McKenzie: Oilers in on Barrie? (Part II)

[Avenger*]

Differentiating between a blogger saying "I think person X thinks Y" and "Person X said Y" is not semantics, as much as you might wish to pretend it is. Your lame cop out of "well other media is saying so..." is really quite pathetic, especially considering the source of what the media has been saying comes from the same blogger. You blatantly fabricated an idea (Roy disrespected Barrie by flat out calling him a #5 defensman), and since then you've been leading a merry chase of mental gymnastics to attempt to justify it. Really quite unbelievable.

You can comprehend it any way you like. What I'm saying is that because anyone stating either side is fact has no relation to those involved there is no definite answer. I find it hard to believe that Frei would just come out of the woodwork and randomly make up ********. At the same time it's possible that he phrased it differently or has taken what was said out of context. Who really knows? For the record Canadian media isn't nearly has bad as the US. Normally when content is picked up from the US there is more basis then what a blogger typed.

If you guys want to talk in absolutes like you were there when the discussion took place then there isn't much more to discuss here.

 

[Avsblitzkrieg]

You can comprehend it any way you like. What I'm saying is that because anyone stating either side is fact has no relation to those involved there is no definite answer. I find it hard to believe that Frei would just come out of the woodwork and randomly make up ********. At the same time it's possible that he phrased it differently or has taken what was said out of context. Who really knows? For the record Canadian media isn't nearly has bad as the US. Normally when content is picked up from the US there is more basis then what a blogger typed.

If you guys want to talk in absolutes like you were there when the discussion took place then there isn't much more to discuss here.

It's called speculation, and if you read his quote on the matter it sounded like he was speculating. It's the avs, you rarely if ever hear anything come from the org. And you can damn well be sure they wouldn't be dumb enough to try and lower his value.

To which I ask, what does itatter what Roy thinks?

 

[MettleMcOiler]

Honest Question but in general, what would be a fair value for a 5th defenceman?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I'm pretty sure none of you have a relationship with any of the people involved in the matter so quite frankly you know little more regarding the situation then I do. The point I'm making is that there's a possibility it happened and since it can't be confirmed either way and taking into consideration the circumstances it's probable that something along those lines was said.

Regarding your generalization, just because a criminal is good at hiding the evidence doesn't mean they are innocent. Logic over semantics.

Actually, innocent until proven guilty is our system of determining whether someone is guilty of a crime. If you can't prove they did it, they are legally innocent. Until you can provide any shred of evidence that Roy said anything remotely close to what Frei opined, there is no reasonable reason to believe that Roy said it.

And, to answer another point you tried to make, yes, Terry Frei would absolutely randomly make things up in an attempt to get clicks.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Honest Question but in general, what would be a fair value for a 5th defenceman?

We got a 4th for Nick Holden, a 6/7D. So, for a solid 5D, probably a 3rd + 5th?

Of course, Larsson would be a 4D on at least 1 team, and he returned Hall, so my valuation could be a bit off.

 

[Avs44]

You can comprehend it any way you like. What I'm saying is that because anyone stating either side is fact has no relation to those involved there is no definite answer. I find it hard to believe that Frei would just come out of the woodwork and randomly make up ********. At the same time it's possible that he phrased it differently or has taken what was said out of context. Who really knows? For the record Canadian media isn't nearly has bad as the US. Normally when content is picked up from the US there is more basis then what a blogger typed.

If you guys want to talk in absolutes like you were there when the discussion took place then there isn't much more to discuss here.

Are you serious? The Canadian media regarding hockey is terrible. It's filled with shameless rumor mongers clamoring for hits, attention, and seeking to fill up airtime. The bigger the market, the worse the media generally is. I read some of the pieces some of it's members try to write about the Avs, and the ignorance is at the level of a casual fan. There are only a handful of Canadian media members who deserve any serious respect. The vast majority are second rate journalists, and in some cases I struggle to apply that term to them.


Regarding your continued defense, most rational people don't believe in things unless there is reasonable proof of its existence. Your "it's just a he said / she said, you can't prove it either way" schtick is ridiculous and not remotely logical. If you don't have reasonable proof, you shouldn't hold it as true. Period.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

Continuing to use a one off trade as a basis for another is completely ignorant. Regardless if some think the trade was an over payment doesn't mean that it will happen again. Colorado fans seem to ignore that once a player goes to arbitration that relationship with the franchise is tarnished and more often then not doesn't progress much further after the decided time period. Once a player no longer wants to stay on a given team the franchise is at great disadvantage. If Sakic then decides that it's better to move Barrie he won't be in a position to demand an over payment regardless what the player does on the ice.

If you check my posting history I commented after the trade that Hall for Larsson doesn't set a trend. So I'm not being ignorant or using it as a basis. I'm pointing out that good young RHD have a lot of value.

If you want to assume things you're welcome to, but most Avs fans understand how bad arbitration is for their players. That doesn't mean Barrie is worth less or needs to be traded, plenty of players hit arbitration and stay too. Barrie isn't doing this to spite the Avs, he wants to get paid relative to how good he knows he is.

 

[MettleMcOiler]

We got a 4th for Nick Holden, a 6/7D. So, for a solid 5D, probably a 3rd + 5th?

Of course, Larsson would be a 4D on at least 1 team, and he returned Hall, so my valuation could be a bit off.

I think a 2nd or 3rd would be about right for elite 5th D.

I have high respect for Roy and considering he is legend in net, and has seen some top tier D play in front of him, so he might know what he is talking about in Evaluation of Defenceman.

 

[Drij]

Honest Question but in general, what would be a fair value for a 5th defenceman?

A 2nd line center like McDavid.

 

[McDirt McGirt]

If you check my posting history I commented after the trade that Hall for Larsson doesn't set a trend. So I'm not being ignorant or using it as a basis. I'm pointing out that good young RHD have a lot of value.

If you want to assume things you're welcome to, but most Avs fans understand how bad arbitration is for their players. That doesn't mean Barrie is worth less or needs to be traded, plenty of players hit arbitration and stay too. Barrie isn't doing this to spite the Avs, he wants to get paid relative to how good he knows he is.

Can you prove that the bolded is true or speculation? Just like the comment about Frei saying Roy said Barrie is a #5 D. We will never know the truth.......

 

[AMDZen]

A 2nd line center like McDavid.

I would actually accept a third line center like Draisaitl

 

[Rebuilt]

I could see RNH and Reinhart for Barrie and Grigorenko.

Do you then see leaving one of Larsson, Klefbom or Barrie vulnerable in the expansion draft? Because we would have to.

 

[Rebuilt]

If you check my posting history I commented after the trade that Hall for Larsson doesn't set a trend. So I'm not being ignorant or using it as a basis. I'm pointing out that good young RHD have a lot of value.

If you want to assume things you're welcome to, but most Avs fans understand how bad arbitration is for their players. That doesn't mean Barrie is worth less or needs to be traded, plenty of players hit arbitration and stay too. Barrie isn't doing this to spite the Avs, he wants to get paid relative to how good he knows he is.

Im glad you feel this way. KEEP HIM

 

[Slatsmsg]

Barrie is a very good player, not sure why all the animosity between Avs and Oiler fans. These threads all seem to go this way though...
That being said, Barrie won't help us more than a healthy roster will....Clearly there is a disagreement over worth between Barrie's camp and Sakic or they wouldn't be going to arbitration...makes no difference if they see him as a #2 or # 5, they have a difference over his value to the team.

I personally would not trade Nuge or Ebs for him, nor Drai, nor Nurse, nor Klefbom...

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Do you then see leaving one of Larsson, Klefbom or Barrie vulnerable in the expansion draft? Because we would have to.

Why? Protect those 3 + Sekera, RNH, Dra, Eberle and Lucic for skaters and Talbot as he goalie.

 

[earl grey]

there is always a chance for a deal.

 

[KidLine93]

We got a 4th for Nick Holden, a 6/7D. So, for a solid 5D, probably a 3rd + 5th?

Of course, Larsson would be a 4D on at least 1 team, and he returned Hall, so my valuation could be a bit off.

Seth Jones was a #4 D on Nashville and got Johansen as a return.

In general #4's don't have #1 potential

 

[ManofSteel55]

Do you then see leaving one of Larsson, Klefbom or Barrie vulnerable in the expansion draft? Because we would have to.

No we wouldn't. 4 and 4 would be the better option. Sekera, Klefbom, Larsson, Sekera, Draisaitl, Lucic, one of Nuge or Eberle as I assume one would need to be part of a deal for Barrie, and one other forward or one of Davidson or Reinhart.

Which leads to this question for Avalanche fans. IF Colorado is intent on moving Barrie and IF no other team is going to move a close to equal defenseman for him, and IF he would sign a deal with us that we would be happy with, would one of Nuge or Eberle and one of Davidson or Reinhart get a deal done?

 

[Avenger*]

Actually, innocent until proven guilty is our system of determining whether someone is guilty of a crime. If you can't prove they did it, they are legally innocent. Until you can provide any shred of evidence that Roy said anything remotely close to what Frei opined, there is no reasonable reason to believe that Roy said it.

I guess that's where we're different. I don't take government policy as definitve of anything since lies, corruption and money fuel policies.

 

[Avenger*]

We got a 4th for Nick Holden, a 6/7D. So, for a solid 5D, probably a 3rd + 5th?

Of course, Larsson would be a 4D on at least 1 team, and he returned Hall, so my valuation could be a bit off.

In Chicago or Nashville, yes. Depends how deep the d-core is obviously. Most teams he's a 2/3.

But apparently every d-man is now worth their weight in gold since a single one off deal where Edmonton moved One player and brought in three took place.

 

[Avenger*]

Do you then see leaving one of Larsson, Klefbom or Barrie vulnerable in the expansion draft? Because we would have to.

Not with the eight skaters and one goalie route.

 

[JLo217]

So Barrie is not EJ good but he is Karlsson lite


Barrie is nothing like Karlsson. . EK is a legit #1 Dman who you can throw out against top opposition and expect to carry not just your D pairing but the offense as well.

If Chia was going to bend and pay RNH it would have been done already.. Draisaitl is out of question and was a deal breaker in that supposed Subban deal.

Ball is in Sakic''s court ..he will see what Barrie is awarded and then he will either accept it or trade him for whatever is the best offer.

I don't expect it to be RNH...

You're right. The Avs aren't going to take back a small center that can't stay healthy making $6M per year if they're already concerned with what Barrie is going to make...

Logic is useful!

 

[Soundwave]

Barrie will be an Av on opening night, Oilers could still pursue Fowler I suppose who is probably more available, but I think most of the "big" deals are pretty much done until we get closer to Christmas at least.

By now most GMs have made their bed and aren't going to radically alter their roster.

Oilers should just overpay a tad and sign Wisniewski as a PP specialist, I don't think that would be a bad gamble otherwise that's the most balanced roster they've had in like a decade.

 

[Vanqu1sh]

I'm surprised at speculation on the part of McKenzie and Friedman on this, because all of the actual evidence and indications point towards Barrie remaining an Av. He fills an important role on their team, and is likely irreplaceable, to begin with. He says he wants to stay. They have 3 RFA years to figure things out - even if he just plays with an arbitration deal the two sides will have more time to see how things go. If Barrie keeps putting up 50+ he's certainly going to ask for more money and Avs will likely be more inclined to pay it. Even if they do end up having to trade him, they get 2-3 years of his play. That has value.

Given the ROR situation the Avs maybe didn't do so bad with the trade, but regardless the situation is what it is and it sucked. The Avs lost that trade. If you were the GM would you rather have ROR at 7.5 right now or all those prospects? Not to mention he could have been extended with more RFA years at a lower cap hit. That and losing Stastny has made the Avs noticeably worse and trading Barrie for more futures or whatever isn't going to help.

Just don't see how it makes any sense to trade Barrie, especially right now.

Still think Avs management is ****in up by not extending him this year though.

 

[48g90a138pts]

At this point now probably a better chance of James Wisniewski being signed by the Oilers than a deal between Avs and Oilers.

If the ask is too much from Roy then Wisniewski would be a better play anyways. The way Oilers fans were asking for Chiarelli's head after trading Hall, it will be the same if Eberle or RNH were moved.

Loosing a free agent to Las Vegas like James Wisniewski next year wouldn't hurt that much either.