McKenzie: Oilers in on Barrie? (Part II)

[Vatican Roulette]

...even with Clurman looking like he will replace Kyle Wood as the long term top-4 RHD project in our system.

Tell me more about Clurman please.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

Tell me more about Clurman please.

He was our most recent 6th round pick (2016). From what I can tell he's got some good tools, he skates well, has a good shot, good size, he's just a few years off at least.

 

[AslanRH]

The Avs don't have enough #1 OA picks yet to be in win now mode, so they hedged their bets with a bunch of lottery tickets that may pan out. I mean, a 5th rounder just signed for just south of 80 million dollars, so stranger things have happened.

 

[strictlyrandy]

Do Avs fans not see how hilarious it is that their only defense for that trade is what the Internet said? Never mind the actual players involved, never mind their results in the NHL (or lackthereof), never mind O'Reilly's production or Colorado's continued struggles... it's always, always about HFBoards and cyberstrawmen.

That you can't address the trade on its merits alone without resorting to that line indicates it wasn't a good one, sorry to say.

You are missing the point. Avs fans were told endlessly that they'd not get anything of value for ROR. We were told endlessly that ROR was an overrated 3rd line center.

Maybe....just maybe Avs fans have a clue about the team they cheer for?

Speaking of ROR though..while I do love him, the Avs made the absolute right choice in trading him for futures. You bring up ROR's production...do tell, how many 5v5 goals did ROR have this season? He is a fantastic player but the Avs got great value for him when there was absolutely no way they could keep him.

This narrative that the Avs have trouble keeping their players is also hilarious. Guess the media slept while they had trouble signing Duchene, EJ, Varly, Landy, MacKinnon, and Pickard right?

 

[EscapedGoat]

Do Avs fans not see how hilarious it is that their only defense for that trade is what the Internet said? Never mind the actual players involved, never mind their results in the NHL (or lackthereof), never mind O'Reilly's production or Colorado's continued struggles... it's always, always about HFBoards and cyberstrawmen.

That you can't address the trade on its merits alone without resorting to that line indicates it wasn't a good one, sorry to say.

The fact that you think a futures trade is a failure because of lack of production in year one means I don't really need to respond to you in depth. Either you don't understand that a futures trade takes a few years to judge, or you do know that and wilfully ignored that fact to try to take a shot at an entire fanbase. Either way, there's no need to try to engage you in a conversation.

PS. You need to look up what a strawman is. Me pointing out the comedy in people on here claiming the Avs were fleeced when 1.5 years ago the Avs wouldn't get close to a guy like zadarov isn't a strawman.

 

[OutForMilk]

You mean how Zadorov looked good in a top 4 role at the end of the year and looks ready to contribute at the NHL level? It was a futures trade, no wonder none of them played in the NHL. Compher, just lit up the NCAA next year and will most likely get some NHL time next year. AJ Greer had a great season in juniors and should be AHL ready next year and looks like he should be an NHL player in the future. Every Avalanche fan knew that the Sabres won this trade in the short term, now we are waiting to see what we have in Zadorov, Compher, Greer, and Morrison; and it looks like we have some really good pieces in those 4.

Huh? He played six games and got zero points. That's nhl level? Maybe that's a little presumptive.
Here's the thing. Unless your team is trying to retool/rebuild, any "futures" trade is kind of a fail, no? The Avalanche were a worse team after that trade. Full value would be at the very least the pieces needed to at least stay at the same level competitively. In that, Sakic didn't do a good enough job. His team dropped in the standings.

 

[OutForMilk]

You are missing the point. Avs fans were told endlessly that they'd not get anything of value for ROR. We were told endlessly that ROR was an overrated 3rd line center.

Maybe....just maybe Avs fans have a clue about the team they cheer for?

Speaking of ROR though..while I do love him, the Avs made the absolute right choice in trading him for futures. You bring up ROR's production...do tell, how many 5v5 goals did ROR have this season? He is a fantastic player but the Avs got great value for him when there was absolutely no way they could keep him.

This narrative that the Avs have trouble keeping their players is also hilarious. Guess the media slept while they had trouble signing Duchene, EJ, Varly, Landy, MacKinnon, and Pickard right?

What in the world does fans of other teams evaluation of a players return have anything to do with the actual value that a player brought back? They're wrong 90 times out of a 100. The fact that they were wrong is a reason to trumpet that trade as good? Geez.

 

[OutForMilk]

The fact that you think a futures trade is a failure because of lack of production in year one means I don't really need to respond to you in depth. Either you don't understand that a futures trade takes a few years to judge, or you do know that and wilfully ignored that fact to try to take a shot at an entire fanbase. Either way, there's no need to try to engage you in a conversation.

PS. You need to look up what a strawman is. Me pointing out the comedy in people on here claiming the Avs were fleeced when 1.5 years ago the Avs wouldn't get close to a guy like zadarov isn't a strawman.

A top 6, versatile well rounded player was traded away, and the best piece they could get isn't even a full time nhler. Isn't that usually considered very poor value?
I know you've had time to reconsile the details of the trade, but "futures" usually is a big disappointment for a competitive team. Which, IMO, is no longer the case in Colorado.
I see so many similarities with Colorado and Edmonton.

 

[dahrougem2]

A top 6, versatile well rounded player was traded away, and the best piece they could get isn't even a full time nhler. Isn't that usually considered very poor value?
I know you've had time to reconsile the details of the trade, but "futures" usually is a big disappointment for a competitive team. Which, IMO, is no longer the case in Colorado.
I see so many similarities with Colorado and Edmonton.

I guess the Bruins got poor value when they traded Phil Kessel away for a package of futures. That turned out to be pretty disappointing right?

Fact is this: Nikita Zadorov turned 21 in April, Mikhail Grigorenko turned 22 in May, J.T. Compher turned 21 in April, and A.J. Greer turns 20 in December. Can people call Grigorenko a bust? Sure, if you'd like. I certainly won't, at least not yet after seeing how he played last season when actually given top-6 minutes and linemates. But calling the trade a failure because a defensemen wasn't a top-4 guy at the age of 20 is ridiculous. God forbid the Avs actually play it smart unlike what the old Sabres' regime did and take their time developing their young assets.

Trades shouldn't be evaluated after just one season. How about you give some proper time for the Avs' players to make a legitimate impact in the NHL when their development has concluded. As of last season, Grigorenko was the only player who was remotely close to having that said about him, and he's still developing on-the-job in the NHL.

The only similarity between Edmonton and Colorado is that both teams have been losers for a long time now. The teams have been built differently, managed differently, players developed differently, just completely different organizational philosophies.

 

[Avenger*]

Oh hey, just like for the billionth time, Roy never referred to Barrie as a 5D.

But really, it's all he said she said, believe what you want.

According to Stauffer who knows more then you do he's been told this from a second party. According to Colorado fans Frei isn't a second party.

So clearly the Frei equation is irrelevant hence there's no evidence that something along those lines was never said. For all we know Frei could have formed his "opinion" from the same source.

I'll take Stauffers word over a random guy on an internet forum. Thanks.

 

[Avenger*]

And for the billionth time, the Avs sign their good players far more often than not.

Duchene, Landeskog, Varly, EJ, MacKinnon.

You think we're crying over Shawn Matthias?

You forget that Barrie is represented by the same agency as ROR and Sakic seems to have an issue with paying players more then $6 million AAV.

 

[Avenger*]

Difference being you traded your second best player for a pretty meh defenseman and Colorado got the best they could find for someone who absolutely wanted away from the team at all costs. Not even remotely similar situations.

Larsson was the best 22+ minute right shot d-man available, symbolized a culture change and made room to bring in another player that doesn't play a redundant role. Might want to educate yourself on the situation before making such an ignorant comment.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I love some of the mental gymnastics in this thread. "Fans are wrong on on player return evaluations 90 times out of 100. Oh yeah, your team got a bad return on that trade."

Unless a team is a strong cup contender with a limited window (ie..Pens while Malkin, Crosby and Letang are in their prime), no GM worth his salt looks at (or should look at) a trade only in the short term. That's just plain silly.

Avs finished 21st in the NHL with 90 points in ROR's last year. They finished 21st in the NHL with 82 points the year after trading ROR. It's not like they were on the verge of being a cup winner and should forget about the long term and focus only on a short term return. GM's, rightfully so, have to focus on what's best for the team not just in year 1, but throughout time. Don't get me wrong, I'd guess that if someone offered the Avs a "Like for Like" type deal for ROR, they'd have taken it, but those aren't very common in the NHL when you are talking about top 6 F / Top 4 D, especially since ROR was going go command a large contract where ever he went. Like I said, I'm not an Avs fan, but saying the trade was bad just because they got young players / prospects back is short sighted at best.

 

[strictlyrandy]

You forget that Barrie is represented by the same agency as ROR and Sakic seems to have an issue with paying players more then $6 million AAV.

Considering he just signed MacKinnon for a 6.3 cap hit.. he really doesn't. Little known fact, they also offered Stastny more than 6 to stay. Keep on with that narrative though even though it's false.

 

[strictlyrandy]

According to Stauffer who knows more then you do he's been told this from a second party. According to Colorado fans Frei isn't a second party.

So clearly the Frei equation is irrelevant hence there's no evidence that something along those lines was never said. For all we know Frei could have formed his "opinion" from the same source.

I'll take Stauffers word over a random guy on an internet forum. Thanks.

The Avs are one of the most tight lipped organizations out there. I'd safely bet my next paycheck that he knows nothing about what Roy thinks of Barrie. You keep hammering this whole "there's no proof Roy didn't say it"... except there is...right in front of you. Roy played Barrie well over 20 minutes a game. A number 5 defenseman doesn't get those kind of minutes. You're so bent on wanting to believe that Roy hates Barrie that you completely ignore facts because they don't suit your own agenda.

 

[AslanRH]

Larsson was the best 22+ minute right shot d-man available, symbolized a culture change and made room to bring in another player that doesn't play a redundant role. Might want to educate yourself on the situation before making such an ignorant comment.

Mighty strong words for someone who posted this earlier.

That's not how arbitration works. Once the dollar amount is determined Colorado can decide if it's a one or two year term.

or this

You forget that Barrie is represented by the same agency as ROR and Sakic seems to have an issue with paying players more then $6 million AAV.

Pot, meet Kettle

MacKinnon is currently making over 6m and would be the highest paid player on the Oilers. I mean, It isn't like in the past the Oilers have been willing to go out and do what it takes to fix their defense either. Perhaps even spend over $6m themselves.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

A top 6, versatile well rounded player was traded away, and the best piece they could get isn't even a full time nhler. Isn't that usually considered very poor value?
I know you've had time to reconsile the details of the trade, but "futures" usually is a big disappointment for a competitive team. Which, IMO, is no longer the case in Colorado.
I see so many similarities with Colorado and Edmonton.

A top 6, versitile well rounded player with one year until UFA was traded away. He wasn't willing to sign a deal that worked within the teams salary structure, and the Avs were going to give him the $8m he wanted to stay, so the Avs traded him before losing him for nothing. Is the return they got significantly better than nothing?

And, had they signed ROR for the $8m he wanted to stay, they'd be in even more of a cap situation than they are now. Do you think MacKinnon would have signed for $1.7m less than ROR? Would EJ have still signed for $6m? How would that impact future contracts for Duchene and Landeskog?

If you look at the big picture, the Avs made the right choice to trade ROR, got a good package of futures in return, and brought in Soderberg to help lessen the impact of losing ROR.

 

[tucker3434]

A top 6, versatile well rounded player was traded away, and the best piece they could get isn't even a full time nhler. Isn't that usually considered very poor value?
I know you've had time to reconsile the details of the trade, but "futures" usually is a big disappointment for a competitive team. Which, IMO, is no longer the case in Colorado.
I see so many similarities with Colorado and Edmonton.

Actually, we wanted Zadorov all along. Avs fans pegged his trade almost exactly. The only surprising part were the additions of McGinn and Compher. So it didn't take us any time at all to reconcile the trade. We knew it was coming. The second I got the notification, I was thrilled with it.

Zadorov is 21 and the best defensive prospect we've had in years. He'll be in our top 4 this season. While the trade might have been "futures" for us, we should have 3 young NHLers from that trade in the coming season. The trade is currently tracking at least as good as we could have predicted.

 

[Mcnotloilersfan]

Why are we talking about the ROR trade here? Let's get back to Yak + 2nd for Barrie

 

[VainGretzky]

You mean how Zadorov looked good in a top 4 role at the end of the year and looks ready to contribute at the NHL level? It was a futures trade, no wonder none of them played in the NHL. Compher, just lit up the NCAA next year and will most likely get some NHL time next year. AJ Greer had a great season in juniors and should be AHL ready next year and looks like he should be an NHL player in the future. Every Avalanche fan knew that the Sabres won this trade in the short term, now we are waiting to see what we have in Zadorov, Compher, Greer, and Morrison; and it looks like we have some really good pieces in those 4.

Every team has a cupboard full of prospects like this so don't hold your breath

 

[strictlyrandy]

Why are we talking about the ROR trade here? Let's get back to Yak + 2nd for Barrie

I actually wouldn't mind Yak at all on the Avs. Still think he's got lots of potential to break out.

Barrie isn't being traded any time soon according to Sakic. Which as an Avs fan I'm very ok with. He's one of my favorite players on the team.

As far as Yak in a trade, I'd absolutely be fine with trading for him. Something around Will Butcher and Yakupov maybe? I really like Butcher, but not sure there's a spot for him with Barrie sticking around.

 

[playasRus]

Boy was this thread derailed. So what's the update on Barrie to the Oilers?

 

[tucker3434]

Every team has a cupboard full of prospects like this so don't hold your breath

No, everybody does not have a Zadorov.

And everybody has good prospects so therefore, ours won't workout? What?

 

[The Abusement Park]

Huh? He played six games and got zero points. That's nhl level? Maybe that's a little presumptive.
Here's the thing. Unless your team is trying to retool/rebuild, any "futures" trade is kind of a fail, no? The Avalanche were a worse team after that trade. Full value would be at the very least the pieces needed to at least stay at the same level competitively. In that, Sakic didn't do a good enough job. His team dropped in the standings.

So you're basing his play on offensive stats? Did you actually watch any games that he played? Because defensively he looks ready. A futures isn't always a fail. The Avs didn't much in terms of prospects so that was helpful for us, and it's hard to get full value on a pending UFA. Sakic did great for the situation he was put into. He tried to get a dman for ROR but it didn't happen and he ended up getting a defenseman with one of the highest ceilings out there.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Every team has a cupboard full of prospects like this so don't hold your breath

So every team has a dman prospect that has a ceiling of a #1 defenseman?(not saying he'll get there but he has the potential to be) That must be why everyone wants one huh.