HF Habs: Out of Town Thread: Off-Season Edition

[DAChampion]

They are never in the conversation....until they are. It's not because we don't have it, that pros who are suppose to know best don't. It's not always for the best though. Thomas Hickey was never in the conversation for top 5. And he was. Reason why we were able to get McDonagh. But then, Carey Price wasn't seen as top 5 either etc.

Galchenyuk was not a drafting failure, he was a development failure.

 

[417]

Galchenyuk was not a drafting failure, he was a development failure.

I don't think he was either of those things…he just didn't prioritize his own career.

It had nothing to do with making the Habs at 19 years old.

I mean sure the coaching staff could have done a better job of bringing him along but you guys think they didn't all know all the mess he was getting into off the ice?

He did not take his job as a professional hockey player seriously and he surrounded himself with “yes people” who enabled his behaviour.

It's 100% on him.

 

[DAChampion]

I don't think he was either of those things…he just didn't prioritize his own career.

It had nothing to do with making the Habs at 19 years old.

I mean sure the coaching staff could have done a better job of bringing him along but you guys think they didn't all know all the mess he was getting into off the ice?

He did not take his job as a professional hockey player seriously and he surrounded himself with “yes people” who enabled his behaviour.

It's 100% on him.

It is but the team should have more realistic expectations 18 year olds. It would take a lot of maturity to handle celebrity messiah status at that age. I certainly would not have been able to handle it, would you have?

An extra year or really two years in junior would have helped Galchenyuk nature in an environment where his social status was more age appropriate. He would have gone to another WJCs, had a memorial cup run, been required to handle the defensive zone, maybe learned to take a faceoff, etc.

He was also one of the most rushed players in NHL history. He had missed an entire year of development due to a leg injury. He didn't even dominate the OHL or the WJCs before joining the Habs.

 

[salbutera]

no, it gets altered by a trusted mentor(s)... that can come in many forms, as it is not a cliche that it takes a village to raise a child.

parents, siblings, other family members, agents, coaches, spiritual advisors, older peers... each successful individual will have a different mix of influential people in their lives that helped them in their growth... just as each catastrophe has a toxic influence and/or complete lack of effective support system in it's wake.

the myth of the individual success story achieved by one's own efforts alone is peddled by those too arrogant or too cowardly to acknowledge the privileges and support they've enjoyed along the way.

When Galchenyuk played his first NHL game he was 19, not a child. Also his family was adamant he live with his parents & sister… which he did, so he was in conceivably protected surroundings in Mtl.

This didn’t start overnight after being selected by Habs..there are deeper family issues here

He was simply not serious about his career, wouldn’t be shocked to find out one day he never even wanted to be a pro hockey player but did it to please his father like Daigle and many others

 

[417]

It is but the team should have more realistic expectations 18 year olds. It would take a lot of maturity to handle celebrity messiah status at that age. I certainly would not have been able to handle it, would you have?

He had this “messiah” status before he was even drafted by the Habs. The team itself did everything they could to help him off the ice, they thought having his dad there with with would provide the right environment for him but that didn't do anything but make it worse.

An extra year or really two years in junior would have helped Galchenyuk nature in an environment where his social status was more age appropriate. He would have gone to another WJCs, had a memorial cup run, been required to handle the defensive zone, maybe learned to take a faceoff, etc.

Again, he wasn't an angel in junior either, an extra year or two in junior would have probably accelerated his downward spiral.

He was also one of the most rushed players in NHL history. He had missed an entire year of development due to a leg injury. He didn't even dominate the OHL or the WJCs before joining the Habs.

He played 33 games in the OHL following his draft year and he averaged almost 2PPG.

There was no point leaving him in the OHL for another season, nevermind two.

 

[DAChampion]

He had this “messiah” status before he was even drafted by the Habs. The team itself did everything they could to help him off the ice, they thought having his dad there with with would provide the right environment for him but that didn't do anything but make it worse.

Again, he wasn't an angel in junior either, an extra year or two in junior would have probably accelerated his downward spiral.

He played 33 games in the OHL following his draft year and he averaged almost 2PPG.

There was no point leaving him in the OHL for another season, nevermind two.

I remember Galchenyuk's OHL stats were discussed here at the time, they were inflated by production against really bad teams. The fact is he couldn't even play center in the OHL.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

I'm guessing he got permission to leave "to make a living". He got a pretty good lawyer after all, since he basically got nothing for a DUI+Hit-and-run+everything in the video.

Screw making a living. The only way he should have got to leave is if he is NEVER allowed to return.

 

[417]

I remember Galchenyuk's OHL stats were discussed here at the time, they were inflated by production against really bad teams. The fact is he couldn't even play center in the OHL.

Be that as it may…the issue with Galchenyuk was less about his strengths/weaknesses on the ice.

It was that he was entitled, spoiled, protected, wanna be gangster, off the ice. It didn't matter if he would have spent more time in the CHL and then AHL.

He didn't take his job as a professional hockey player seriously. He lived in delusion, that video perfectly illustrates it.

 

[Tyson]

Be that as it may…the issue with Galchenyuk was less about his strengths/weaknesses on the ice.

It was that he was entitled, spoiled, protected, wanna be gangster, off the ice. It didn't matter if he would have spent more time in the CHL and then AHL.

He didn't take his job as a professional hockey player seriously. He lived in delusion, that video perfectly illustrates it.

He is in the KHL where 1st round busts end up.

 

[digmor crusher]

Whenever a highly rated top draft prospect fails there's always the same gang who blames the team for not developing him. In most cases that is not the case, some players just don't have it between the ears to succeed as a top player. Gally is a perfect example of this.

 

[salbutera]

Be that as it may…the issue with Galchenyuk was less about his strengths/weaknesses on the ice.

It was that he was entitled, spoiled, protected, wanna be gangster, off the ice. It didn't matter if he would have spent more time in the CHL and then AHL.

He didn't take his job as a professional hockey player seriously. He lived in delusion, that video perfectly illustrates it.

No no no u don’t get it Therrien & MB turned him into a gangsta…

 

[Miller Time]

When Galchenyuk played his first NHL game he was 19, not a child. Also his family was adamant he live with his parents & sister… which he did, so he was in conceivably protected surroundings in Mtl.

This didn’t start overnight after being selected by Habs..there are deeper family issues here

He was simply not serious about his career, wouldn’t be shocked to find out one day he never even wanted to be a pro hockey player but did it to please his father like Daigle and many others

- iirc he suffered a major knee injury the year he was drafted... Not sure what your experience is with elite athletes, but to recover from that kind of setback and return to an elite level requires considerable diligence in rehab. To suggest that he wasn't "serious about his career" is an exaggeration. Play hard party hard is far more common than fans appreciate.

- family isn't by default "protective". It can be as or more damaging than no family

- not interested in arguing semantics... 19 is still "teen", but regardless, physical and brain maturation is still in a rapid state of change at that age... And until 23-24-25... The impact of external influences on development are most prominent while the brains plasticity is still very active. Those influences don't stop at that age, we as human beings remain adaptable until we die, just the degree & ease of influence that changes/reduces

Bottom line... Success or failure is never just a matter of individual merit or blame. Those types of narratives have no grounding in brain & behavior science (nor the wisdom of indigenous ways of knowing).

He's the product of his unique path, one that his choices & behaviors certainly impacted, as did those of the people around him. Unfortunately for him, the professional organization that he stepped into lacked competence... A better environment may not have been enough to help him take a better path, but the toxic one he lived through certainly didn't help.

 

[Miller Time]

Whenever a highly rated top draft prospect fails there's always the same gang who blames the team for not developing him. In most cases that is not the case, some players just don't have it between the ears to succeed as a top player. Gally is a perfect example of this.

There are 5 players from his draft year that played more NHL games than he has...

4 that scored more points...

"Success" is a relative term, of course, but by those pretty telling metrics one might suggest that of all the draft eligible players of his age, he's had one of the most successful careers, despite how it's devolved... No?

 

[the valiant effort]

Forsberg ran the table at #3 on Bobby Mac’s 2012 lists. The Hockey News and Red Line’s final reports put him at 2.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Forsberg ran the table at #3 on Bobby Mac’s 2012 lists. The Hockey News and Red Line’s final reports put him at 2.

Who ran the table as 1 and 2?

So we should inherently trust the same group of scouts that put two busts at 1 and 2 because they had 3 right?

Galchenyuk was not a reach at 3 and almost went 2 to CBJ.

 

[the valiant effort]

Who ran the table as 1 and 2?

So we should inherently trust the same group of scouts that put two busts at 1 and 2 because they had 3 right?

Galchenyuk was not a reach at 3 and almost went 2 to CBJ.

There were a couple of posts remarking Forsberg was not on the top 3 radar.

EDIT: as for Galchenyuk, his lost draft season very clearly threw a lot of scouts for a loop because when he showed up to the post-lockout Habs camp, it was very clear that "classic centre", "cerebral", and "two-way" were extraordinarily incorrect descriptors. None of that negates the damage Bergevin/Therrien did to him.

 

[WeThreeKings]

There were a couple of posts remarking Forsberg was not on the top 3 radar.

Oh, I missed them.

Yeah, he was on the radar, not sure why he fell as far as he did.. truly a mystery.

 

[Whitesnake]

Galchenyuk was not a drafting failure, he was a development failure.

As I said in this very thread, he was another development failure. BUT....as much as drafting failure he was, tough to determine. The kid had missed his entire D-1 season. My only and always issue with it is that we went needs. It could have worked out though if developed better.

Let,s call Timmins and ask him today who he would have picked if he would have had the chance to do so....

That scout was pretty good.....having Teravainen and Forsberg that high. And having Rielly ahead of Murray. Though that Reinhart description though....ouch....

Profiling the NHL's 2012 draft class: The Top 10

Part 1 of a compilation of scouting reports and analysis of the first round picks

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[NotProkofievian]

Oh, I missed them.

Yeah, he was on the radar, not sure why he fell as far as he did.. truly a mystery.

He was top 3 going into the season, but then had a very meh draft season. Didn't register a point until the new year IIRC.

 

[WeThreeKings]

He was top 3 going into the season, but then had a very meh draft season. Didn't register a point until the new year IIRC.

Sweden draft eligible production..

Filip Forsberg and Lucas Raymond
vs.
Jacob Olofsson and Filip Hallander.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Sweden draft eligible production..

Filip Forsberg and Lucas Raymond
vs.
Jacob Olofsson and Filip Hallander.

Production isn't a perfect metric, but then again nothing is. Not every prospect who doesn't score is Raymond and Forsberg, and not every prospect who scores is Olofsson and Hållander. If you produce more, there's a better chance that you're a player, and if you produce less, there's less of a chance.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Production isn't a perfect metric, but then again nothing is. Not every prospect who doesn't score is Raymond and Forsberg, and not every prospect who scores is Olofsson and Hållander. If you produce more, there's a better chance that you're a player, and if you produce less, there's less of a chance.

Sweden just has always been a tough one for me on the production front.. but then again, I think every league has their outliers on both sides. That being said, Olofsson and Hallander had games that I thought would at least get them into the NHL if the offense didn't come around and that ended up being very wrong too.

I'm a shitty scout like the rest of them, hang my hat on the times I was right and forget all the times I was horrible.

 

[Sorinth]

Whenever a highly rated top draft prospect fails there's always the same gang who blames the team for not developing him. In most cases that is not the case, some players just don't have it between the ears to succeed as a top player. Gally is a perfect example of this.

Galchenyuk is the perfect example of how a bad coach can create lasting problems that stick with that player even after they leave that environment. Louis Leblanc is another.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Sweden just has always been a tough one for me on the production front.. but then again, I think every league has their outliers on both sides. That being said, Olofsson and Hallander had games that I thought would at least get them into the NHL if the offense didn't come around and that ended up being very wrong too.

I'm a shitty scout like the rest of them, hang my hat on the times I was right and forget all the times I was horrible.

Olofsson in particular is a guy who you probably wouldn't have drafted if you met him. As soon as I saw his post draft interview I thought ''ain't no way fam.'' It was a Beaulieu moment for me lol. What I wonder is what our swedish scout saw in a guy with the personality of an overcooked spaghetto.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Olofsson in particular is a guy who you probably wouldn't have drafted if you met him. As soon as I saw his post draft interview I thought ''ain't no way fam.'' It was a Beaulieu moment for me lol. What I wonder is what our swedish scout saw in a guy with the personality of an overcooked spaghetto.

Gotta go Spaghettini at least.