Ovechkin passes Crosby for 17th all-time in points

[Hockey Outsider]

And for the sake of completeness, to quote myself from another thread:

I agree that Crosby's 2016 Conn Smythe was weak. In my article ranking the Conn Smythe winners from the past 40 years I said "this is probably the weakest showing on the list".

On the other hand, Pittsburgh won due to a balanced team effort. There wasn't another player who was clearly more deserving. Someone had to win, and Crosby was arguably the best choice from an underwhelming group:

• Phil Kessel outscored Crosby 22-19. But a three point gap is small, and the only series where Kessel was clearly better was the 2nd round. Even though Crosby can be overrated defensively, he was still used in a much less sheltered way than Kessel, and got the tougher matchups. (I don't hear many people complaining that Ovechkin won the Smythe despite being outscored 32-27, so a three point difference isn't the trump card that some people claim).
• Matt Murray played well, but his save percentage was "only" 92.3%, which was much lower than what a goalie typically needs to win (the five previous winners were 94.6%, 94.0%, 92.0%, 94.5%, and 93.4%). And he missed three games, which didn't help.
• At the time, I don't recall Kris Letang being discussed as the potential Conn Smythe winner. He probably would have gotten my vote. He logged a ton of minutes in every situation (he was their #1 defenseman at ES and on the PP, and #3 on the PK). He wasn't flashy but was consistent series after series. Still, he wasn't nearly as good as Duncan Keith, who won the Smythe the year before (or Chris Pronger, who probably could have taken three Conn Smythes over the past decade, but somehow didn't win any).

I agree Crosby's 2016 Smythe was really weak by historical standards. But I wouldn't say it was undeserved, because that implies someone else deserved it more. There was no frontrunner, so the voters did the sentimental thing and gave it to the long-time captain.

 

[GrumpyKoala]

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Points > Goals

Lolol, no.

 

[Empoleon8771]

View attachment 640722

One thing Ovechkin and Crosby fans can agree on is that McDavid needs to actually have some team success before he beats out Crosby and Ovechkin.

2 Harts, 4 Art Rosses and 3 Pearsons don't beat out either trophy case between Crosby or Ovechkin.

 

[FreeBobbyFarnham]

Thread aged like milk (as expected).

 

[WiLBoY]

And OV wins none lol

 

[wetcoast]

Doesn’t matter what polls say. The numbers speak for themselves.


If there was a downvote button this post would be worthy.

literally.

 

[wetcoast]

One thing Ovechkin and Crosby fans can agree on is that McDavid needs to actually have some team success before he beats out Crosby and Ovechkin.

2 Harts, 4 Art Rosses and 3 Pearsons don't beat out either trophy case between Crosby or Ovechkin.

Last year in the playoffs kind of shattered that idea going forward regardless of team success.

The total insane domination of a 7,8,9,10 year regular season resume simply overcomes a lesser one even on a winning team at some point.

But I do think that alot of people give more focus on team success than they think they do.

 

[Riddum]

View attachment 640722

This. I'm a Crosby fan. I recognize Sid and Ovi's greatness but they're both a notch and a half or 2 below McDavid.

McDavid
- 4 Art Ross in the last 6 seasons (including an injury season)

Crosby
- 2 Art Ross in 17 years

Ovechkin
- 1 Art Ross in 17 Years

How can you even be in the conversation for best play ever with less than 3 Art Ross trophies? If McDavid can win 5 more, we'll have to put him in the conversation with Gretzky for best ever.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Lolol, no.

Lolol, absolutly

 

[Invalid cuz QoC]

Sid now has more points, by a very wide margin plus games in hand. Jinx thread, wrap it up. Bondra is better than both.

 

[Invalid cuz QoC]

All I know is Thursday Pens Vs Caps. There will be controller disconnects. Hopefully enough material for gifs from Both sides.

 

[tabness]

Forget it. Lol

I never "like" posts on HF (not that I even can for right now on the advice of my good friend Troll Stomper) because I work in product design in big tech and know how pernicious psychologically it can be, but let me tell you man, I freaking like this post, I don't even know what you originally said lol

Everyone else please...

 

[Shrimper]

Crosby 3 points ahead of Ovie

Will he ever recover from this chasm?

 

[BallardEra]

Everyone else please...

View attachment 641098

Loathed this game when it first came out but absolutely adore it today.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

I never "like" posts on HF (not that I even can for right now on the advice of my good friend Troll Stomper) because I work in product design in big tech and know how pernicious psychologically it can be, but let me tell you man, I freaking like this post, I don't even know what you originally said lol

Everyone else please...

View attachment 641098

I have to remind myself of this every now and then lol.

No combination of words will make certain people understand how absolutely ridiculous their statements are and they will be having this argument for the rest of their lives lol, sometimes ya just gotta stay disengaged, but the absurdity almost pulls me in.

 

[tfwnogf]

One thing Ovechkin and Crosby fans can agree on is that McDavid needs to actually have some team success before he beats out Crosby and Ovechkin.

2 Harts, 4 Art Rosses and 3 Pearsons don't beat out either trophy case between Crosby or Ovechkin.

I think Ovechkin fans have some sympathy considering that not winning a cup was the main argument brought up by Crosby fans for years. Not a team player, not a winner, goal compiler, etc.

Also not fair to compare McDavid's trophy case to current Crosby/Ovechkin. Compare his to Crosby and Ovechkin at the same age and the comparison becomes a lot more competitive.

 

[Midnight Judges]

And for the sake of completeness, to quote myself from another thread:

I agree that Crosby's 2016 Conn Smythe was weak. In my article ranking the Conn Smythe winners from the past 40 years I said "this is probably the weakest showing on the list".

On the other hand, Pittsburgh won due to a balanced team effort. There wasn't another player who was clearly more deserving. Someone had to win, and Crosby was arguably the best choice from an underwhelming group:

• Phil Kessel outscored Crosby 22-19. But a three point gap is small, and the only series where Kessel was clearly better was the 2nd round. Even though Crosby can be overrated defensively, he was still used in a much less sheltered way than Kessel, and got the tougher matchups. (I don't hear many people complaining that Ovechkin won the Smythe despite being outscored 32-27, so a three point difference isn't the trump card that some people claim).
• Matt Murray played well, but his save percentage was "only" 92.3%, which was much lower than what a goalie typically needs to win (the five previous winners were 94.6%, 94.0%, 92.0%, 94.5%, and 93.4%). And he missed three games, which didn't help.
• At the time, I don't recall Kris Letang being discussed as the potential Conn Smythe winner. He probably would have gotten my vote. He logged a ton of minutes in every situation (he was their #1 defenseman at ES and on the PP, and #3 on the PK). He wasn't flashy but was consistent series after series. Still, he wasn't nearly as good as Duncan Keith, who won the Smythe the year before (or Chris Pronger, who probably could have taken three Conn Smythes over the past decade, but somehow didn't win any).

I agree Crosby's 2016 Smythe was really weak by historical standards. But I wouldn't say it was undeserved, because that implies someone else deserved it more. There was no frontrunner, so the voters did the sentimental thing and gave it to the long-time captain.

Not a single mention of the player who actually deserved the 2016 Conn Smythe in your post.

You know, the player who produced at a 103 point / 34 goal pace while contributing more defensively than Crosby - who produced at a 65 point / 21 goal pace.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Not a single mention of the player who actually deserved the 2016 Conn Smythe in your post.

You know, the player who produced at a 103 point / 34 goal pace while contributing more defensively than Crosby - who produced at a 65 point / 21 goal pace.

And who would that be? Logan Couture?

You realize that Couture was not dominant enough to justify a player on the LOSING team winning the Smythe? Heck, you are probably the only person ever to bring him up in those discussions.

Just let it go man.

 

[Midnight Judges]

And who would that be? Logan Couture?

You realize that Couture was not dominant enough to justify a player on the LOSING team winning the Smythe? Heck, you are probably the only person ever to bring him up in those discussions.

Just let it go man.

Couture produced at a 103 point / 34 goal pace while contributing more defensively than Crosby.

Crosby produced at a 65 point / 21 goal pace.

That is an enormous difference.

Here are the 2014 points leaders. Crosby was the leader with 104 points and 36 goals - nearly identical to Couture's 2016 playoff pace. By all means, pick one of the 65 ish point players and make the case that they were better than Crosby - because that is equivalent to what you are doing here. Jordan Eberle? Ryan O'Reilly? Bryan Little?

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

 

[Rodgerwilco]

And who would that be? Logan Couture?

You realize that Couture was not dominant enough to justify a player on the LOSING team winning the Smythe? Heck, you are probably the only person ever to bring him up in those discussions.

Just let it go man.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone hang on to such a misguided argument so hard, Idt I've ever heard of someone suggesting Couture for CS, let alone using an 82 game 'pace' applied to playoff scoring lol

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Couture produced at a 103 point / 34 goal pace while contributing more defensively than Crosby.

Crosby produced at a 65 point / 21 goal pace.

That is an enormous difference.

Here are the 2014 points leaders. Crosby was the leader with 104 points and 36 goals - nearly identical to Couture's 2016 playoff pace. By all means, pick one of the 65 ish point players and make the case that they were better than Crosby - because that is equivalent to what you are doing here. Jordan Eberle? Ryan O'Reilly? Bryan Little?

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

I guess you attribute a lot of value to Crosby's 2010-11 season then

 

[Empoleon8771]

Couture produced at a 103 point / 34 goal pace while contributing more defensively than Crosby.

Crosby produced at a 65 point / 21 goal pace.

That is an enormous difference.

Here are the 2014 points leaders. Crosby was the leader with 104 points and 36 goals - nearly identical to Couture's 2016 playoff pace. By all means, pick one of the 65 ish point players and make the case that they were better than Crosby - because that is equivalent to what you are doing here. Jordan Eberle? Ryan O'Reilly? Bryan Little?

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

The Conn Smythe has been awarded 54 times. A forward on the losing team has won it a grand total of once (Reggie Leach, who set the all-time record for goals, and led his team in scoring by 50%). And it's never happened in the four-round era. (In the 37 times it's been awarded in the four-round era, it's gone to a player on the losing team twice - both times goalies).

There are plenty of instances where the leading scorer was on the losing team, and didn't win the Conn Smythe. Going back to 1980 (the start of the four-round era), this happened in 1983, 1986, 1993, 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2007, 2010, 2016, and 2022 (plus a couple of years where there were ties, which I'm not going to bother with).

I've stated numerous times that Crosby's 2016 Conn Smythe was one of the weakest in NHL history, at least going back to 1980. But it isn't unusual that the voters didn't give it to a forward on the losing team. Couture didn't have a historic performance (unless someone wants to argue that Daniel Briere had a historic performance a few years earlier), so he had no case for winning the Smythe.

Just going to keep quoting this post until you stop bringing up Couture.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Not a single mention of the player who actually deserved the 2016 Conn Smythe in your post.

You know, the player who produced at a 103 point / 34 goal pace while contributing more defensively than Crosby - who produced at a 65 point / 21 goal pace.

It's already been addressed - see post #224.

Almost all Conn Smythe winners were from the winning team (91%). That goes up to 95% if we're looking at the four-round era. One forward, in more than half a century of voting, has won the Conn Smythe as a forward on the losing team. You might not agree, but your dispute is with decades of voting precedent, not with me.

I have no problem saying that Logan Couture played better than Crosby (or Letang, or Kessel, or Murray) in 2016. But he didn't have a historical playoff run (like Reggie Leach in 1976, or JG Gigure in 2003). So he wasn't seriously considered for the Conn Smythe. No different than McDavid's 33 point run last year, or Briere's 30 points in 2010, or Gretzky's 40 points in 1993 (or 38 points in 1983), etc.

(Ironically, Logan Couture reached 30 points because he racked up a lot of secondary assists. Back those out, and his scoring lead over Kessel and Crosby shrinks. It's funny how Crosby gets criticized for his secondary assists, but when another player gets twice as many, it's used to demonstrate his offensive superiority).

 

[Midnight Judges]

The Conn Smythe has been awarded 54 times. A forward on the losing team has won it a grand total of once (Reggie Leach, who set the all-time record for goals, and led his team in scoring by 50%). And it's never happened in the four-round era. (In the 37 times it's been awarded in the four-round era, it's gone to a player on the losing team twice - both times goalies).

There are plenty of instances where the leading scorer was on the losing team, and didn't win the Conn Smythe. Going back to 1980 (the start of the four-round era), this happened in 1983, 1986, 1993, 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2007, 2010, 2016, and 2022 (plus a couple of years where there were ties, which I'm not going to bother with).

I've stated numerous times that Crosby's 2016 Conn Smythe was one of the weakest in NHL history, at least going back to 1980. But it isn't unusual that the voters didn't give it to a forward on the losing team. Couture didn't have a historic performance (unless someone wants to argue that Daniel Briere had a historic performance a few years earlier), so he had no case for winning the Smythe.

Alright I'll address this post because I think the rationale is not great.

Couture was the most valuable player. That is the very definition of the award. There is no case what-so-ever that a player producing at a 65 point / 21 goal pace is more valuable than a player who is producing at a 103 point / 34 goal pace while also contributing more defensively. There are lots of fans who think team success and individual player value coincide almost invariably. This is synonymous with not understanding the game. I think you know that.

I understand that the voters don't go this way often, but it isn't never, nor is that part of the definition of the trophy, and so this statement: "...he had no case for winning the Smythe" is unfounded.

There is definitely a case. It is better than Crosby's by a wide margin IMO.

Regardless, let's review the history of each time a player won without leading the playoffs in points:

In most cases it was a goalie or defenseman - players who, unlike Crosby - contribute primarily on the defensive side of things. It is perfectly logical not to rate these players on points when point accumulation isn't their primary responsibility.

And then among the forwards who won the CS despite the points leader in the playoffs playing for a losing team, you really just have three other instances:

Toews, who was 3% behind in points and 71% behind in goals (while also contributing quite a bit on the PK while Briere didn't PK)
Lemieux, who was 50% behind in points but had 85% more goals the Fedorov. Fedorov was notoriously great at defense.
Nieuwendyk, who was 14% behind in points, but had 38% more goals than Forsberg.

I don't see how those support Crosby being 58% behind in points while also being 67% behind the same guy in goals, while also contributing less defensively than that guy.

Boy that was an awful lot of digging just to find out that none of this remotely supports Crosby's Conn Smythe and that Crosby's award is still an outlier (gift). This really just highlights his outlier status even more.

It's already been addressed - see post #224.

Almost all Conn Smythe winners were from the winning team (91%). That goes up to 95% if we're looking at the four-round era. One forward, in more than half a century of voting, has won the Conn Smythe as a forward on the losing team. You might not agree, but your dispute is with decades of voting precedent, not with me.

I think Crosby's 2016 Conn Smythe very clearly belonged in that 9% - which would make it 10% or 12% or something if it was factored in to the sample. I mean yeah, the massive difference of contribution from Couture down to Crosby was very likely in the top 10% of times when a losing player outplayed a player from the winning team.

Can you name another time when a losing player had such a huge margin in goals and points while also contributing more defensively over the CS winner?