McKenzie: Oilers in on Barrie? (Part II)

[AslanRH]

Well he has opted for arbitration and his agent is the same one that ROR had and we all know how much fun those negotiations were. Maybe I'm reading too much into things? IIRC media types have also said that he maybe dealt which could just be speculation or it could have some weight behind it.

To be honest, Barrie filing is a better sign than anything that he wants to remain with the Avalanche. He is giving the Avs much more control than had he not. Avs can now choose not only the term, but also not be worried about offer sheets. Also, it allows the Avs to keep their 1 club elected option for the next deal be it in 1 year or 2.

As for the trade possibility, I think there are calls coming in to Sakic more than calls going out. That should be expected considering the Avs history of moving players if they demand too much money, and the fact that MacKinnon had not been re-signed yet.

I imagine now that the Avs have a better idea of the money available, Barrie will be signed either to a long term deal or another bridge within the next couple weeks. The Avs will probably give favor to Barrie's choice in term as long as the AAV is reasonable.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

I would personally give him a two year bridge (5 mill AAV for 2 years). 6 mill for 7 years is his open market (UFA) level deal. I would leverage for a lesser AAV if its long term. Not too late to offer him the 6x7 (or whatever is the equivalent at that cap level) in 2 years because Duchene is not up for UFA until 2019.

I want the flexibility to go for UFA signing next year to support the team. Next year, the Avs will have all the core free agents signed (5 mill for Barrie, 1.5 for Grigorenko), and have ~19 mill in cap space. The extra million is a big difference in a hard cap world.

IMO if he is a tough player to lock up it'd be best to just give him a fair deal now and count him as a part of your core for the next 5+ years instead of trying to save a couple of million and then being forced into a ROR type of a trade. Guys like Barrie are not dime a dozen and outside of the top tier of top pairing defensemen that play a two way game he is in the top tier of offensive D. Just my $0.02, not saying that my way is right or anything.

To be honest, Barrie filing is a better sign than anything that he wants to remain with the Avalanche. He is giving the Avs much more control than had he not. Avs can now choose not only the term, but also not be worried about offer sheets. Also, it allows the Avs to keep their 1 club elected option for the next deal be it in 1 year or 2.

As for the trade possibility, I think there are calls coming in to Sakic more than calls going out. That should be expected considering the Avs history of moving players if they demand too much money, and the fact that MacKinnon had not been re-signed yet.

I imagine now that the Avs have a better idea of the money available, Barrie will be signed either to a long term deal or another bridge within the next couple weeks. The Avs will probably give favor to Barrie's choice in term as long as the AAV is reasonable.

IMO filing for arbitration more often than not is not a good thing. Here's why:

1) It means that the parties are so far apart that at least one side of the negotiations has little faith that a deal can be bridged without outside intervention.

2) It can lead to bad blood especially if the player feels that his ask is fair and that he is being lowballed.

3) It may mean that the player is trying to push his trade value down to facilitate a trade.

4) Bad blood most definitely can come out of an arbitration hearing because you basically hear your boss(es) trying to run your game through the mud.

FWIW if I were Sakic I would go long term on Barrie. EJ and Barrie are a solid 1-2 punch on the right side.

 

[Goulet17]

I thought this was interesting. Oilers blogger on Barrie and his RFA/UFA status (3 years of RFA status remaining) and the likely AAV targets on his new deal.

http://becauseoilers.blogspot.com/2016/05/if-oilers-get-tyson-barrie-how-big.html

 

[strictlyrandy]

I thought this was interesting. Oilers blogger on Barrie and his RFA/UFA status (3 years of RFA status remaining) and the likely AAV targets on his new deal.

http://becauseoilers.blogspot.com/2016/05/if-oilers-get-tyson-barrie-how-big.html

The opinions in that piece are hilarious. It's like people have no clue who Barrie is outside of the stats they see. It's also funny that they think Avs get hosed in trades (they really don't).

 

[FightingIrish17]

Not sure the Oilers should or would offer up RNH. Barrie is going to win big at arbitration, if Colorado is okay with that, then great. But if they are looking to move him because of salary issues, then Edmonton has leverage (for the first time ever lol). I don't see a deal getting done unless Avs management actually does think low of him and/or wants to move him. I think the best Edmonton will offer is a package around the 2017 1st (likely top 5 protected) +. But again, Barrie won't move unless the "rumours" are right.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Not sure the Oilers should or would offer up RNH. Barrie is going to win big at arbitration, if Colorado is okay with that, then great. But if they are looking to move him because of salary issues, then Edmonton has leverage (for the first time ever lol). I don't see a deal getting done unless Avs management actually does think low of him and/or wants to move him. I think the best Edmonton will offer is a package around the 2017 1st (likely top 5 protected) +. But again, Barrie won't move unless the "rumours" are right.

I'd think that they'd need a good piece or likely two on top of our pick, not RNH good but something usable with some value.

 

[TheNumber4]

I thought this was interesting. Oilers blogger on Barrie and his RFA/UFA status (3 years of RFA status remaining) and the likely AAV targets on his new deal.

http://becauseoilers.blogspot.com/2016/05/if-oilers-get-tyson-barrie-how-big.html

I stopped reading halfway when I realized he spent half the blog post explaining mistakes he's done in his reporting because he didn't put in enough of his own research. What kind of blogger edits his articles as he goes along and as people correct him?

 

[Iracundia]

But if they are looking to move him because of salary issues, then Edmonton has leverage

I know more than one team would be interested in Barrie if he is ever put on the Market

 

[AslanRH]

IMO if he is a tough player to lock up it'd be best to just give him a fair deal now and count him as a part of your core for the next 5+ years instead of trying to save a couple of million and then being forced into a ROR type of a trade. Guys like Barrie are not dime a dozen and outside of the top tier of top pairing defensemen that play a two way game he is in the top tier of offensive D. Just my $0.02, not saying that my way is right or anything.



IMO filing for arbitration more often than not is not a good thing. Here's why:

1) It means that the parties are so far apart that at least one side of the negotiations has little faith that a deal can be bridged without outside intervention.

2) It can lead to bad blood especially if the player feels that his ask is fair and that he is being lowballed.

3) It may mean that the player is trying to push his trade value down to facilitate a trade.

4) Bad blood most definitely can come out of an arbitration hearing because you basically hear your boss(es) trying to run your game through the mud.

FWIW if I were Sakic I would go long term on Barrie. EJ and Barrie are a solid 1-2 punch on the right side.

Barrie filed and not the team. It is unlikely that Barrie would file if he thought he was assured of making far more money than the Avs offered. Demand for a player like him is close to an all time high in the league, and surely as time wore on, he would receive (or sign) an offer sheet as ROR did.

Sakic didn't let ROR go to arbitration, and he is less likely to let Barrie. Bridge or long term, I have little doubt it will be resolved soon.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Barrie filed and not the team. It is unlikely that Barrie would file if he thought he was assured of making far more money than the Avs offered. Demand for a player like him is close to an all time high in the league, and surely as time wore on, he would receive (or sign) an offer sheet as ROR did.

Sakic didn't let ROR go to arbitration, and he is less likely to let Barrie. Bridge or long term, I have little doubt it will be resolved soon.

On the flip side maybe no team that he wants to go to would give up the compensation necessary to get him in terms of cap space and draft picks? Colorado would have to match anything that paid less than 2 1st round picks IMO. IF he wants to be moved getting OS'd at an amount that Colorado wants to match = him staying in Colorado for at least another season and possibly longer. If he wants to be there then no big deal, if he doesn't then by signing the OS he could be shooting himself in the foot.

 

[Avsblitzkrieg]

On the flip side maybe no team that he wants to go to would give up the compensation necessary to get him in terms of cap space and draft picks? Colorado would have to match anything that paid less than 2 1st round picks IMO. IF he wants to be moved getting OS'd at an amount that Colorado wants to match = him staying in Colorado for at least another season and possibly longer. If he wants to be there then no big deal, if he doesn't then by signing the OS he could be shooting himself in the foot.

he cannot take a OS.

 

[Avsblitzkrieg]

I'd think that they'd need a good piece or likely two on top of our pick, not RNH good but something usable with some value.

ironically, Edmonton set the market for D-men. Gross overpayment is what it's gonna take. With 3RFA years left. Colorado is in good position to wait it out if need be. We will not accept low ball or even fair market value. Gross over payment. Our system is pretty stocked with center depth and up and comers.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Even before the arbitration filing was made, an OS wasn't plausible because the value of the compensation was going to be less than what COL could get in a trade for Barrie.

Colorado would have just matched and traded Barrie next year for more than the OS.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

IMO if he is a tough player to lock up it'd be best to just give him a fair deal now and count him as a part of your core for the next 5+ years instead of trying to save a couple of million and then being forced into a ROR type of a trade. Guys like Barrie are not dime a dozen and outside of the top tier of top pairing defensemen that play a two way game he is in the top tier of offensive D. Just my $0.02, not saying that my way is right or anything.

I don't see him as that tough player to lock up, at least not any tougher than the other big name RFAs still unsigned. I think he is looking for a long term open market contract, but given his RFA status and the lack of an offersheet (from a team he wants to sign with), means the Avs have the leverage. Now if Barrie had managed to get an offersheet like the one ROR got, a short term backloaded one with a high QO, that would move the advantage to his court. The problem is that OS is very difficult for any party to want to offer, because it gives the players a huge advantage in any future negotiations. OS are rare in the first place, but the predatory types are even harder to set up.

Anywho for now, Barrie is nothing more than any other arbitration eligible RFA, the Avs should be the patient party, and spend their time locking up MacKinnon (which was their focus this offseason).

 

[danielpalfredsson]

IMO if he is a tough player to lock up it'd be best to just give him a fair deal now and count him as a part of your core for the next 5+ years instead of trying to save a couple of million and then being forced into a ROR type of a trade. Guys like Barrie are not dime a dozen and outside of the top tier of top pairing defensemen that play a two way game he is in the top tier of offensive D. Just my $0.02, not saying that my way is right or anything.



IMO filing for arbitration more often than not is not a good thing. Here's why:

1) It means that the parties are so far apart that at least one side of the negotiations has little faith that a deal can be bridged without outside intervention.

2) It can lead to bad blood especially if the player feels that his ask is fair and that he is being lowballed.

3) It may mean that the player is trying to push his trade value down to facilitate a trade.

4) Bad blood most definitely can come out of an arbitration hearing because you basically hear your boss(es) trying to run your game through the mud.

FWIW if I were Sakic I would go long term on Barrie. EJ and Barrie are a solid 1-2 punch on the right side.

There's a big difference between filing for arbitration and going for arbitration. Lots of players will file as a safety net if their QO is significantly lower than what they could expect from an arbitration case. Every year a majority of players who file for arbitration never make it to arbitration because they eventually come to terms with their team.

The reason players/teams file is because there is a deadline. If Barrie doesn't file then he risks having to either sit out the season or take a salary determined by his previous QO.

 

[tucker3434]

IMO if he is a tough player to lock up it'd be best to just give him a fair deal now and count him as a part of your core for the next 5+ years instead of trying to save a couple of million and then being forced into a ROR type of a trade. Guys like Barrie are not dime a dozen and outside of the top tier of top pairing defensemen that play a two way game he is in the top tier of offensive D. Just my $0.02, not saying that my way is right or anything.



IMO filing for arbitration more often than not is not a good thing. Here's why:

1) It means that the parties are so far apart that at least one side of the negotiations has little faith that a deal can be bridged without outside intervention.

2) It can lead to bad blood especially if the player feels that his ask is fair and that he is being lowballed.

3) It may mean that the player is trying to push his trade value down to facilitate a trade.

4) Bad blood most definitely can come out of an arbitration hearing because you basically hear your boss(es) trying to run your game through the mud.

FWIW if I were Sakic I would go long term on Barrie. EJ and Barrie are a solid 1-2 punch on the right side.

Filing doesn't mean anything. Going to arb is bad.

 

[Freudian]

Players file for arbitration for two reasons mainly. First it sets a date where the team normally has to put it's best offer on the table. It's a pressure point. Secondly, it guarantees the player is under contract the next season and you avoid it dragging on with the player missing camp.

Twenty players file for it every summer. It doesn't mean there is a big problem.

Barrie might be hard to sign, given who is representing him. We'll see. Avs won't be rushed into anything. They hung on to Ryan O'Reilly for a whole season after it was obvious they had to trade him. So any GM that figures they will just lowball Avs and Avs will be forced to move Barrie will probably waste their time. Avs can hang on to Barrie for two seasons before they have to move him.

 

[McMetal]

There is zero pressure on Colorado to move Barrie. He's an RFA who will get fair value in arbitration (4.5-5.5m in all likelihood). What possible motivation could a team with so few quality defensemen trade such a player?

 

[Mr Positive]

There is zero pressure on Colorado to move Barrie. He's an RFA who will get fair value in arbitration (4.5-5.5m in all likelihood). What possible motivation could a team with so few quality defensemen trade such a player?

not to totally derail this thread, but what is the basis for that arbitration award? I looked up the history of arbiter awards and they tend to be quite high. It's very, very rare in these high profile cases though. Hudler got 5.75 in 2009 after nearly 60 points and a much lower cap. Weber got 7.5 m (but was elite at that time so Barrie's would be lower). Hoffman got 2.0 for one hot year.

Barrie is a very high end offensive defenseman. He put up a lot of points and he's done it for many seasons in a row. He's also played a lot of minutes. He will ask for over 7. For the Avs to ask for 4 or 5 million, they would have to bash him pretty good in the hearing, which is a thing that can happen in these things.

I think they will sign him before arbitration rather than potentially burning a bridge by going through with it. I would expect a short term deal of 1 or 2 seasons between 5 and 6. Idk though. I'm curious how it turns out.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

he cannot take a OS.

I know that, I'm just saying that IF he wants out of Colorado it would've taken an insane offer sheet for Colorado to walk away from him so him removing the OS possibility isn't a sign that he wants to stay necessarily. That would mean that the team making the OS would overpay him and fork over some solid draft pick to boot.

ironically, Edmonton set the market for D-men. Gross overpayment is what it's gonna take. With 3RFA years left. Colorado is in good position to wait it out if need be. We will not accept low ball or even fair market value. Gross over payment. Our system is pretty stocked with center depth and up and comers.

RHD are GOLD right now for sure, however IMO Larsson is more of a top pairing guy while Barrie is an elite offensive D who will also cost more cap wise. Larsson's contract was one of the many attractive selling points for our team. If Colorado gets Barrie locked up long term for a penny less than $6 million AAV long term it is a great deal IMO. The only way that it makes sense to trade him is if his asking price is more than what your brass thinks that he's worth. At that point cheaper assets and/or a solid defenseman makes sense unless you flip Duchene for Trouba for example.

Even before the arbitration filing was made, an OS wasn't plausible because the value of the compensation was going to be less than what COL could get in a trade for Barrie.

Colorado would have just matched and traded Barrie next year for more than the OS.

Exactly.

I don't see him as that tough player to lock up, at least not any tougher than the other big name RFAs still unsigned. I think he is looking for a long term open market contract, but given his RFA status and the lack of an offersheet (from a team he wants to sign with), means the Avs have the leverage. Now if Barrie had managed to get an offersheet like the one ROR got, a short term backloaded one with a high QO, that would move the advantage to his court. The problem is that OS is very difficult for any party to want to offer, because it gives the players a huge advantage in any future negotiations. OS are rare in the first place, but the predatory types are even harder to set up.

Anywho for now, Barrie is nothing more than any other arbitration eligible RFA, the Avs should be the patient party, and spend their time locking up MacKinnon (which was their focus this offseason).

I guess we'll see how easy or hard he'll be to lock up, his agent sounds like a difficult guy if the ROR negotiations were any indication. With MacKinnon locked up they should focus their entire attention to locking up Barrie or moving him if that is their preferred plan.

There's a big difference between filing for arbitration and going for arbitration. Lots of players will file as a safety net if their QO is significantly lower than what they could expect from an arbitration case. Every year a majority of players who file for arbitration never make it to arbitration because they eventually come to terms with their team.

The reason players/teams file is because there is a deadline. If Barrie doesn't file then he risks having to either sit out the season or take a salary determined by his previous QO.

Fair point, once it gets to arbitration things can get hairy and ugly. The deadline part is nice, however it could be a deadline for him to return or for him to be moved depending on what all parties come up with.

Filing doesn't mean anything. Going to arb is bad.

I wouldn't say that it doesn't mean anything, but it's the lesser of two evils.

Players file for arbitration for two reasons mainly. First it sets a date where the team normally has to put it's best offer on the table. It's a pressure point. Secondly, it guarantees the player is under contract the next season and you avoid it dragging on with the player missing camp.

Twenty players file for it every summer. It doesn't mean there is a big problem.

Barrie might be hard to sign, given who is representing him. We'll see. Avs won't be rushed into anything. They hung on to Ryan O'Reilly for a whole season after it was obvious they had to trade him. So any GM that figures they will just lowball Avs and Avs will be forced to move Barrie will probably waste their time. Avs can hang on to Barrie for two seasons before they have to move him.

As long as he doesn't become a distraction to the team then they most definitely could take the arbitration award and have him play out that contract or at least some of it before moving him.

 

[McMetal]

not to totally derail this thread, but what is the basis for that arbitration award? I looked up the history of arbiter awards and they tend to be quite high. It's very, very rare in these high profile cases though. Hudler got 5.75 in 2009 after nearly 60 points and a much lower cap. Weber got 7.5 m (but was elite at that time so Barrie's would be lower). Hoffman got 2.0 for one hot year.

Barrie is a very high end offensive defenseman. He put up a lot of points and he's done it for many seasons in a row. He's also played a lot of minutes. He will ask for over 7. For the Avs to ask for 4 or 5 million, they would have to bash him pretty good in the hearing, which is a thing that can happen in these things.

I think they will sign him before arbitration rather than potentially burning a bridge by going through with it. I would expect a short term deal of 1 or 2 seasons between 5 and 6. Idk though. I'm curious how it turns out.

While I do agree with you that it's unlikely the arbitration goes through, I see Barrie somewhat differently. Yes, he's an elite offensive guy, but he finished last year with a -16, much worse than his partner, Holden, who finished even and is considered a borderline AHLer among Avs fans. His comparables at 7m would be guys like Drew Doughty, who is a much more complete defenseman all around. Barrie is one-dimensional. His one dimension is very good, but 7m is money for an all-around defenseman, not an offensive specialist. That will come out when and if arbitration actually happens, and he'll get fair value.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

While I do agree with you that it's unlikely the arbitration goes through, I see Barrie somewhat differently. Yes, he's an elite offensive guy, but he finished last year with a -16, much worse than his partner, Holden, who finished even and is considered a borderline AHLer among Avs fans. His comparables at 7m would be guys like Drew Doughty, who is a much more complete defenseman all around. Barrie is one-dimensional. His one dimension is very good, but 7m is money for an all-around defenseman, not an offensive specialist.

Yandle might be a good comp however he was an UFA. I'd be surprised to see him get less than $5.5 million in Arbitration. Dougie Hamilton would be a better comp as he was a RFA when he signed his deal.

 

[AslanRH]

I know that, I'm just saying that IF he wants out of Colorado it would've taken an insane offer sheet for Colorado to walk away from him so him removing the OS possibility isn't a sign that he wants to stay necessarily. That would mean that the team making the OS would overpay him and fork over some solid draft pick to boot.

If he wanted out of Colorado he either makes them use their only opportunity to file (also allowing him to take a 1 year option) and causing them to go through this again or trade him either before this round or the next.

By filing he has given the Avs likely 2 years of service with no immediate pressure on them to trade him.

 

[Draiskull]

If he wanted out of Colorado he either makes them use their only opportunity to file (also allowing him to take a 1 year option) and causing them to go through this again or trade him either before this round or the next.

By filing he has given the Avs likely 2 years of service with no immediate pressure on them to trade him.

Its obvious Barrie doesnt want out of COL.. He (and his agent) just wants to get paid..

It is also obvious that COL doesnt want to pay him.. therefore he is still a RFA and not locked up for more 7 or 8yrs.

Give him his term and reasonable AAV and Barrie would gladly spend his prime years in COL..

Barrie is going to make the AVs pay through their nose if the arbitration award is much lower than what he wanted. Avs wont be very happy if the arbitration award is too high for their liking.

bottom line... ala Subban there is always going to be tension between both sides if there is a messy arbitration..

 

[Bryanbryoil]

If he wanted out of Colorado he either makes them use their only opportunity to file (also allowing him to take a 1 year option) and causing them to go through this again or trade him either before this round or the next.

By filing he has given the Avs likely 2 years of service with no immediate pressure on them to trade him.

Out of curiosity who filed for arbitration, ROR or Sakic/Roy? Just wondering since Barrie has the same agent as ROR and if there are any similarities or differences in this case?

Do the Avs get to select the term or does Barrie since he elected to file?

All of this should play out one way or another once the date is set. I'd love to add Barrie to the Oilers but I don't see Colorado giving him away unless his contract demands are ridiculous for Colorado as well as any team acquiring him.