Speculation: Offseason Thread XVII: Trade a spade for a jade
- Thread starter BBKers
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Number 4 is dumb. They are a 3 lines deep team with a 4th line that should be good.
Their depth has taken a hit the past couple of seasons? Because they traded Hagelin? Boo. I guess your best argument is that penciling in Buch and Vesey means you lack depth but the Pens being able to roll out Phil Kessel on their "third" line is far far far far from the norm in the NHL.
Their depth has taken a hit the past couple of seasons? Because they traded Hagelin? Boo. I guess your best argument is that penciling in Buch and Vesey means you lack depth but the Pens being able to roll out Phil Kessel on their "third" line is far far far far from the norm in the NHL.
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
If people want a reminder of how bad the Eric Staal trade was, ESPN's Prospect rankings came out today.
Saarela was ranked the 25th best prospect from the 2015 draft a year after the draft, but McDavid, Eichel and Hanifin all weren't in the rankings because they've graduated from prospect status, so he's really 28th best from the 2015 draft in the opinion of ESPN's prospect expert Corey Pronman. I decided to compare Saarela's position in Pronman's rankings a year after his draft to Buch and Duclair's position in Pronman's rankings a year after their drafts. They were all 3rd rounders in their drafts. Buch was 10th, but 6 guys already in the NHL weren't on the list so really 16th, and Duclair was not in the top 100, but he was in the honorable mentions, so somewhere between 34-36th, but when you consider 6 players were already in the NHL, somewhere between 40-42.
To recap, Buch was 16th, Duclair 40-42, and Saarela 28th. Every single person here should expect Saarela have a long career for the Canes as a top 6 forward. He is now beginning to gain attention as a really good prospect. All the people saying he was too short or this or that, so he won't make it to the NHL were trying their best to rationalize a very bad trade. We had another 3rd round steal, but we traded that player away.
Saarela was ranked the 25th best prospect from the 2015 draft a year after the draft, but McDavid, Eichel and Hanifin all weren't in the rankings because they've graduated from prospect status, so he's really 28th best from the 2015 draft in the opinion of ESPN's prospect expert Corey Pronman. I decided to compare Saarela's position in Pronman's rankings a year after his draft to Buch and Duclair's position in Pronman's rankings a year after their drafts. They were all 3rd rounders in their drafts. Buch was 10th, but 6 guys already in the NHL weren't on the list so really 16th, and Duclair was not in the top 100, but he was in the honorable mentions, so somewhere between 34-36th, but when you consider 6 players were already in the NHL, somewhere between 40-42.
To recap, Buch was 16th, Duclair 40-42, and Saarela 28th. Every single person here should expect Saarela have a long career for the Canes as a top 6 forward. He is now beginning to gain attention as a really good prospect. All the people saying he was too short or this or that, so he won't make it to the NHL were trying their best to rationalize a very bad trade. We had another 3rd round steal, but we traded that player away.
rangers1314
Registered User
they did, but he's never been able to maintain that level consistently since.
Glen Sathers Cigar
Sather 4 Ever
Maybe if you keep complaining about it, word will get to Ron Francis and he'll give him back to us.
Listen, it sucks to lose Saarela, especially in hindsight, but the Rangers made the trade and it's over. No need to constantly lament over the loss of a very good prospect, especially because he's still an unknown NHL quantity. He could go on to have a long career as a top 6 forward as you've stated or he could never quite make it and flame out, or he could be a solid middle 6er like Jesper Fast which would not be worth crying over. We don't know. Obviously you don't want to throw quality prospects away, but Gorton made the trade and Saarela is a Hurricane now. I think you've (all of us) had ample time to come to terms with that.
rangers1314
Registered User
Amazing Kreiderman
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2011
- 45,008
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I never agreed with him being captain. I always thought Stepan was more suited to be the new captain. McDonagh seems to suffer from the same problem as Leetch as a captain. His general play is declining and it seems to put too much pressure on him
I don't think his general play is declining at all, but he absolutely has to stay healthy. The series of injuries has had a pretty negative impact on him IMO. Shoulder injuries, the foot injury, concussion...he needs a strong healthy season and not have to get back up to speed again after a significant injury every year. He still flashes a fantastic upside when he can stay healthy.
I think he's just under more scrutiny since being named captain and people immediately start looking for the "did he struggle a bit here? must be because he can't handle being captain". I think people start seeing what they expect to see.
Also during that time period Girardi has continued to decline and it's becoming harder and harder for McDonagh to do it all himself out there.
e: I'm not going to make arguments about him being another Keith or Doughty, but Keith and Doughty have significantly better support than McDonagh has had. They play with some other extremely talented players.
Raspewtin
Stay at home defenseman hater
- May 30, 2013
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Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
In ESPN's prospect rankings, Shestyorkin was the 10th ranked goalie, but two of the goalies in the top 10 are already NHL goalies, Murray and Vasilevskiy. He's really 8th of non-NHL goalies. Pronman made a rankings of the top 10 goalie prospects in January, and Shestyorkin wasn't in the top 10. He also made a list a year ago, and Shestyorkin wasn't in the top ten, instead he listed him 13th. So Shestyorkin has went in the opinion of Pronman from 13th to 10th in one year, but he didn't give any honorable mentions or next five in his January rankings, so we don't know where he had him ranked in January. In the poll section of HF, Shestyorkin was ranked the 7th best goalie prospect, but that section didn't count Murray and Vasilevskiy, so he really would've been 9th if you are using criteria that counts those two.
Buchnevich was 14th in Pronman's prospect rankings last August. In his January rankings, Buchnevich was 7th. Now he's ranked 30th. In the January rankings, Buchnevich was only a few weeks into his time with SKA, and Pronman was not downgrading him for his time with SKA. Now that he finished the season with SKA, it seems clear that Pronman is downgrading him for his time with SKA. We all know what happened at SKA. They didn't want to give him consistent top 9 ice time for a lot of the time, and he was playing injured in the playoffs. I don't think its anything to be worried about. As long as AV doesn't treat Buch like SKA did, and actually wants to invest in Buchnevich's development as a hockey player, he should produce.
SKA is a complete developmental nightmare. Shestyorkin is right now going through the same things as Buch did. Last year he was the best goalie in the second best league in Russia, breaking single season goalie records in that league, and this season SKA has him as the back up, not even their starter. They'd rather start a guy who tried to play in the NHL, but wasn't good enough. Its not just Rangers prospects that they don't give much playing time. Devils 5th rounder from 2016 Yegor Rykov should've been a mid 2015 round draft pick. He has showcased incredible talent playing in the MHL, VHL and for Russia in international competitions, but he has only played 13 career KHL games, and even this season they aren't giving him a bigger role than he had last season. It should come as no surprise that Buchnevich dropped when he moved to a team that does a terrible job with young Russian players.
Buchnevich was 14th in Pronman's prospect rankings last August. In his January rankings, Buchnevich was 7th. Now he's ranked 30th. In the January rankings, Buchnevich was only a few weeks into his time with SKA, and Pronman was not downgrading him for his time with SKA. Now that he finished the season with SKA, it seems clear that Pronman is downgrading him for his time with SKA. We all know what happened at SKA. They didn't want to give him consistent top 9 ice time for a lot of the time, and he was playing injured in the playoffs. I don't think its anything to be worried about. As long as AV doesn't treat Buch like SKA did, and actually wants to invest in Buchnevich's development as a hockey player, he should produce.
SKA is a complete developmental nightmare. Shestyorkin is right now going through the same things as Buch did. Last year he was the best goalie in the second best league in Russia, breaking single season goalie records in that league, and this season SKA has him as the back up, not even their starter. They'd rather start a guy who tried to play in the NHL, but wasn't good enough. Its not just Rangers prospects that they don't give much playing time. Devils 5th rounder from 2016 Yegor Rykov should've been a mid 2015 round draft pick. He has showcased incredible talent playing in the MHL, VHL and for Russia in international competitions, but he has only played 13 career KHL games, and even this season they aren't giving him a bigger role than he had last season. It should come as no surprise that Buchnevich dropped when he moved to a team that does a terrible job with young Russian players.
DanielBrassard
It's all so tiresome
McD had an outstanding season last year. And I think if AV is smart and keeps Girardi away from him he'll be a top-10 D
DanielBrassard
It's all so tiresome
I get not wanting to give up pieces for Shatt in a trade, but if he's a FA I don't get the reluctance. How else are you getting a top-pair RHD for just money?
- Nov 2, 2011
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I think McDonagh's captaincy hindered his growth and steadiness. He tends to now more go as the team goes, like he bears the burden. I think having someone like Yandle around helped in that regard. Brad Richards helped with it too. I wonder how much Lundqvist leads in the locker room or if he is more of a do not disturb kind of guy.
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
I just don't think Gorton should get unanimous praise with no criticism. He's had a pretty good offseason, but he had an awful trade deadline that will likely hurt the team in the future. Its about more than just losing one good prospect. We also lost two second round picks. We didn't trade Keith Yandle who could've gotten us a lot back in return. The Rangers needed to be selling, not buying.
Even now, people lament that we need a RH PMD. So why wasn't Yandle shopped to Dallas at the trade deadline for Honka? Why wasn't he shopped to Washington for Bowey? Why wasn't he shopped to Detroit for Saarijarvi? Why wasn't he shopped to Tampa Bay for DeAngelo? What about the Isles for Pulock? What about Chicago for Pokka? What about LA for McKeown? San Jose for Roy?
There should've been plenty of options to get rid of Yandle, instead he kept Yandle. We lost in the first round.
Bad decisions were made. Gorton had an awful season last year. One good offseason doesn't completely make up for it. We are still a team with many problems.
FoxysExpensiveNYDigs
Boo Nieves Truther
Come on, bern. Skjei and Graves are FAR more likely to fall on their faces if forced into the roles you have them pegged for in this scenario than to properly develop. You seem to have this belief that all prospects need is lots of playing time to develop into their max potential. In truth, playing time is only a fraction of the equation. Most prospects need to be brought along slowly and be put in situations where they can succeed and gain confidence while receiving good coaching and working on their flaws. Just shoving Skjei into a #1D role would likely ruin him, or at least impede his development. Could Graves handle NHL 3rd pairing minutes? Maybe. Is it what's best for his development this year? Not at all. Graves dominating at the AHL level this year and being an injury call up/cup of coffee guy is a much better scenario for him, then maybe he challenges for that 3rd pairing spot next year.
For a guys that's always preaching "Trade the vets, play the youth," you sure seem to have a poor understanding of how prospects actually develop.
aufheben
#Norris4Fox
No you just sign the guy in the off-season if he wants to be here so bad.
Front load the **** out of the contract so he maximizes his TVM.
If you trade assets, you trade for that 22-23 year old ROCK in the making on that right side on the backend.
aufheben
#Norris4Fox
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