Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[GreatGonzo]

Here are players I'd definitely rank higher than him:

Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Howe
Richard
Hull
Hasek
Roy
Beliveau
Harvey
Lidstrom
Bourque
Shore
Crosby
Jagr


So he's top 20 all time for me. Still rising.

You don’t think he’s passed Beliveau, Harvey, and especially Richard? I mean he has definitely passed Richard. He’s arguably better than Hull, and by his career end, he might end up the top left winger of all time. Even Jagr, I mean I’m not hating on him being ahead of Ovechkin, 5 scoring titles is amazing, but so is 3 Harts and 3 Lindsays. I think it’s closer between the two.

 

[Neutrinos]

Here are players I'd definitely rank higher than him:

Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Howe
Richard
Hull
Hasek
Roy
Beliveau
Harvey
Lidstrom
Bourque
Shore
Crosby
Jagr


So he's top 20 all time for me. Still rising.

Do you believe that Richard was a better hockey player than Ovechkin?

 

[Neutrinos]

Dude 38 assists is not a one trick pony - especially when you've led the NHL in goals.

I'll post some Ovie assists later. Maybe you haven't seen them? Some of them are beauties. Dude is a great passer, it's just that he's got an all-time shot and the Caps use it.

I'd be curious what percentage of his assists are off rebounds or deflections

 

[Neutrinos]

While it's far too early to call Connor a top 10 guy it's a pretty decent bet that his 6th year in the league will be miles better than Ovi's 6th year.

It depends on the criteria being used

I'd put him among the top 10 best players ever, but he's got a ways to go before being recognized as one of the greatest

 

[GreatGonzo]

Getting back to your point about Ovechkin being a "one man show"

In 2 of those playoffs runs from '08 - '11, he was only a single point ahead of the next guy on his team, though it's certainly possible that Ovechkin was the straw stirring the drink, while the others were along for the ride

As for my point, I was just relaying that Pronger also had some monster playoff performances

Why are you dissecting the stats to have it suit your agenda? He has 50 points in 37 games with 25 goals. He has 18 more points than Backstrom with 13 more goals. He also has the most assists with 25 and a 1.35 PPG.

he lead every playoff run in points every year and goals all but one where he tied Backstrom.

You can manipulate it any way you would like, stats are stats. And Pronger is a playoff warrior, the biggest difference is he still lost 2/3 of those times and the Ducks were a stacked team, they won both games that Pronger was suspended. Not taking anything away from his contribution, but Ovechkin still has the smythe to show for.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Do you believe that Richard is a better hockey player than Ovechkin?

Maurice “Rocket” Richard is one of the greatest to ever play the game. Was the first player to do things no one thought were possible, he scored 50 goals in 50 games. Howe and Richard were like Crosby & Ovechkin, the debates on who was greater were frequent (Mr. Hockey eventually surpassed him). Richard was a prolific goal scorer with an edge and his playoff scoring was legendary; 8 Stanley Cups! I have the Great 8 in the top 10, but have Richard ranked slightly higher.

 

[Neutrinos]

Maurice “Rocket” Richard is one of the greatest to ever play the game. Was the first player to do things no one thought were possible, he scored 50 goals in 50 games. Howe and Richard were like Crosby & Ovechkin, the debates on who was greater were frequent (Mr. Hockey eventually surpassed him). Richard was a prolific goal scorer with an edge and his playoff scoring was legendary; 8 Stanley Cups! I have the Great 8 in the top 10, but have Richard ranked slightly higher.

I didn't ask for Richard's resume

The question was 'Do you believe that Richard was a better hockey player than Ovechkin?'

 

[GMR]

You don’t think he’s passed Beliveau, Harvey, and especially Richard? I mean he has definitely passed Richard. He’s arguably better than Hull, and by his career end, he might end up the top left winger of all time. Even Jagr, I mean I’m not hating on him being ahead of Ovechkin, 5 scoring titles is amazing, but so is 3 Harts and 3 Lindsays. I think it’s closer between the two.

No, no, and no. Why has he definitely passed Richard? Richard is one of the best playoff performers of all time. Ovechkin has a good playoff career, but nothing like Richard's. He was a 1st or 2nd team all star fourteen times in his career! His offensive numbers are staggering when you consider he played in a lower scoring era.

Do you believe that Richard is a better hockey player than Ovechkin?

Yes, for the reasons outlined above. Ovechkin is a bigger guy physically, but Richard was certainly not afraid of physical play. On the contrary. He has the edge in skating and team play. Goal scoring is pretty even, but like stated, Richard played in a lower scoring era and still put up impressive numbers.

 

[Neutrinos]

No, no, and no. Why has he definitely passed Richard? Richard is one of the best playoff performers of all time. Ovechkin has a good playoff career, but nothing like Richard's. He was a 1st or 2nd team all star fourteen times in his career! His offensive numbers are staggering when you consider he played in a lower scoring era.

Yes, for the reasons outlined above.

So, if you're the GM of the Seattle expansion team, and an 18 year old Ovechkin, and an 18 year old Richard are both available, you're drafting Richard?

 

[Neutrinos]

Yes, for the reasons outlined above.

The reasons outlined above were that he was the first player to score 50 goals in 50 games, and that he won 8 Stanley Cups in a 6-team league

How does that make him better than Ovechkin?

Joe Malone once scored 44 goals in 20 games, was he also better than Ovechkin?

 

[Sam Spade]

It depends on the criteria being used

I'd put him among the top 10 best players ever, but he's got a ways to go before being recognized as one of the greatest

What the what?

Top ten fastest players ever, heck you can say number one and I wouldn't care, but "players", really? Wow.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

So, if you're the GM of the Seattle expansion team, and an 18 year old Ovechkin, and an 18 year old Richard are both available, you're drafting Richard?

So, if you’re the GM do you take an 18 year old Gretzky or 18 year old McDavid?

The game is constantly evolving and players will continue to get better, however true greatness is measured by dominance against peers while playing in that era.

 

[GMR]

So, if you're the GM of the Seattle expansion team, and an 18 year old Ovechkin, and an 18 year old Richard are both available, you're drafting Richard?

Let's backtrack a little. Are we presuming both players were trained in the same era, with similar equipment, nutrition, etc.

Yes, I'd take Richard. What does Ovechkin do better than Richard? Skate? Score goals? Play defense? Play a physical game? Elevate his game in the playoffs? I have Richard as higher in all those categories. Yes, Ovechkin could still pass him presumably if he keeps scoring 40 goals per season until he overtakes Gretzky. He'll never match Richard in the postseason but I can see him finishing with a higher ranking overall.

 

[GMR]

The reasons outlined above were that he was the first player to score 50 goals in 50 games, and that he won 8 Stanley Cups in a 6-team league

How does that make him better than Ovechkin?

Joe Malone once scored 44 goals in 20 games, was he also better than Ovechkin?

Read the other stuff I wrote about Richard. His overall offensive consistency and impressive numbers in a era not known for big offensive numbers is nothing to be flippant about. He was a great skater. He upped his game when it counted most. He was one of the fiercest competitors in NHL history.

No, I don't have Joe Malone ranked above Ovechkin. Not enough longevity and he comes from an even harder era to rank.

Let me ask you a question. How come you have McDavid ranked as top 10 all time?

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Orr
4. Howe
5. Beliveau
6. Richard
7. Crosby
8. Ovechkin
9. Jagr
10. Hull

11. Harvey
12. Morenz
13. Lafleur
14. Hasek
15. Roy
16. Messier
17. Shore
18. Bourque
19. Lidstrom
20. Esposito/Mikita/Sawchuk

 

[Neutrinos]

So, if you’re the GM do you take an 18 year old Gretzky or 18 year old McDavid?

The game is constantly evolving and players will continue to get better, however true greatness is measured by dominance against peers while playing in that era.

Richard was a dominant scorer in a 6-team league made up primarily of Canadians at a time when Canada's population was half of what it is today

Ovechkin is a dominant scorer in a league made up from the best players from around the world

We're not talking about greatness though, we're talking about who is the better hockey player


I'd probably take McDavid

 

[Neutrinos]

Read the other stuff I wrote about Richard. His overall offensive consistency and impressive numbers in a era not known for big offensive numbers is nothing to be flippant about. He was a great skater. He upped his game when it counted most. He was one of the fiercest competitors in NHL history.

No, I don't have Joe Malone ranked above Ovechkin. Not enough longevity and he comes from an even harder era to rank.

Let me ask you a question. How come you have McDavid ranked as top 10 all time?

Because I've seen him play

I didn't need to watch Crosby play for a decade before knowing he was among the best ever

It was obvious with Crosby early in his career, and it's obvious with McDavid now

 

[GMR]

Because I've seen him play

I didn't need to watch Crosby play for a decade before knowing he was among the best to ever

It was obvious with Crosby, and it's obvious with McDavid

If McDavid retires tomorrow, he probably makes the Hall of Fame. However, he makes nobody's top 10 all time list. Not enough longevity or accolades. No postseason success of any kind. A couple of Art Ross trophies before 21 and being able to skate like the wind is impressive. However, all-time rank depends on talent, accolades, and longevity. He doesn't have the second or third of those categories. He's fast, great, and has an amazing future. He's the best in the world right now. If you're already putting him in your top 10 all-time ranking, then I have to question why you're even asking about Richard vs. Ovechkin. I don't have McDavid in my top 50 at this point.

 

[Neutrinos]

If McDavid retires tomorrow, he probably makes the Hall of Fame. However, he makes nobody's top 10 all time list. Not enough longevity or accolades. No postseason success of any kind. A couple of Art Ross trophies before 21 and being able to skate like the wind is impressive. However, all-time rank depends on talent, accolades, and longevity. He doesn't have the second or third of those categories. He's fast, great, and has an amazing future. He's the best in the world right now. If you're already putting him in your top 10 all-time ranking, then I have to question why you're even asking about Richard vs. Ovechkin. I don't have McDavid in my top 50 at this point.

Longevity has nothing to do with talent

I rank players based on which one I'd rather build a team around. That's it. That's my criteria

And using that criteria, McDavid is in my top 10

 

[GMR]

Longevity has nothing to do with talent

I rank players based on which one I'd rather build a team around. That's it. That's my criteria

And using that criteria, McDavid is in my top 10

I see. Is Lindros in your top 10? Or Fedorov?

 

[Vilica]

Read the other stuff I wrote about Richard. His overall offensive consistency and impressive numbers in a era not known for big offensive numbers is nothing to be flippant about. He was a great skater. He upped his game when it counted most. He was one of the fiercest competitors in NHL history.

For what it is worth, from 43-44 through 59-60, Montreal scored 3435 goals in 1100 games, or 3.12 goals per game. Coming into this year, Washington had scored 3367 goals in 1114 games, or 3.02 goals per game. So actually, Maurice Richard's Montreal teams were marginally higher-scoring than Alex Ovechkin's Washington teams. Yet Richard's per game numbers - 0.560/0.432/0.992 are lower than Ovechkin's per game numbers - 0.607/0.510/1.117.

 

[GreatGonzo]

No, no, and no. Why has he definitely passed Richard? Richard is one of the best playoff performers of all time. Ovechkin has a good playoff career, but nothing like Richard's. He was a 1st or 2nd team all star fourteen times in his career! His offensive numbers are staggering when you consider he played in a lower scoring era.

Yes, for the reasons outlined above. Ovechkin is a bigger guy physically, but Richard was certainly not afraid of physical play. On the contrary. He has the edge in skating and team play. Goal scoring is pretty even, but like stated, Richard played in a lower scoring era and still put up impressive numbers.

Richard also played on the Habs during their dynasty years. While Ovechkin has a superior regular season resume with playoff success.

Yes in an era with less competition. He also won his Hart in one of the weakest eras in hockey history due to the war. I’m not trying to say he wasn’t an all time great or one of the first of his kind, but in terms of peak, prime, and overall Dominance, it’s Ovechkin.

Given the era he played in with much less overall talent than Ovechkin, with less teams, and less games played, including the playoffs, sure Richards numbers are impressive given the time, but I would argue Ovechkins are clearly superior given HIS time.

Goal scoring even? How do you figure that? Ovechkin is arguably the best goal scorer of all time, he has lead the league in goals more times than any player and is on the verge of hitting 700. He also has Eight 50 or more goal seasons. Is Richards 50 in 50 really hold that much value compared to Ovechkin clear goal scoring dominance?

Ovi has also done all this in an era of hockey that is significantly much more tough to score. Better goalies, better defenses, he also has 3 Harts and 3 Lindsays and a scoring title.

I think you are putting way to much value on his playoffs and his 50 in 50, because Ovechkin has him beat in everything else.

 

[Mike8]

For what it is worth, from 43-44 through 59-60, Montreal scored 3435 goals in 1100 games, or 3.12 goals per game. Coming into this year, Washington had scored 3367 goals in 1114 games, or 3.02 goals per game. So actually, Maurice Richard's Montreal teams were marginally higher-scoring than Alex Ovechkin's Washington teams. Yet Richard's per game numbers - 0.560/0.432/0.992 are lower than Ovechkin's per game numbers - 0.607/0.510/1.117.

Why are you using Montreal and Washington-specific goals per game, rather than goals per game league-wide?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Let's backtrack a little. Are we presuming both players were trained in the same era, with similar equipment, nutrition, etc.

Yes, I'd take Richard. What does Ovechkin do better than Richard? Skate? Score goals? Play defense? Play a physical game? Elevate his game in the playoffs? I have Richard as higher in all those categories. Yes, Ovechkin could still pass him presumably if he keeps scoring 40 goals per season until he overtakes Gretzky. He'll never match Richard in the postseason but I can see him finishing with a higher ranking overall.

I still have no clue how you have Richards over Ovechkin in terms of goal scoring. That’s confusing.

and again Richards played on dynasty Hab teams. Let’s add that context, shall we? Out of 8 cups, Richards only led 3 of those cup teams in goals and none in points.

 

[gtrower]

Ovi is a one trick hockey pony the same way Cristiano Ronaldo is one trick soccer pony. They can only do everything necessary to score more than everybody else. Just coincidence that the “one trick” is the LITERAL PURPOSE OF THE GAME.