Speculation: Offseason Thread XVII: Trade a spade for a jade

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mandiblesofdoom

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May 24, 2012
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This is a false equivalency. Giving Girardi that big contract at the 2014 trade deadline was one of the worst moves. That was an independent move and had little to do with Stralman. In hindsight, the Rangers should have either traded Girardi or made him play out the rest of the season without an extension.

The Rangers may not have thought they were choosing between Stralman and Girardi at the time, but they were.

Once Girardi was signed, there was less money for Stralman and less of a perceived need ("we already have the great Girardi on the right side, a proven #1, let's not tie ourselves up for years with Stralman, it's not necessary").

The best move was to sign Stralman during the year, so they would not feel forced to give Girardi the big deal. Of course, to reach that point, they would have had to have accurately assessed each player, which I bet they didn't.

Choosing Girardi over Stralman damaged our cup hopes.
 

mandiblesofdoom

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May 24, 2012
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When Staal was feeding Sidney Crosby his lunch up until last season there's no one here that wanted him gone. Really unfair to go back and say that contract was a mistake. He was signed at a discount and playing solid shut down hockey as was Girardi not to mention they absolutely earned those deals with what they did for this organization.

The only issue I have with this is, "they deserved the contracts for what they did."

Giving big contracts to players exiting their prime for what they already did is not a winning strategy. You can't win like that. the players pulling down big paychecks have to be big performers.

Of course, it's always a risk, you never know how a player will age. So it's possible to see how teams get stuck with bad contracts. But they can't go into negotiations thinking, "this guy has been a big name for us, so even though he has an eye injury, we should pay him like a top-two defensemen."

I wonder if they bought their hype about how good the defense was. Seems like a failure of evaluation to me. They didn't know who was really good.

Anyway, I'll try to shut up about the 2014 defenseman debacle. It seems like a valuable thing for execs to study and learn from.
 

Savant

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Oct 3, 2013
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Rangers chose what they thought would be boyles offense over what they thought was a peaked stralman who had brought us ZERO offensively.

It was a calculated risk that failed. They can't all be homeruns.

I disagree.

You probably know more than me but I really think Boyle was coming in either way on that short term non-prohibitive contract. Girardi got the top pairing, long term money, that Stralman should have.
 

Avery16

Shake my hand, fatso
Jun 28, 2015
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The Rangers may not have thought they were choosing between Stralman and Girardi at the time, but they were.

Once Girardi was signed, there was less money for Stralman and less of a perceived need ("we already have the great Girardi on the right side, a proven #1, let's not tie ourselves up for years with Stralman, it's not necessary").

The best move was to sign Stralman during the year, so they would not feel forced to give Girardi the big deal. Of course, to reach that point, they would have had to have accurately assessed each player, which I bet they didn't.

Choosing Girardi over Stralman damaged our cup hopes.

This might be true, and Stralman has lived up to his contract, but his ask at the time he made it, was ridiculous, given his performance up to that point.

No good GM would have earmarked the 5/5 that he wanted from his current team who took the chance on him and developed him. Even TB didn't give him that, and what they did give him was a huge risk, one that has obviously paid off in spades.
 

Ghost of jas

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Feb 27, 2002
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The thing about Staal's contract was that it came after his eye injury....we all just assumed and hoped he'd be back up to speed, but unfortunately he never has consistently returned to that level. So it might have been a bit much for the Rangers to do that extension.

It also came when he was playing with Stralman, which certainly made him look better. Unfortunately it all still comes back to Stralman in some ways and what was a bad decision by management to let him walk. I've said before that I can understand some of the reasoning (Stralman did not produce offensively for NY at all in regards to points scored) but the overall evaluation of the defense at that point was poor and led to the situation we're in now.

And people say the choice wasn't between Girardi and Stralman, and sure it wasn't a direct choice, but it still did boil down to evaluating Girardi as more valuable than Stralman and making the decision to keep him long term and letting Stralman walk. It could be argued the Rangers let Stralman go because they didn't think having two defensive low point RHD in the lineup was a good plan and they would rather keep Girardi.

This is the read I got in the situation. Two other things: 1) The Callahan camp mention how the Rangers were willing to overpay for outside free agents, but not pony up for the home grown talent. That had to have some effect on the negotiations for Girardi and Staal. 2). Girardi, (as opposed to Stralman), was a valued leader in the locker room.

I think too much emotion on the part of Ranger management may have played a too big a role in the negotiations of both Girardi and Staal.
 

Beer League Sniper

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Apr 27, 2010
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This is the read I got in the situation. Two other things: 1) The Callahan camp mention how the Rangers were willing to overpay for outside free agents, but not pony up for the home grown talent. That had to have some effect on the negotiations for Girardi and Staal. 2). Girardi, (as opposed to Stralman), was a valued leader in the locker room.

I think too much emotion on the part of Ranger management may have played a too big a role in the negotiations of both Girardi and Staal.

As soon as I heard that crap leaking from Callahan's camp, I knew he was looking to simply cash in. He didn't want to give the team a single cent of hometown discount. I'm so glad we didn't end up giving him that bloated turd of a contract.

On Girardi and Staal, it was different. Even though I think those contracts are pure cancer, at the time, they undoubtedly took discounts. How do you cut ties with a player who has grown up in your organization, who wants to stay, and is willing to back it up by taking less? It's much easier to cut ties with a guy like Callahan who can't stay healthy, yet wants to wring every last cent out of his final NHL contract.

I thought the Staal contract was much worse when it was signed. Girardi was an ironman, and even though he was a poor example of a modern possession defenseman, his numbers weren't that bad. We had zero depth on the right side of our D. Staal, as it turns out, is actually a better value at the moment. I think the bigger problem is that we should have kept only one of them.

Almost every team has a bad contract on D. You never know when players are going to fall off a cliff. You have guys like Dan Boyle that can play effectively well into their mid-30s, yet Girardi looks done at 31.

Props to the posters that saw this coming, but I honestly didn't think there was any way things would go this poorly with Staal and Girardi.
 

RangerGuru

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May 14, 2013
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Everyone is talking Trouba for the RFA problem - whatabout Myers? Should be cheaper to acquire, big RHD
 

KingDeathMetal

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Jun 7, 2015
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God, can you imagine if we traded Girardi at the '14 deadline and signed Stralman the following summer? At the time many people still thought highly of Girardi, the advanced stats narrative around him hadn't totally set in yet. I think we could have easily gotten a 1st or a really good prospect for him.

Considering how bad he was in the '14 Finals, we're talking about possibly getting another game, maybe two in that series. And possibly returning to the Finals in '15, minus Girardi plus Stralman. Could have still signed Boyle, too.

Top 6 in 2015:

McDonagh-Stralman
Yandle-Klein
Staal-Boyle

**** it, I'm going on NHL '16 and trading Stralman back to us. Can't take this **** no more.
 
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Kovalev27

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I still say both guys bounce back this year. Don't think either was very healthy and to be fair most of this team looked wiped out last year.

I really blame AV for playing Girardi on a broken knee cap after coming in already banged up from the previous two Cup runs. Staal too never looked right.

I honestly expect both to bounce back and be solid. Not top pairing solid but solid nonetheless. This team needed a collective time out and got one with the first round exit.
 

Ghost of jas

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Feb 27, 2002
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I still say both guys bounce back this year. Don't think either was very healthy and to be fair most of this team looked wiped out last year.

I really blame AV for playing Girardi on a broken knee cap after coming in already banged up from the previous two Cup runs. Staal too never looked right.

I honestly expect both to bounce back and be solid. Not top pairing solid but solid nonetheless. This team needed a collective time out and got one with the first round exit.

Maybe Staal, but, I have very little hope for Girardi. Getting healthy doesn't stop his awful handling of the puck and his inability to transition the puck out of the defensive zone.
 

emodwarf

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Oct 12, 2009
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The Rangers may not have thought they were choosing between Stralman and Girardi at the time, but they were.

Once Girardi was signed, there was less money for Stralman and less of a perceived need ("we already have the great Girardi on the right side, a proven #1, let's not tie ourselves up for years with Stralman, it's not necessary").

I can't remember where I read it, but didn't someone from the Rangers organization say at the time they were choosing Boyle over Stralman, not Girardi over Stralman? In that case, they were locked on for re-signing Girardi, and chose Boyle as the hopeful RD puck mover instead of Stralman.

In hindsight, yeah it was bad either way (Boyle was already backsliding in SJ). But I can see why they were hesitant to re-sign Stralman based on a limited sample of him performing well after years of being a journeyman plagued by health issues (that the Rangers medical team was able to solve). Bummer.
 

Bleed Ranger Blue

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Jul 18, 2006
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The Rangers may not have thought they were choosing between Stralman and Girardi at the time, but they were.

Once Girardi was signed, there was less money for Stralman and less of a perceived need ("we already have the great Girardi on the right side, a proven #1, let's not tie ourselves up for years with Stralman, it's not necessary").

The best move was to sign Stralman during the year, so they would not feel forced to give Girardi the big deal. Of course, to reach that point, they would have had to have accurately assessed each player, which I bet they didn't.

Choosing Girardi over Stralman damaged our cup hopes.

How do you reconcile that there was "less money for Stralman" when the Rangers turned around and signed Boyle for almost exactly the same annual amount that Stralman eventually signed for?

"Choosing" Girardi over Stralman is a nice hindsight narrative, but it really wasn't the reality of the situation in the spring of 2014.
 

Glen Sathers Cigar

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Feb 4, 2013
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God, can you imagine if we traded Girardi at the '14 deadline and signed Stralman the following summer? At the time many people still thought highly of Girardi, the advanced stats narrative around him hadn't totally set in yet. I think we could have easily gotten a 1st or a really good prospect for him.

Considering how bad he was in the '14 Finals, we're talking about possibly getting another game, maybe two in that series. And possibly returning to the Finals in '15, minus Girardi plus Stralman. Could have still signed Boyle, too.

Top 6 in 2015:

McDonagh-Stralman
Yandle-Klein
Staal-Boyle

**** it, I'm going on NHL '16 and trading Stralman back to us. Can't take this **** no more.

That's also ignoring the fact that he was good the first 3 series, particularly the 1st and 3rd rounds. Butterfly effect- maybe we trade Girardi at that trade deadline and don't even make it out of the 1st round.

What would our top 6 have been in that 2014 run?

Klein played every bit like a 3rd pairing guy that run, part of the reason Staal-Stralman was so good was that it was a 1-2 punch with McD-Girardi.
 

Bleed Ranger Blue

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Jul 18, 2006
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That's also ignoring the fact that he was good the first 3 series, particularly the 1st and 3rd rounds. Butterfly effect- maybe we trade Girardi at that trade deadline and don't even make it out of the 1st round.

What would our top 6 have been in that 2014 run?

Klein played every bit like a 3rd pairing guy that run, part of the reason Staal-Stralman was so good was that it was a 1-2 punch with McD-Girardi.

Well said. Its funny how the perception of a declining player works. All of a sudden, 2016 Girardi is 2014 Girardi and the main culprit of why we don't have the mighty Stralman and a cup. :sarcasm:
 

TheDirtyH

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Jul 5, 2013
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That's also ignoring the fact that he was good the first 3 series, particularly the 1st and 3rd rounds. Butterfly effect- maybe we trade Girardi at that trade deadline and don't even make it out of the 1st round.

What would our top 6 have been in that 2014 run?

Klein played every bit like a 3rd pairing guy that run, part of the reason Staal-Stralman was so good was that it was a 1-2 punch with McD-Girardi.

and that the shut-down fourth line actually shut **** down, and that we had overall 4 lines of very solid possession players.
 

Tawnos

A guy with a bass
Sep 10, 2004
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Charlotte, NC
How do you reconcile that there was "less money for Stralman" when the Rangers turned around and signed Boyle for almost exactly the same annual amount that Stralman eventually signed for?

"Choosing" Girardi over Stralman is a nice hindsight narrative, but it really wasn't the reality of the situation in the spring of 2014.

The choice was Boyle over Stralman specifically because they got the same amount of money. The Rangers didn't want to give the term Stralman was asking for, even if it was for less money, simple as that.

You remember the cap crunch the Rangers were in at the beginning of this summer? How we had to let Yandle go and couldn't pay a D as much as Boyle was making even if we wanted to?

That's exactly why Stralman was allowed to leave. With him here, the Rangers would have had to trade one of their important forward RFAs again this summer.
 

Vinny DeAngelo

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Mar 17, 2014
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and that the shut-down fourth line actually shut **** down, and that we had overall 4 lines of very solid possession players.

Ever since we got glass and let Boyle walk we haven't had an semi effective fourth line and have done next to nothing to change that
 

Vinny DeAngelo

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Mar 17, 2014
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I think the real starting event of all this is the msl trade...

Yea what a run we had but that instantly cut out window down and explains why we're in such a bad place now...
If we have those 2 firsts back, trade Callahan for the rumored package from San Jose, keep stralman.

Then we have a solid top 4 before girardi collapses, a much better system, and maybe we don't make the yandle trade and we have duclair making it much easier to lose a guy like Miller or hagelin. Just a thought
 

Kovalev27

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Stralman wanted 4 mil a year and never even got a phone call. As I said We gave it to Boyle had very little to do with Girardi.
 

Vinny DeAngelo

Jimmy Easy to defend
Mar 17, 2014
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I still say both guys bounce back this year. Don't think either was very healthy and to be fair most of this team looked wiped out last year.

I really blame AV for playing Girardi on a broken knee cap after coming in already banged up from the previous two Cup runs. Staal too never looked right.

I honestly expect both to bounce back and be solid. Not top pairing solid but solid nonetheless. This team needed a collective time out and got one with the first round exit.
I think if staal has a comeback year he's gone by the trade deadline...
 

rangers1314

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May 9, 2007
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Stralman wanted 4 mil a year and never even got a phone call. As I said We gave it to Boyle had very little to do with Girardi.

I could be wrong, but I think it was more an issue with years for Stralman. NYR offered him something like 3/11 during the season, which they clearly turned down. But I think had they come back with something like 4/14-15, he may have taken it. I think he wanted that 4th year.
 
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