Oates.

Yea for sure. Like... A way better Oates.

 

[Neutrinos]

Those two don’t correlate at all. Many consider guys like Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, and Hank Aaron as the best of the best to ever play, and yet all 3 are within the top 5 in home runs. Different sports, different ways of judgement. Unless your a picture, most of the all time greats in baseball are mainly judged on their hitting and homers.

A player can hit a lot of home runs, but not get on base a lot, be lousy defensively, and be a poor base runner

Ruth hit lots of home runs, but he also got on base a lot, and was also one of the best pitchers of his era

Mays hit a lot of home runs, played great defense, and was one of the best base runners ever

Hank Aaron hit a lot of home runs, but he also stole 240 bases, lead the league in hits a couple of times, and won a few Gold Gloves


Being a great goal scorer doesn't make someone a great hockey player

Nobody considers Tim Kerr among the best players of the 80's, despite the fact he was one of the most prolific goal scorers of his generation

 

[GMR]

He certainly has a place in the top 10 forwards

GRETZKY
HOWE
JAGR
HULL
MESSIER
MCDAVID
BELIVEAU
OVECHKIN
LAFLEUR
LINDSAY

Did Mario Lemieux do something terrible to you?

 

[wetcoast]

Lol.

Exactly, anyone thinking that Ovechkin was a better playoff performer than Fedorov is a funny thought.

 

[Khomutov]

A player can hit a lot of home runs, but not get on base a lot, be lousy defensively, and be a poor base runner

Ruth hit lots of home runs, but he also got on base a lot, and was also one of the best pitchers of his era

Mays hit a lot of home runs, played great defense, and was one of the best base runners ever

Hank Aaron hit a lot of home runs, but he also stole 240 bases, lead the league in hits a couple of times, and won a few Gold Gloves


Being a great goal scorer doesn't make someone a great hockey player

Nobody considers Tim Kerr among the best players of the 80's, despite the fact he was one of the most prolific goal scorers of his generation

Well Ovechkin is not just a goal scorer, but one of the best ever and he was always a physical force. He won numerous awards outside of the goal scoring department like Harts, Lindsays, the Art Ross, the Conn Smythe, the Calder.

Lol Tim Kerr.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

A player can hit a lot of home runs, but not get on base a lot, be lousy defensively, and be a poor base runner

Ruth hit lots of home runs, but he also got on base a lot, and was also one of the best pitchers of his era

Mays hit a lot of home runs, played great defense, and was one of the best base runners ever

Hank Aaron hit a lot of home runs, but he also stole 240 bases, lead the league in hits a couple of times, and won a few Gold Gloves


Being a great goal scorer doesn't make someone a great hockey player

Nobody considers Tim Kerr among the best players of the 80's, despite the fact he was one of the most prolific goal scorers of his generation

By your comparison's to baseball above Ovechkin is a great hockey player; he's arguably the greatest power forward in the history of the game along with being likely the greatest at scoring. He's a very good passer, has been a great skater and makes plays on the back end when needed. He's changed and adapted his game to be equally effective as his natural athletic toolset has diminished and he's one of the 10 best players of all time right now. He's a 3xtime MVP and the most decorated individual player of the generation, it isn't even close in that respect and you're talking about Tim Kerr? Stop

I outlined above why your comparison isn't good but I'll do it again: Homeruns aren't the only way you score in baseball, it's simply one way while scoring in the NHL is simply scoring and it's the single most important thing you can be great at on the ice, goaltending aside. Now if your reference was in terms of power play goals that would make sense, but you're wrapping up all goal scoring with home run hitting and it's kind of laughable. Goal scoring isn't some specialty, it's literally what you have to do to win hockey games and you don't do that by getting an arbitrary turn every 9th or so batter, it doesn't happen like that.

Your post was intentionally to dismiss Ovechkin as a hockey player and it failed, miserably.

 

[Neutrinos]

It's an absolutely terrible comparison for multiple reasons, but the biggest is that it's only one way to score a run in the game of baseball while scoring goals is the all encompassing way you win games in hockey. There are no stipulations with scoring goals, unless the statement was "Scoring a lot of power play goals is like hitting a lot of home runs in baseball..." you either score them or you don't and Ovechkin is better than anyone ever at the single most important thing you need to do in the NHL. You can still score runs in baseball without hitting 50 homers in a season.

Again, asinine comparison that is intentionally disrespectful to Ovechkin's greatness as a player.

First of all, I wasn't commenting whatsoever on Ovechkin's "greatness as a player"

I was simply pointing out that being an elite goal scorer doesn't automatically qualify someone as an elite player

Take Tim Kerr, for example. Does anyone consider him among the best players of his generation?


In theory, a player who can't skate, and therefore needs help getting to and from the bench by his teammates, who only ever takes the ice during an offensive zone face-offs, could score 100 goals a year. His teammates keep passing him the puck, and because he's got the best one-timer the world will ever see, hit shots always seem to find the back of the net

Now, this player can barely stand up on skates, can't pass, and can't play defense, but he's scoring 100 goals a season

Is he among the best players ever?

 

[wetcoast]

Have you considered that Fedorov played on a pre-cap team loaded with future HOFers, easily the most dominant teams of the 90s, and as a result were a playoff juggernaut every year? Of course he put up a lot of points in the playoffs.

By contrast, Ovechkin has only played more than 14 postseason games one time.

Considering how often Ovechkin and the Capitals finished high in the standings combined with the fact that Fedorov was a dominant force among other HHOFers in that incredible 4 year stretch doesn't help Ovi.

In fact it bolsters the arguement for Fedorov in the playoffs.

Factor in that the Red Wings were a dumpster fire when Fedorov joined them surely he should get some credit for their emergence right?

 

[GreatGonzo]

A player can hit a lot of home runs, but not get on base a lot, be lousy defensively, and be a poor base runner

Ruth hit lots of home runs, but he also got on base a lot, and was also one of the best pitchers of his era

Mays hit a lot of home runs, played great defense, and was one of the best base runners ever

Hank Aaron hit a lot of home runs, but he also stole 240 bases, lead the league in hits a couple of times, and won a few Gold Gloves


Being a great goal scorer doesn't make someone a great hockey player

Nobody considers Tim Kerr among the best players of the 80's, despite the fact he was one of the most prolific goal scorers of his generation

But again, we aren’t talking about “hitting a lot of homers” we are talking about the top home run hitters ever.

Of course being more well rounded counts for a lot more, but with baseball, home runs are a key component to ones legacy and overall career. If Hank hadn’t even hit even close to that amount of homers, but stole the same amount of bases, then he wouldn’t really be in the discussion as best player. Same goes for Mays, no one really gives that much cudos to baseball players without high numbers, unless your a pitcher. The Babe was a great pitcher too, but again, home runs talk louder.

I mean Ovechkin isn’t just a “great” goal scorer though, that’s the point that your missing and somewhat contradicting. We aren’t talking about a Mike Gartner, or a Dave Andreychuk. He has lead the league in goals more times than anyone. He has 3 Harts and 3 Lindsays, how many other players have as many? That alone puts him in elite company. He also has a scoring title with 7 other top 10 finishes, 5 in the top 5. He also has a legit shot at scoring THE most goals ever.

So again, the tone is rather unimpressive to just say “he’s a great goal scorer.” While he’s clearly been a great player and a dominant one at that.

 

[discobob]

He certainly has a place in the top 10 forwards

GRETZKY
HOWE
JAGR
HULL
MESSIER
MCDAVID
BELIVEAU
OVECHKIN
LAFLEUR
LINDSAY

Ovechkin's first 5 yrs were equal to or better than McDavid (2x Hart's, 3x Lindsay's). Then he went on the best goal scoring run ever (7 of 8 years winning the Richard)...

So no, McDavid can't sniff that list for about 5+ more years, and they better be epic...

 

[GMR]

Well Ovechkin is not just a goal scorer, but one of the best ever and he was always a physical force. He won numerous awards outside of the goal scoring department like Harts, Lindsays, the Art Ross, the Conn Smythe, the Calder.

Lol Tim Kerr.

Yes, he is. His two-way game has been nonexistent in his career, despite playing in an era where that's valued more than it used to be. Look at his mediocre plus/minus numbers over the last few years, despite playing on a perennial top team. This season, he's a -8 despite playing on a division leading team and scoring 40 goals. How is that possible? Too many powerplay points rather than even strength?

Also, his assist numbers this season have decreased significantly from prior years.

He's the best goal scorer of our era. He can still throw a big check. However, let's not pretend he's ever been anything more than a goal scorer.

 

[GMR]

Well Ovechkin is not just a goal scorer, but one of the best ever and he was always a physical force. He won numerous awards outside of the goal scoring department like Harts, Lindsays, the Art Ross, the Conn Smythe, the Calder.

Lol Tim Kerr.

Who are you kidding? He won all those awards because of goal scoring. How are they outside the goal scoring department?

 

[Neutrinos]

By your comparison's to baseball above Ovechkin is a great hockey player; he's arguably the greatest power forward in the history of the game along with being likely the greatest at scoring. He's a very good passer, has been a great skater and makes plays on the back end when needed. He's changed and adapted his game to be equally effective as his natural athletic toolset has diminished and he's one of the 10 best players of all time right now. He's a 3xtime MVP and the most decorated individual player of the generation, it isn't even close in that respect and you're talking about Tim Kerr? Stop

I outlined above why your comparison isn't good but I'll do it again: Homeruns aren't the only way you score in baseball, it's simply one way while scoring in the NHL is simply scoring and it's the single most important thing you can be great at on the ice, goaltending aside. Now if your reference was in terms of power play goals that would make sense, but you're wrapping up all goal scoring with home run hitting and it's kind of laughable. Goal scoring isn't some specialty, it's literally what you have to do to win hockey games and you don't do that by getting an arbitrary turn every 9th or so batter, it doesn't happen like that.

Your post was intentionally to dismiss Ovechkin as a hockey player and it failed, miserably.

That's twice you've made baseless accusations about me after incorrectly interpreting the intent of my messages

That's not the way to participate in a constructive conversation, and so I won't be engaging in any further discussions with you

 

[GreatGonzo]

First of all, I wasn't commenting whatsoever on Ovechkin's "greatness as a player"

I was simply pointing out that being an elite goal scorer doesn't automatically qualify someone as an elite player

Take Tim Kerr, for example. Does anyone consider him among the best players of his generation?


In theory, a player who can't skate, and therefore needs help getting to an from the bench by his teammates, who only ever takes the ice during an offensive zone face-offs, could score 100 goals a year. His teammates keep passing him the puck, and because he's got the best one-timer the world will ever see, hit shots always seem to find the back of the net

Now, this player can barely stand up on skates, can't pass, and can't play defense, but he's scoring 100 goals a season

Is he among the best players ever?

And again, your whole concept is just flat out false. You can keep deliberately underselling his game and how he plays it, or you can take it for what it is.

Why would anyone consider Tim Kerr that? And why is Tim Kerr being compared to Ovechkin? This alone shows desperation.

he’s the best goal scorer in the game, with the best shot.....yet it’s bad that his teammates keep feeding him the puck? What kind of backwards logic is that? He can’t pass? He can’t play defense? He isn’t just some inferior player who is only good at goals, not just that, but his goal scoring has brought his team and himself great success, why continue ignoring that?

Mario Lemieux couldn’t play defense, in fact...he pretty much avoided it at all costs. Why not use that against him? Gretzky lead the league in shots 4 times with the Oilers while having the most shots from 1980-88, why aren’t you using that against Gretzky?

you are just nit picking things at this point while ignoring major things. Tim Kerr? How many Harts does Tim Kerr have? How many times did he lead the league in goals? How many selkes did Lemieux win? How many goals did Gretzky score after he left the Oilers? If your going to ask certain questions, better be more well rounded about it.

 

[filinski77]

A player can hit a lot of home runs, but not get on base a lot, be lousy defensively, and be a poor base runner

Ruth hit lots of home runs, but he also got on base a lot, and was also one of the best pitchers of his era

Mays hit a lot of home runs, played great defense, and was one of the best base runners ever

Hank Aaron hit a lot of home runs, but he also stole 240 bases, lead the league in hits a couple of times, and won a few Gold Gloves


Being a great goal scorer doesn't make someone a great hockey player

Nobody considers Tim Kerr among the best players of the 80's, despite the fact he was one of the most prolific goal scorers of his generation

Absolutely hilarious trying to compare anything Kerr did to Ovechkin.

His top goal finishes: 3/6/3/2/9

His top point finishes: 9

What a joke of a take.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Who are you kidding? He won all those awards because of goal scoring. How are they outside the goal scoring department?

Why does it matter if goal scoring was a major reason why he won those awards? Why is his main strength being criticized when it has brought him so much individual success?

It constantly keeps being said that Ovechkin is only a goal scorer.......yet goals are what win games, they hold the highest value offensively, and he’s been the best one by far. The point is he was also a great PLAYER winning those awards, not just a lone goal scorer. Although he developed more into a goal scorer, his dominance as such can’t just be shrugged off.

 

[Neutrinos]

But again, we aren’t talking about “hitting a lot of homers” we are talking about the top home run hitters ever.

Of course being more well rounded counts for a lot more, but with baseball, home runs are a key component to ones legacy and overall career. If Hank hadn’t even hit even close to that amount of homers, but stole the same amount of bases, then he wouldn’t really be in the discussion as best player. Same goes for Mays, no one really gives that much cudos to baseball players without high numbers, unless your a pitcher. The Babe was a great pitcher too, but again, home runs talk louder.

I mean Ovechkin isn’t just a “great” goal scorer though, that’s the point that your missing and somewhat contradicting. We aren’t talking about a Mike Gartner, or a Dave Andreychuk. He has lead the league in goals more times than anyone. He has 3 Harts and 3 Lindsays, how many other players have as many? That alone puts him in elite company. He also has a scoring title with 7 other top 10 finishes, 5 in the top 5. He also has a legit shot at scoring THE most goals ever.

So again, the tone is rather unimpressive to just say “he’s a great goal scorer.” While he’s clearly been a great player and a dominant one at that.

A baseball player who can't run, and can't play defense, could hit a home run once every 10 at-bats, but strikeout the other 9 times

If he did that over the course of 20 seasons, he'd be the all-time leader in home runs

Would that make him among the best players ever?

 

[JasonRoseEh]

First of all, I wasn't commenting whatsoever on Ovechkin's "greatness as a player"

I was simply pointing out that being an elite goal scorer doesn't automatically qualify someone as an elite player

Take Tim Kerr, for example. Does anyone consider him among the best players of his generation?


In theory, a player who can't skate, and therefore needs help getting to and from the bench by his teammates, who only ever takes the ice during an offensive zone face-offs, could score 100 goals a year. His teammates keep passing him the puck, and because he's got the best one-timer the world will ever see, hit shots always seem to find the back of the net

Now, this player can barely stand up on skates, can't pass, and can't play defense, but he's scoring 100 goals a season

Is he among the best players ever?

If that's the route you'd like to go then sure but... "checks thread title" it's about Ovechkin's candidacy as a top 10 all time player and your comment doesn't live outside of that. Regardless, inferring goal scoring to home run hitting is a flawed argument in and of itself so my comment stands.

 

[GMR]

Why does it matter if goal scoring was a major reason why he won those awards? Why is his main strength being criticized when it has brought him so much individual success?

It constantly keeps being said that Ovechkin is only a goal scorer.......yet goals are what win games, they hold the highest value offensively, and he’s been the best one by far. The point is he was also a great PLAYER winning those awards, not just a lone goal scorer. Although he developed more into a goal scorer, his dominance as such can’t just be shrugged off.

I don't criticize it. Goal scoring is the most important thing in hockey and the object of the game. I'm just saying let's not kid ourselves that there's other reasons for why he won those awards.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Yes, he is. His two-way game has been nonexistent in his career, despite playing in an era where that's valued more than it used to be. Look at his mediocre plus/minus numbers over the last few years, despite playing on a perennial top team. This season, he's a -8 despite playing on a division leading team and scoring 40 goals. How is that possible? Too many powerplay points rather than even strength?

Also, his assist numbers this season have decreased significantly from prior years.

He's the best goal scorer of our era. He can still throw a big check. However, let's not pretend he's ever been anything more than a goal scorer.

Wilson and Backstrom are just huge putting the puck in the net, eh? Ovechkin's drop in assists directly correlate to the lack of goal scoring on his wings and the SIGNIFICANT drop in the PP effectiveness.

Uh oh, a +/- alert! Someone tell this guy that the player leading the league in points is -11 and Crosby is -5.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yes, he is. His two-way game has been nonexistent in his career, despite playing in an era where that's valued more than it used to be. Look at his mediocre plus/minus numbers over the last few years, despite playing on a perennial top team. This season, he's a -8 despite playing on a division leading team and scoring 40 goals. How is that possible? Too many powerplay points rather than even strength?

Also, his assist numbers this season have decreased significantly from prior years.

He's the best goal scorer of our era. He can still throw a big check. However, let's not pretend he's ever been anything more than a goal scorer.

Your right, Ovechkin is a one trick pony. Defense and assists are clearly more important than goals, while plus/minus is the best and most accurate stat of all time. Ovechkins cup, smythe, Harts, Lindsays, and All Star honors are clearly inferior given how he can’t play defense and can’t stack up assists. Ovechkin would be lucky to even be a top 30 player, I mean how many selke votes does he have??? How can you even be considered one of the greatest but not be able to pile on meaningless assists? Goals? Cool anyone can score goals.

Happy?