Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[xECK29x]

Of course he is

 

[Vex]

He’s utterly predictable where his goals come from on the ice. His game isn’t all that imaginative. He’ll either hit from one of the fave off circles or do the skate across the top of the blue line as he enters the zone.

And he succeeds at it. To an unbelievable degree. You forgot that part.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yes and the context of this thread is TOP 10 PLAYER OF ALL TIME And the results I listed above after Ovechkin's first 6 years puts him really low among other top 50 forwards and separates other payers from him for now.



The irony here is awesome.

Also his goalscoring exploits don't get lessened because his assists totals aren't high.

But there is zero chance getting around the fact that he has become more of a goalscorer than an overall and more balanced force up to age 25



Once again this is about top 10 all time not some shorter period of time.

There are simply very many players who also displayed elite goalscoring and a more complete game.



Ovi has had some people good personal around him for the majority of his career.

Part of the reason that other caps don't score as many goals is the ice time and focus on the capitals getting an Ovi shot that there are lesser opportunities for his linemates than for alot of other top players over time.



This is really weak as I pointed out above, team mates aren't dragging his assists totals down, anyone watching him in the last 10 years can see the shifting in his game since 10-11.



No he isn't bad overall for his career but the trend in the last 8 years doesn't hold up very well against other guys viewing for the top 10 of all time.

His goalscoring exploits can partly be attributed to this small shift in his game and his slight decline from his prime as an overall threat.

But then again follows the agenda or criteria that there must be a certain level of assists in order to be mentioned anywhere near the top 10, and that’s ridiculous. Of course he isn’t one of the best playmakers of all time, but scorers? Absolutely. Players? Yes. Even if his assists numbers don’t pop out at you, doesn’t make his impact and talent as a player less. I always hear hockey is more than points, yet apparently to be considered top 10, you HAVE to have a certain number of assists. Such standard doesn’t exists. Just like a certain number of goals isn’t required either.

This thread is littered with many who suddenly decided that assists have more value than goals in terms of being top 10, not you particularly, but yes the irony is unreal seeing how the standards suddenly changed when discussing Ovechkin.

and again, “just a goal scorer.” He became arguably the most dominant goal scorer EVER. That’s more than being just a goal scorer, he also continued finding individual success with some team success as well.

I mean it’s all subjective no matter what but he his resume and what he has accomplished alone rivals the all time greats. Even if he stopped competing for the scoring title, his Harts/Lindsays WITH his rockets put him in some extraordinarily company. Again, top 10 should be about a career as a whole. He will also arguably the best player to hit 700 goals. I would put him already past Hull, Gartner, Dionne, and Esposito. And if he breaks the all time goal record, it will be hard to ignore him being top 10 player.

Again the fact that it’s being held against him that he’s had Good teammates is beyond ridiculous. Since when is that a bad thing, especially if your exceeding your own teammates more ways than not. I don’t see anyone using Malkin being on Crosby’s team in terms of what he has accomplished, why not? It’s the same concept. Facts are almost every all time great has had great teams around them. Ovechkin suddenly doesn’t get to be the exception, he’s been the best capital by far and the best capital of all time, that counts for something.

Again, blaming Ovechkin seems to be the popular go to. No, it’s because Ovechkin is a superior goal scorer. Why not have your superior goal scorer be your main go to guy? Why not have the guy with the best shot get the puck more? And the results speak for themselves. The Caps haven’t exactly been complimented with elite scorers over the years, Ovechkin has been their consistent guy. Again, why that’s being held against him is beyond me.

Last 8 years:
-4th in Points
-1st in goals
-Hart(1x Nominee)
-Conn Smythe
-2x Lindsay Nominee
-6 Rockets
-3x Top ten points
-2x First team AS
-2x Second team AS

but again, assists. Assists apparently should be counted more than ALL of that, compared to all he has accomplished, assists are what are holding him back? Nonesense.

 

[GreatGonzo]

He’s utterly predictable where his goals come from on the ice. His game isn’t all that imaginative. He’ll either hit from one of the fave off circles or do the skate across the top of the blue line as he enters the zone.

So predictable that he still continues to do it and no one can stop it and no one can maintain the same level of scoring....hmmm.....

 

[GreatGonzo]

Young Ovechkin was indeed an excellent playmaker. Not Jagr-excellent, but still a very competent quarterback on PP and actually a double threat when he was flying down the left side of the ice. He made a lot of great passes, which were hard at times, and sometimes unexpected to his linemates, but back 10 years ago people watching OV would roll their eyes at his linemates "how could you NOT score from that pass?" pretty much every other game.

In terms of career as a whole, Ovechkin's playmaking also looks good. He will most probably compile his way past 700 career assists, which will put him in top50 all-time and firmly top10 among wingers. Yes, one can complain about the length of his playmaking prime and the height of his playmaking peak, but consistency and longevity matter, and if you pitch his playmaking career against someone like Hossa or Kovalev, I am not sure who will comes out on top.

The last several seasons, starting from 12/13, Ovechkin is indeed focusing on goal-scoring. He can no longer do it all, but he keeps his core competency. There is no doubt I think that what he is doing is right and good for the team. Consider his 15/16 and 16/17 seasons, when his points were about the same, but in 15/16 he scored 50 goals and got a lot of attention in Hart voting and a spot on the 1st All-star team, and in 16/17 his points were evenly split between goals and assists, and he got no Hart votes and only made the 3rd All-star team.

So bringing up Ovechkin's assists post-2012 is like complaining about Joe Thornton's goals. Yes, it is true that Jumbo Joe never scored 30 goals after turning 23 and could not even hit 20 goals almost for the last decade of his career. But this is not what defines his career - he will be remembered for his stellar playmaking that continued well into his 30s, his goals are not that important.

All this. He had Semin and Green on the trigger on the PP during those years. A playmaker is only as good as his scorers, even Backstrom netted 30 goals.

ultimately, his goal scoring has definitely made the difference with his teams success. Goals win games, and goals are the ultimate factor when deciding games. I don’t recall a player with 5 assists being better than a player with 5 goals in a game.

 

[wetcoast]

But then again follows the agenda or criteria that there must be a certain level of assists in order to be mentioned anywhere near the top 10, and that’s ridiculous. Of course he isn’t one of the best playmakers of all time, but scorers? Absolutely. Players? Yes. Even if his assists numbers don’t pop out at you, doesn’t make his impact and talent as a player less. I always hear hockey is more than points, yet apparently to be considered top 10, you HAVE to have a certain number of assists. Such standard doesn’t exists. Just like a certain number of goals isn’t required either.

This thread is littered with many who suddenly decided that assists have more value than goals in terms of being top 10, not you particularly, but yes the irony is unreal seeing how the standards suddenly changed when discussing Ovechkin.

and again, “just a goal scorer.” He became arguably the most dominant goal scorer EVER. That’s more than being just a goal scorer, he also continued finding individual success with some team success as well.

I mean it’s all subjective no matter what but he his resume and what he has accomplished alone rivals the all time greats. Even if he stopped competing for the scoring title, his Harts/Lindsays WITH his rockets put him in some extraordinarily company. Again, top 10 should be about a career as a whole. He will also arguably the best player to hit 700 goals. I would put him already past Hull, Gartner, Dionne, and Esposito. And if he breaks the all time goal record, it will be hard to ignore him being top 10 player.

Again the fact that it’s being held against him that he’s had Good teammates is beyond ridiculous. Since when is that a bad thing, especially if your exceeding your own teammates more ways than not. I don’t see anyone using Malkin being on Crosby’s team in terms of what he has accomplished, why not? It’s the same concept. Facts are almost every all time great has had great teams around them. Ovechkin suddenly doesn’t get to be the exception, he’s been the best capital by far and the best capital of all time, that counts for something.

Again, blaming Ovechkin seems to be the popular go to. No, it’s because Ovechkin is a superior goal scorer. Why not have your superior goal scorer be your main go to guy? Why not have the guy with the best shot get the puck more? And the results speak for themselves. The Caps haven’t exactly been complimented with elite scorers over the years, Ovechkin has been their consistent guy. Again, why that’s being held against him is beyond me.

Last 8 years:
-4th in Points
-1st in goals
-Hart(1x Nominee)
-Conn Smythe
-2x Lindsay Nominee
-6 Rockets
-3x Top ten points
-2x First team AS
-2x Second team AS

but again, assists. Assists apparently should be counted more than ALL of that, compared to all he has accomplished, assists are what are holding him back? Nonesense.

While this conversation has been very engaging, it's time to get down to brass tax here.

Gretzky/Howe/Orr/Mario and then

Harvey, Richard, Hull, Beliveau, Harvey, Morenz, Crosby, Hasek, Roy, Bourque, Lidstrom and Harvey, Jagr....
Ovechkin has no chance replacing any of the the first 4 and has an argument to be somewhere in that second grouping but it could also very well be 18th from the list above.

 

[yeaher]

No way, and Bossy was a far better goal scorer than him too.

 

[Mike8]

While this conversation has been very engaging, it's time to get down to brass tax here.

Gretzky/Howe/Orr/Mario and then

Harvey, Richard, Hull, Beliveau, Harvey, Morenz, Crosby, Hasek, Roy, Bourque, Lidstrom and Harvey, Jagr....
Ovechkin has no chance replacing any of the the first 4 and has an argument to be somewhere in that second grouping but it could also very well be 18th from the list above.

Agreed. I think the determining factor is how the rest of his career plays out.

 

[GreatGonzo]

While this conversation has been very engaging, it's time to get down to brass tax here.

Gretzky/Howe/Orr/Mario and then

Harvey, Richard, Hull, Beliveau, Harvey, Morenz, Crosby, Hasek, Roy, Bourque, Lidstrom and Harvey, Jagr....
Ovechkin has no chance replacing any of the the first 4 and has an argument to be somewhere in that second grouping but it could also very well be 18th from the list above.

I appreciate your opinion and your input greatly.

I mean putting together a top 10 outside the big 4 is tough, because IMO those 4 will be forever cemented. It also brings the point, you have 6 spots available, where would he land? Without making a list right now, I mean even 8-10th all time doesn’t sound to bad to me. I Probably wouldn’t put him above a guy like Bourque or even Roy.

hard to determine right now, we might feel differently with less questions when his career is done.

 

[Zuluss]

While this conversation has been very engaging, it's time to get down to brass tax here.

Gretzky/Howe/Orr/Mario and then

Harvey, Richard, Hull, Beliveau, Harvey, Morenz, Crosby, Hasek, Roy, Bourque, Lidstrom and Harvey, Jagr....
Ovechkin has no chance replacing any of the the first 4 and has an argument to be somewhere in that second grouping but it could also very well be 18th from the list above.

I do not see any reason why Ovechkin would not replace Richard if he continues to age well. In fact, I made a post with a comparison in this thread and it seems that Ovechkin is at least level with Richard at the moment unless you put way too much weight on PO and team success
Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

It is not out of question that if Ovechkin continues to defy age and has some more PO success, he can pass or tie Bobby Hull, and someone very close to Hull should not be kept out of top10 ever, because Hull himself is probably #5 all-time after the Big4.

 

[Sentinel]

No way, and Bossy was a far better goal scorer than him too.

At this point Ovechkin left Bossy in the dust.

 

[rfournier103]

I don’t know if he’s top 10, but he’s sure trying like hell to make a case for himself.

 

[yeaher]

At this point Ovechkin left Bossy in the dust.

Guy doesn't even have as many playoff goals as Bossy, I guess part of that was Bossy showed up in the playoff and Ovi did too, once...

 

[wetcoast]

Guy doesn't even have as many playoff goals as Bossy, I guess part of that was Bossy showed up in the playoff and Ovi did too, once...

Mike Bossy had an excellent playoff resume but the gap there isn't as huge as their regular season gap and hasn't been for a couple of years now.

 

[Video Nasty]

While this conversation has been very engaging, it's time to get down to brass tax here.

Gretzky/Howe/Orr/Mario and then

Harvey, Richard, Hull, Beliveau, Harvey, Morenz, Crosby, Hasek, Roy, Bourque, Lidstrom and Harvey, Jagr....
Ovechkin has no chance replacing any of the the first 4 and has an argument to be somewhere in that second grouping but it could also very well be 18th from the list above.

You listed Harvey 3 times lol. So for this example at least, he could be 16th.

How does one make the case for forwards vs defenseman vs goalies really?

Personally, I think Ovechkin will have an argument for being a top 10 forward all time when it’s all said and done. If you include the mix of 6 defenseman and goalies from your list, I couldn’t rank him overall top 10... yet at least. But top 10 forward almost seems like a lock at this point.

In the end, even though we live in this world where people and talking heads on these sports shows obsess over “GOAT” and trying to convince people that the greatest players ever are always the ones playing right here and now, the reality is that there have been so many great players over a 100 years of NHL history, there’s absolutely no shame in being ranked anywhere in the top 20 across all positions at this point in time.

 

[wetcoast]

You listed Harvey 3 times lol. So for this example at least, he could be 16th.

Hey man you are right, I'll have to go change that as it's saturday night and well you know.......

How does one make the case for forwards vs defenseman vs goalies really?

With extreme difficulty and honestly I have a really hard time with goalies but IMO roy and Hasek were just so special and they are ahead of Ovechkin at this point.

Personally, I think Ovechkin will have an argument for being a top 10 forward all time when it’s all said and done. If you include the mix of 6 defenseman and goalies from your list, I couldn’t rank him overall top 10... yet at least. But top 10 forward almost seems like a lock at this point.

This is pretty much where I'm at as well.

I also think that there is an opportunity that crosby and Ovechkin could have legitimate arguments for 5th and 6th place all time when they are done playing and then we could possibly see a thread comparing the 2 if there was any interest around here to do so.........

In the end, even though we live in this world where people and talking heads on these sports shows obsess over “GOAT” and trying to convince people that the greatest players ever are always the ones playing right here and now, the reality is that there have been so many great players over a 100 years of NHL history, there’s absolutely no shame in being ranked anywhere in the top 20 across all positions at this point in time.

It's like sometimes the journey is more important than the destination in that the discussion is more important than any definitive list.

 

[Vancouver Canucks]

Top 20, but if he breaks the goal record, then definitely Top 10.

 

[AleksandarN]

Question. Who would you take a prime Ovechkin or prime Fedorov?

 

[Karl Eriksson]

#5

 

[Steve]

He’s arguably the best goal scorer of all time already and I would say he will be top 10 if he can break that record. He may very well be if he doesn’t.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

While this conversation has been very engaging, it's time to get down to brass tax here.

Gretzky/Howe/Orr/Mario and then

Harvey, Richard, Hull, Beliveau, Harvey, Morenz, Crosby, Hasek, Roy, Bourque, Lidstrom and Harvey, Jagr....
Ovechkin has no chance replacing any of the the first 4 and has an argument to be somewhere in that second grouping but it could also very well be 18th from the list above.

Ovechkin is better than every player I bolded and Crosby is in the top 10 without question as well. Plus, you listed Harvey twice. By the end it won't be a question as it shouldn't be now, placing Ovechkin outside of the top 15 is just disrespectful at this point.

 

[wetcoast]

Question. Who would you take a prime Ovechkin or prime Fedorov?

Fedorov for me as in his prime he was an excellent 2 way threat and more consistent in the playoffs.

 

[wetcoast]

Ovechkin is better than every player I bolded and Crosby is in the top 10 without question as well. Plus, you listed Harvey twice. By the end it won't be a question as it shouldn't be now, placing Ovechkin outside of the top 15 is just disrespectful at this point.

I actually have Harvey listed 3 times as I was celebrating Saturday night a bit too much but that being said Ovechkin doesn't have a clear case over all of those guys......yet.

One day he might but you really need to look at some of those players careers again.

 

[Skrudland2Lomakin]

Guy doesn't even have as many playoff goals as Bossy, I guess part of that was Bossy showed up in the playoff and Ovi did too, once...

He's .984 in playoff PPG and that "one time" he won the Calder.

I mean you're just clearly entering into a bad faith argument here when you show bias like saying "Ovechkin doesn't show up in the playoffs" and he's literally the third best active playoff performer in the league. Only Crosby and Malkin are in front of him (34th all time)

 

[Skrudland2Lomakin]

Fedorov for me as in his prime he was an excellent 2 way threat and more consistent in the playoffs.

By what metric?

Ovechkin has more goals, and a higher PPG with less games. Feds has him beat in assists and that's literally it.


It's really telling to see people consistently crack 8 for being "inconsistent in the playoffs", he's literally one of the most consistent players in NHL history.


I wonder if it helps that Federov had like 4 Hall of Fame players on his team with him during his heyday...