McKenzie: Oilers in on Barrie? (Part II)

[Draiskull]

so anything new reported on this or are we just doing the usual back n forth bickering?

 

[Drij]

So, you're happy with colorados trajectory? I think when you have to use 4 years ago as some kind of benchmark, you're in trouble. You sound like we did.

Well you are using the 112 point season as the starting point. That was a fluke season. Using points in general doesn't show anything. They had less points in year 3 then in year 2 but their overall place in the standings inproved.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Not true. While there has not been any really bad deals where they gave up a high quality player for scraps there has certainly been stinkers. Berra and Stuart trades are the obvious examples of trades that were terrible the second they happened.

Berra was for a late 2nd so that is not that bad for a backup goalie. CAL was not going to agree on a late 3rd for Berra.

I'll give you the Stuart trade though. The worst part though was to sign him to a two-year extension at $3.6/per before he even played one regular season game for the Avs.

Overall Sakic has done pretty good in trades and FA.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

So what, you want to put the trade on the shelf while it matures for a few years before anyone gets to analyze it?

Trade stinks now and that's what matters. The dice roll is that it won't down the line but odds aren't good

Would it have been better to keep ROR for another year and let him walk as a UFA?

Or should we have just given him the $8m he wanted, even if it completely screwed up our salary structure and prevented us from being able to keep other good players?

 

[Muffin]

So what, you want to put the trade on the shelf while it matures for a few years before anyone gets to analyze it?

Trade stinks now and that's what matters. The dice roll is that it won't down the line but odds aren't good

By that logic any trade for draft picks is a bad trade because you can't see the return right away. Zadorov is a safe bet to be a top 4 defenseman with potential to be a #1. Compher will be a 3rd line centre with potential to play a top 6 role. Grigorenko is the wild card here. AJ Greer had a great season in the Q and made it all the way to the memorial cup finals. If Zadorov only becomes a 2nd pairing defenseman and one of the forward turns into a 2nd line forward, I'd consider the trade even. If any of them turns into a top pairing defenseman or any of the forwards become a top line forward then the Avs win the trade by a mile.

Let's not kid ourselves here. The Sabres gave up close to 4 first rounder for O'Reilly. 2015 31st pick, Compher 35th overall, Grigorenko 12th overall, Zadorov 16th overall.

 

[cgf]

The Avs should just be happy that Edmonton's willing to give up quality vets like Fayne & Pouliot alongside a bluechip prospect like Reinhart for Barrie without insisting on getting Colorado's 1st back as well.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

So what, you want to put the trade on the shelf while it matures for a few years before anyone gets to analyze it?

Not sure what you mean by "put it on the shelf", all trades aren't made with the immediate in mind so yes, IMO the final say on if it was a good or bad trade can't be measured until it matures. It's really not that complicated. But that wasn't even the point of my post.

The poster was commenting about how another poster "liked stating his opinions as if they were fact", when he/she was doing the exact same thing. Pot meet kettle.

Trade stinks now and that's what matters. The dice roll is that it won't down the line but odds aren't good

No, when you trade for futures (which this trade did), right now is not what matters at all. Again, not that complicated. I can't tell you the odds of how it will go down the road. I'm not a Avs fan so I don't have a dog in this hunt, just calling it like I see it.

 

[Draiskull]

The Avs should just be happy that Edmonton's willing to give up quality vets like Fayne & Pouliot alongside a bluechip prospect like Reinhart for Barrie without insisting on getting Colorado's 1st back as well.

aww poor guy... trying to bait more Oilers fans now that they have stopped posting in this thread.

apparently no one gives a **** about Avs 1st since a 1st round pick (Oilers) hold no value in this thread.

 

[Muffin]

aww poor guy... trying to bait more Oilers fans now that they have stopped posting in this thread.

apparently no one gives a **** about Avs 1st since a 1st round pick (Oilers) hold no value in this thread.

Shouldn't you take that as a compliment? I think Oiler's 1st pick hold a lot of value because it'll be a top 3 pick. If others think the pick don't hold much value then they think the pick won't be a top 5 pick.

 

[AslanRH]

I'm almost certain Newport will be using those players as comparables. As a professional agency, I expect they have a good handle on how the arbitration process will go and what they need to do to get their client (and in turn, themselves) the most money.

I'm going to guess that when making the comp list the NHL tossed as many of the high contracts out they could and the NHLPA tossed the low contracts, so they may not even be able to use them

 

[OutForMilk]

Not sure what you mean by "put it on the shelf", all trades aren't made with the immediate in mind so yes, IMO the final say on if it was a good or bad trade can't be measured until it matures. It's really not that complicated. But that wasn't even the point of my post.

The poster was commenting about how another poster "liked stating his opinions as if they were fact", when he/she was doing the exact same thing. Pot meet kettle.



No, when you trade for futures (which this trade did), right now is not what matters at all. Again, not that complicated. I can't tell you the odds of how it will go down the road. I'm not a Avs fan so I don't have a dog in this hunt, just calling it like I see it.

look at my posts. I clearly used the expression "IMO". would it have helped you out if I expanded that?

 

[strictlyrandy]

Imagine if the Avs only got Jake McCabe and a 2nd round pick for ROR (like so many believed). Avs fans were told countless times that they'd never get a blue chip prospect like Zadorov. Now that they got that plus some other really good prospects, that trade is a failure and the players involved are long shots to make the NHL. Amazing.

 

[Don Corleone]

So, they risked 2nds and a 6th in attempts to get a decent backup G and a veteran D. I'd say the Berra trade worked out OK. Acquiring Stuart would have been fine if they hadn't extended him before he played a game.

And, keep in mind they just traded Berra for Grimaldi, a former 2nd round pick. And they got back everything they gave up for Stuart in exchange for moving down 8 spots in the second round.

A 2nd rounder for a meh backup goaltender is terrible no matter what. The Avs benefited nothing from making that trade, they could have signed a better backup for free during the off season. So essentially they gave a 2nd for nothing. Even if Berra would have become a good backup still that is something that can be acquired for free so a 2nd is just throwing a decent asset away. Also Grimaldi being a former 2nd round pick does not make the trade any better its not like Grimaldi is worth a second right now, a bad trade is a bad trade.

The Stuart trade was also a 2nd and a 6th pick for a veteran D who was nearly done as a player. Once again something that could have been signed for free and even cheaper during the off season. The fact that you have to defend the move by saying that they got the picks back in a separate trade, that had nothing to do with the Stuart trade, just shows how dumb of a trade it was in the first place.

Of course these are not big losses but no one should defend moves where 2nd round picks are thrown away for no good reason.

 

[Makar Goes Fast]

A 2nd rounder for a meh backup goaltender is terrible no matter what. The Avs benefited nothing from making that trade, they could have signed a better backup for free during the off season. So essentially they gave a 2nd for nothing. Even if Berra would have become a good backup still that is something that can be acquired for free so a 2nd is just throwing a decent asset away. Also Grimaldi being a former 2nd round pick does not make the trade any better its not like Grimaldi is worth a second right now, a bad trade is a bad trade.

The Stuart trade was also a 2nd and a 6th pick for a veteran D who was nearly done as a player. Once again something that could have been signed for free and even cheaper during the off season. The fact that you have to defend the move by saying that they got the picks back in a separate trade, that had nothing to do with the Stuart trade, just shows how dumb of a trade it was in the first place.

Of course these are not big losses but no one should defend moves where 2nd round picks are thrown away for no good reason.

no one is denying they werent mistakes, but colorado was able to recoup on the losses. thats all it means.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

look at my posts. I clearly used the expression "IMO". would it have helped you out if I expanded that?

Clearly? Yeah right, you used it 1 time 5 or 6 posts later. Here's the string of posts I was commenting on. If you used it much further in the thread, then I wouldn't have seen it as I only read the past couple of pages. You are completely acting like your opinion is a fact and then later on have the nerve to call out the Avs poster for doing the same. As I said, Pot, meet Kettle.

Best they could find? Problem is, the best they could find kind of sucks. In fact, they totally suck. Not a single piece that belongs on a championship caliber team, or seems to be tracking that way either. Quit trying to sugar coat it. We aren't. We hate the Hall trade. Like I said. Optimism at its finest.

Sooooooo, what piece isn't meh? None of them. Crap return.

Unless Colorado went into a mini rebuild last year and failed to let any one know, that trade didn't make them a better team. And none of them are tracking well either. Any of those players can prove me wrong, of course.

So, you're happy with colorados trajectory? I think when you have to use 4 years ago as some kind of benchmark, you're in trouble. You sound like we did.

I'm getting off the point of the thread here, sorry. My point is this: colorados existing management has shown , IMO, that are are both willing to trade talented players as well as shown that they can make poor trades. Lots of room for us to speculate here. Never underestimate what a bad gm will do.

Yep, you finally add a IMO and it wasn't even an IMO it was a bad trade, it was IMO they are willing to trade talented players and make bad trades but that was after post after post where you were acting as if your opinion was fact, same thing you called the other guy out on.

 

[OutForMilk]

Yep, you finally add a IMO and it wasn't even an IMO it was a bad trade, it was IMO they are willing to trade talented players and make bad trades but that was after post after post where you were acting as if your opinion was fact, same thing you called the other guy out on.

I only need one IMO. How many do you require? two? three? five? One in every post?
Let's go ahead and stop wasting everyone's time now, Okay?

 

[Joe Sakic]

so anything new reported on this or are we just doing the usual back n forth bickering?

I think you know the answer

 

[KPower]

.....

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I only need one IMO. How many do you require? two? three? five? One in every post?
Let's go ahead and stop wasting everyone's time now, Okay?

If you say so.

How about let's go ahead and stop wasting everyone's time by calling out other people about saying their opinion is fact when you did the exact same thing multiple times, Okay? In fact, most everything on HF is posters Opinions (even without 1 IMO) so you calling him out on that was kind of silly in the first place (thus my point)

 

[danielpalfredsson]

The Berra trade wasn't as bad as it seems on paper. The Avalanche gave up the 54th pick of the 2014 draft. One thing to consider when evaluating that trade is that the Avalanche's drafting had been mediocre up to that point. They fired their head scout after the 2014 draft. That was the same draft that they wasted a first rounder on Bleackley. It is much easier to move a 2nd round pick when your team has a bad draft record. Odds are, Colorado got more out of Berra than they would have out of that 2nd rounder.

Also, Colorado saw potential in Berra, he had a history working with the Avalanche's goalie coach in the off season. So it wasn't as cut and dry as giving up a very late 2nd for a backup goalie. It didn't work out, but he had some bright points.

The Stuart trade was a steaming pile of ****. I'd like to think that part of the reason San Jose paid such a steep price to trade up a few spots and get Jeremy Roy was because they felt bad about fleecing Colorado in the Stuart trade so they gave them back their pick. If Stuart was what Colorado thought they were getting, what they gave up would have been more than fair, but he wasn't.

Evaluating their other trades, the Tanguay trade worked out pretty well when you consider the players that went the other way and that it was mostly cap in/out instead of them actually "buying" Tanguay with assets.

I didn't like Downie for Talbot at the time, but there were rumored off ice issues.

The Briere trade was a good move. It ultimately worked out to paying MTL a late draft pick to take on an extra year of what turned out to be a bad contract.

Their trade deadline moves this season were fine. They got hustled a bit on Boedker since Arizona pimped his numbers with significant PP time, but a 2nd and a B level prospect wasn't a lot to give up for a rental. Obviously, it looks bad now because they missed the playoffs, but if you're a fan of a team that was in Colorado's position at the deadline you've gotta be happy about them doing what they can without selling the farm to try and improve the team.

I still think both in the short and the long term they lost the ROR trade BUT before I get jumped on, they got a very good return when you consider the context of the situation. It is just very hard to move on from a player of ROR's caliber. I'd rather have ROR+2 way bottom 6 forward than Comeau+Soderberg at 8M, but I can see the argument about how signing ROR to such a big contract could hurt the teams ability to enforce a salary structure and get players to buy in on taking slight discounts like Johnson and MacKinnon probably did.

I think there might be an issue with Colorado's ability to evaluate players at a pro level which has caused them to make a few bad trades or sign UFAs to contracts that with the benefit of hindsight aren't the greatest. This isn't to say they haven't found some gems in free agency like Beauchemin who they got a lot out of this year.

The Avalanche haven't done that bad with trades, but I think part of their reputation as being bad at trading comes from the fact that this regime has yet to actually make a real blockbuster trade where they aren't the ones selling off the superstar and instead are the ones buying one long term. As a whole, they haven't made that many awful trades. The only really bad one was Stuart. The negative is their heavy reliance on UFA contracts for non-core pieces because they haven't developed 4-6 level defenders and middle 6 forwards due to their bad drafting which has made them more susceptible to having bad contracts than your average team.

 

[cgf]

The Berra trade worked out, unfortunately for Reto tho he got hurt and Pickard worked out harder...erasing the opening Berra was initially brought in to fill. If Pickard didn't come on so strong once Allaire took over and Berra had stayed healthy, he'd probably still be our back up goalie.

My biggest gripe with their handling of Stuart was giving him an immediate two year extension. If it had been just one, that would've been fine; even with him breaking this year...since we did manage to recoup those picks. He was a solid shutdown dman for the team in that first season, who really anchored the PK and even managed to (somehow) form a competent shutdown pairing with Nick Holden for a little while after EJ went down. They made a minor mistake in overpaying for a useful player, and then managed to recoup the assets lost while still getting one of their guys.

...which may have even worked out in their favor, given that Greer has made huge strides in his draft+1 year and they might not have picked him if one of the other PWF prospects that went at the top of that second round, were still available at the pick they got in the ROR trade.

I still hate the Boedker trade though; even with Clurman looking like he will replace Kyle Wood as the long term top-4 RHD project in our system. Bleackley will be a useful NHLer for STL, but I get that the team had already moved on; and so was willing to move him. But Wood should not have been on the table for a rental. Kid has way too much potential, and has made too many strides towards it since being drafted; to be discarded so easily...phew, been a while since I vented about that one.

 

[EscapedGoat]

I love that 1.5 years ago Avs fans were called crazy because ROR would never get a Zadorov in a trade. Now that they got Zads and three other valuable pieces Avs fans are being called crazy for not thinking they got swindled. Do people posting these things not see how hilarious that is?

 

[AslanRH]

I only need one IMO. How many do you require? two? three? five? One in every post?
Let's go ahead and stop wasting everyone's time now, Okay?

Perhaps your "IMO" should have preceded this then

... Problem is, the best they could find kind of sucks. In fact, they totally suck. Not a single piece that belongs on a championship caliber team, or seems to be tracking that way either. .....

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

I love that 1.5 years ago Avs fans were called crazy because ROR would never get a Zadorov in a trade. Now that they got Zads and three other valuable pieces Avs fans are being called crazy for not thinking they got swindled. Do people posting these things not see how hilarious that is?

Do Avs fans not see how hilarious it is that their only defense for that trade is what the Internet said? Never mind the actual players involved, never mind their results in the NHL (or lackthereof), never mind O'Reilly's production or Colorado's continued struggles... it's always, always about HFBoards and cyberstrawmen.

That you can't address the trade on its merits alone without resorting to that line indicates it wasn't a good one, sorry to say.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Do Avs fans not see how hilarious it is that their only defense for that trade is what the Internet said? Never mind the actual players involved, never mind their results in the NHL (or lackthereof), never mind O'Reilly's production or Colorado's continued struggles... it's always, always about HFBoards and cyberstrawmen.

That you can't address the trade on its merits without pulling that line indicates it wasn't a good one, sorry to say.

You mean how Zadorov looked good in a top 4 role at the end of the year and looks ready to contribute at the NHL level? It was a futures trade, no wonder none of them played in the NHL. Compher, just lit up the NCAA next year and will most likely get some NHL time next year. AJ Greer had a great season in juniors and should be AHL ready next year and looks like he should be an NHL player in the future. Every Avalanche fan knew that the Sabres won this trade in the short term, now we are waiting to see what we have in Zadorov, Compher, Greer, and Morrison; and it looks like we have some really good pieces in those 4.