Speculation: Offseason Thread XVII: Trade a spade for a jade

[TheTakedown]

Eminently possible in the summer of '17. Do it then.

Agreed, maybe Gorton is waiting until after the expansion draft/moving on from Girardi before acquiring said top 4 rhd

 

[smoneil]

The Staal extension was downright stupid the minute it was made. Completely indefensible. LHD prospects not far from turning pro (at the time AND in hindsight), Staal's clearly diminishing physical attributes, already a much better player in McDonagh in front of him which would always limit his minutes, and the fact that if you read between the lines Staal was babysat by Stralman the prior season, and wasn't continuing that unless we got another elite RHD for him. Which would still make the deal pointless.

This doesn't really match how I remember that time. During AV's first season, this team had LD depth of McD, Staal, MDZ, Moore, with Skjei YEARS away. The decision was never Staal or Skjei. The decision was Staal or MDZ. We had three top 4 LD, and one needed to go.

I was in favor of moving Staal and keeping MDZ (who, when played on his proper side, always played his best hockey on that 2nd pair when filling in for Staal). People complain about MDZ's play in AV's first year, but at least he had a reason for it. Staal played even worse (he was our worst defenseman--bar none--from the start of that season until around January).

But then they traded Del Zotto. From that point, you KNEW that Staal had to get paid. That's probably part of the reason he got as much as he did. He knew the Rangers couldn't walk away. By the time he re-signed, his play had rebounded (and that season was the start of several years of "awful Staal" vs "all-star Staal" inconsistency). If you let Staal walk, who plays the second pair? Moore by that point had shown that he was barely a 3rd pair guy at best. Erixon was gone. Skjei was YEARS away.

It was either pay Staal, bring in a stop-gap player (in which case you would have a bottom pair LD on 2 of 3 pairs, and be royally boned if McD ever got hurt), or go fishing in free agency.

The Rangers went with the devil they knew. And from the moment of the Del Zotto trade, that was, realistically, the only option they had.

 

[Ola]

It's going to be great to see how Buch, Vesey, Day, Kovacs, and Stromwall do.

We could be looking at a top 2 team in the tournament this year, our offense is pretty damn good.

Hoping they stream some coverage of this but I doubt they will.

Defense is far from great, but possibly the best forward group that I can remember that we had there, at least if you don't look at old roster "in hindsight"...

 

[FLYLine27*]

Defense is far from great, but possibly the best forward group that I can remember that we had there, at least if you don't look at old roster "in hindsight"...

Yea, defense is pretty meh (3 who could be pretty good though)...wildcard will be Halverson. If he plays up as good as he can, then the defense might get bailed out.

 

[TheTakedown]

As for the weak depth on the right side, well, it's pretty terrible as it is anyways...you could always use Clendenning or Paliotta if Honka isn't ready and you don't have to "worry' as much about ruining them

Clendenning has lots of NHL experience too. Good call.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Clendenning has lots of NHL experience too. Good call.

Completely forgot about Clendenning.

 

[aufheben]

I feel like you're missing my point...

I was just using Trouba as a name to make a point. Not as an actual suggestion.

I edited my post to make it a bit clearer.

Sorry bud wasn't havin a go at you; Trouba is mentioned pretty often here and I don't really see the Jets and Rangers being great trading partners.

 

[Levitate]

I mean he hasn't proven to be a particularly good option at the NHL level yet but he's still an option. Depends on how management wants to view this year in terms of "gotta keep a strong lineup to compete" versus being willing to take a few lumps in spots to hopefully be better in a year or two

 

[Ghost of jas]

This doesn't really match how I remember that time. During AV's first season, this team had LD depth of McD, Staal, MDZ, Moore, with Skjei YEARS away. The decision was never Staal or Skjei. The decision was Staal or MDZ. We had three top 4 LD, and one needed to go.

I was in favor of moving Staal and keeping MDZ (who, when played on his proper side, always played his best hockey on that 2nd pair when filling in for Staal). People complain about MDZ's play in AV's first year, but at least he had a reason for it. Staal played even worse (he was our worst defenseman--bar none--from the start of that season until around January).

But then they traded Del Zotto. From that point, you KNEW that Staal had to get paid. That's probably part of the reason he got as much as he did. He knew the Rangers couldn't walk away. By the time he re-signed, his play had rebounded (and that season was the start of several years of "awful Staal" vs "all-star Staal" inconsistency). If you let Staal walk, who plays the second pair? Moore by that point had shown that he was barely a 3rd pair guy at best. Erixon was gone. Skjei was YEARS away.

It was either pay Staal, bring in a stop-gap player (in which case you would have a bottom pair LD on 2 of 3 pairs, and be royally boned if McD ever got hurt), or go fishing in free agency.

The Rangers went with the devil they knew. And from the moment of the Del Zotto trade, that was, realistically, the only option they had.

That was the prior year. The dilemmas in AV's 1st year were the Callahan and Girardi contract's, as well as Stralman's upcoming free agency. The Staal issue was prior to the deadline deal for Yandle.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Sorry bud wasn't havin a go at you; Trouba is mentioned pretty often here and I don't really see the Jets and Rangers being great trading partners.

Agreed. It is highly unlikely a trade is made unless a third team is involved and those trades are pretty rare.

 

[Kovalev27]

When Staal was feeding Sidney Crosby his lunch up until last season there's no one here that wanted him gone. Really unfair to go back and say that contract was a mistake. He was signed at a discount and playing solid shut down hockey as was Girardi not to mention they absolutely earned those deals with what they did for this organization. Skjei was barely out the womb at the time.

What should have happened was Gorton doing everything he could to move Staal the minute Yandle came on the scene. Staal should have been dealt for pennies on the dollar and Yandle kept.

However again the right side is the side that needs help short term and long term. So if we let Yandle go because the plan is Shattenkirk then fine.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

I was for moving girardi and Callahan for futures. Just because our cupboard was so bare at that time.. I always thought stralman couldn't played with mcdonagh and once we got Klein I thought having both girardi and Klein was overkill

 

[Savant]

I was for moving girardi and Callahan for futures. Just because our cupboard was so bare at that time.. I always thought stralman couldn't played with mcdonagh and once we got Klein I thought having both girardi and Klein was overkill

Choosing Girardi over Stralman has been the team's worst move since the lockout. By the errors involving both Staals

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Choosing Girardi over Stralman has been the team's worst move since the lockout. By the errors involving both Staals

This is a false equivalency. Giving Girardi that big contract at the 2014 trade deadline was one of the worst moves. That was an independent move and had little to do with Stralman. In hindsight, the Rangers should have either traded Girardi or made him play out the rest of the season without an extension.

Fast forward to the summer and the more accurate "choice" was letting Stralman walk and signing the corpse of Boyle. Although I'll always contend that we dont know what really went on with the Stralman negotiations. 5/22M in Tampa is A LOT different than 5/22M in NY. The narrative that the Rangers just simply let him go and choose a much poorer players over him is a little too simplistic for me.

 

[silverfish]

This is a false equivalency. Giving Girardi that big contract at the 2014 trade deadline was one of the worst moves. That was an independent move and had little to do with Stralman. In hindsight, the Rangers should have either traded Girardi or made him play out the rest of the season without an extension.

Fast forward to the summer and the more accurate "choice" was letting Stralman walk and signing the corpse of Boyle. Although I'll always contend that we dont know what really went on with the Stralman negotiations. 5/22M in Tampa is A LOT different than 5/22M in NY. The narrative that the Rangers just simply let him go and choose a much poorer players over him is a little too simplistic for me.

Yep. Rangers had every opportunity to sign Girardi and Stralman. The opportunity they did not have was signing Boyle + Stralman.

 

[B17 Apricots]

This is a false equivalency. Giving Girardi that big contract at the 2014 trade deadline was one of the worst moves. That was an independent move and had little to do with Stralman. In hindsight, the Rangers should have either traded Girardi or made him play out the rest of the season without an extension.

Fast forward to the summer and the more accurate "choice" was letting Stralman walk and signing the corpse of Boyle. Although I'll always contend that we dont know what really went on with the Stralman negotiations. 5/22M in Tampa is A LOT different than 5/22M in NY. The narrative that the Rangers just simply let him go and choose a much poorer players over him is a little too simplistic for me.

Agreed, it had nothing to do with girardi vs stralman but came down to stralman vs boyle. Boyle expressed interest to come here and is likely they thought he was an upgrade over stralman at 500k less. At the time it was questionable and today it was certainly the wrong move.

 

[Kovalev27]

Rangers chose what they thought would be boyles offense over what they thought was a peaked stralman who had brought us ZERO offensively.

It was a calculated risk that failed. They can't all be homeruns.

 

[Crease]

The way things appeared to me, the organization's plan all along was to extend Girardi and Staal. And why not--they were rocks and effective in neutralizing Crosby and Ovechkin in the playoffs. The organization's dilemma was actually whether to extend Stralman or sign Boyle. The determining factors appeared to be that Stralman wanted at least 4 years, the Rangers wanted a shorter contract for added flexibility in dealing with the prospects and bridge deals a couple years away, and that the Rangers needed to replace Brad Richards atop the power play. They saw Boyle as killing two birds with one stone. But in fact, he killed the organization. Womp.

 

[Inferno]

heres my thoughts on the proposed Honka + Nich for Zucc deal...if i was sitting in Dallas' spot, and that deal was offered to me, i'd RUN with it...i think Zucc is a much better player than either/both and its unlikely either of them ever reaches what Zucc will do..so from dallas' standpoint it makes sense. From a Rangers standpoint...it makes less sense..but its still an ok deal.

Id want to downgrade on a bad contract if that were the proposed deal.

IE, take back fewer years by sending back Staal or Girardi.

can we take back a defenseman who has 1,2,3 years on roughly the same cash? thats how i would look to make it a more fair deal from the rangers POV...its not a terrible deal, and id think about it...but when you consider the other team would be dancing for joy because they probably just became the top team in the west by giving up futures while still getting back an asset in his prime on a sweetheart of a contract....then you should look to make it a bit better.

 

[Ghost of jas]

When Staal was feeding Sidney Crosby his lunch up until last season there's no one here that wanted him gone. Really unfair to go back and say that contract was a mistake. He was signed at a discount and playing solid shut down hockey as was Girardi not to mention they absolutely earned those deals with what they did for this organization. Skjei was barely out the womb at the time.

What should have happened was Gorton doing everything he could to move Staal the minute Yandle came on the scene. Staal should have been dealt for pennies on the dollar and Yandle kept.

However again the right side is the side that needs help short term and long term. So if we let Yandle go because the plan is Shattenkirk then fine.

I love ya, Kovy, but you continue to make these blanket statements which aren't true. Speaking for myself, I wanted all three of Callahan, Staal and Girardi moved when they were up for free agency, due to many of the concerns that are now facing the Rangers. In fact, you and I argued about both the Girardi and Staal deals on both boards we frequent. I feared all three breaking down due to the style of play. I will admit I wasn't as precient about Stralman. But, there were concerns with all three players, concerns which have been borne out.

 

[Kovalev27]

I wanted Callahan gone as you know. And for a while in fact lol.

But I def was in support of both Staal and Girardi unlike others I have no problem admitting that. I do know u wanted Girardi gone for vatanen. Which would have been a great deal in hindsight we just don't know if that were ever on the table.

 

[smoneil]

That was the prior year. The dilemmas in AV's 1st year were the Callahan and Girardi contract's, as well as Stralman's upcoming free agency. The Staal issue was prior to the deadline deal for Yandle.

You're right. I hadn't checked, but I think the point still stands a bit. I definitely remember making the argument during AV's first season that we had to choose between MDZ and Staal. The Yandle deal happened two months after Staal's extension. You have to wonder whether they would have extended Staal if they had known they would be able to get Yandle.

January is also an odd time to extend someone, isn't it? I wonder if Staal's camp gave the team a deadline.

 

[Ghost of jas]

You're right. I hadn't checked, but I think the point still stands a bit. I definitely remember making the argument during AV's first season that we had to choose between MDZ and Staal. The Yandle deal happened two months after Staal's extension. You have to wonder whether they would have extended Staal if they had known they would be able to get Yandle.

January is also an odd time to extend someone, isn't it? I wonder if Staal's camp gave the team a deadline.

My belief is that had Sather known he'd be able to acquire Yandle, Staal would never have been re-upped. The Rangers could have matched the Hunwick deal, let Staal move on, give Yandle a slight increase over the money Staal got, and eased Skjei in while phasing out Hunwick.

 

[bernmeister]

Mats Zuccarello to the Dallas Stars for Valeri Nichushkin and Julius Honka. Jeff Gorton wants to get younger with more speed and skill. The Rangers acquire players with more upside than Zuccarello. Same premise as the Mika Zibanejad trade. Maybe the Rangers and Stars can expand the trade to include Kevin Klein who would give the Stars an experienced right handed shooting D. The Rangers sign Nichushkin to a 2 year bridge deal. The Rangers gain a forward with more upside than any Rangers forward. They acquire the elusive right handed shooting D which has seemed to be a target of their's for a while. The Rangers were linked to Tyson Barrie and Sami Vatanen before they became NHL regulars. The Rangers finally fill that need without needing to spend a fortune on an older D. Zibanejad gives the Rangers a big young right handed shooting center which is something they didn't have on the team or in the system. Nichushkin and Honka just continue that philosophy. Acquire high end impact players in trades by giving up some really good players signing to good contracts. Add those young players to the Rangers young players. In the meantime,keep your picks and add more young players. Add a pick in every trade. Jeff Gorton Rebuild 1.01.

We want Gurianov and Honka, with nichuskin as a throw in discounted, so the most we consider adding was a conditional pick, IF he returns from KHL, IF his numbers pan out.

Considered this w/Nash as upgrade on Hemsky, but think using Zuc seals Gurianov which is important; then we start w/Nash and have options to move him as his #s look good.

Zuc, Raanta, Calle Andersson, Halverson and Bernhardt
for
Gurianov, Honka, Nichushkin, cap dump Hemsky. Conditional 2nd rounder in 2019 to NY IF Nic has busted by then

The rangers aren't trading zucc or Nash for a dman that isn't ready to play at a high level in the NHL. This team is not in rebuild mode. They wanted to get younger but the core is still intact.

Won't see any type of rebuild while hank is in top form and they're a playoff team. This honka stuff happens in the vacuum that is HF Boards and no where else.

Please stop with the WIN NOW posture that is and has been ruining our club.
Build.
Build some more.
Then MAYBE splurge

Being UFA/RFA has nothing to do with whether you need to be protected or not for expansion, AFAIK

Doesn't it have to do with a certain number of games played?

I am not sure, but I think the key is the date the contract ends, which I thought was last game played/final SC game, but I have been told ends with new NHL year on July 1, which is after the exp. draft.
so theoretically, IMO has to wait until July 2 to sign.

LV can try to sign him as UFA like anyone else at any time, but his UFA status supersedes team need to protect prior

 

[Levitate]

When Staal was feeding Sidney Crosby his lunch up until last season there's no one here that wanted him gone. Really unfair to go back and say that contract was a mistake. He was signed at a discount and playing solid shut down hockey as was Girardi not to mention they absolutely earned those deals with what they did for this organization. Skjei was barely out the womb at the time.

What should have happened was Gorton doing everything he could to move Staal the minute Yandle came on the scene. Staal should have been dealt for pennies on the dollar and Yandle kept.

However again the right side is the side that needs help short term and long term. So if we let Yandle go because the plan is Shattenkirk then fine.

The thing about Staal's contract was that it came after his eye injury....we all just assumed and hoped he'd be back up to speed, but unfortunately he never has consistently returned to that level. So it might have been a bit much for the Rangers to do that extension.

It also came when he was playing with Stralman, which certainly made him look better. Unfortunately it all still comes back to Stralman in some ways and what was a bad decision by management to let him walk. I've said before that I can understand some of the reasoning (Stralman did not produce offensively for NY at all in regards to points scored) but the overall evaluation of the defense at that point was poor and led to the situation we're in now.

And people say the choice wasn't between Girardi and Stralman, and sure it wasn't a direct choice, but it still did boil down to evaluating Girardi as more valuable than Stralman and making the decision to keep him long term and letting Stralman walk. It could be argued the Rangers let Stralman go because they didn't think having two defensive low point RHD in the lineup was a good plan and they would rather keep Girardi.

We want Gurianov and Honka, with nichuskin as a throw in discounted, so the most we consider adding was a conditional pick, IF he returns from KHL, IF his numbers pan out.

He's not "in" the KHL