GDT: Offseason GDT II

[WHOneedsSOX]

So we're going to give 6x6 to Lucic, 7x7 to TT, then have ~$24M wrapped up in four wingers. How do we get a defensemen? In 2012, we had Brown and JW, Carter and Penner as top 6 wingers and did just fine.

You realize Brown and Williams both had 22 goals each that season and Carter is Carter i.e. a sniper/goal scorer. I'll give you Penner but that's one guy. Brown and Lewis? Neither guy belongs anywhere near the top 6.

What do you do to clear cap space? Trade the $6 million contract in the bottom 6 by doing whatever you can to move Brown. I obviously don't want Brown near the top 6 but if they could also move Gaborik and clear that cap space leaving them with $4-5 million for another defenseman. It's not just Lucic or Toffoli or defenseman. There are other options.

 

[Seventyx7]

Only 28 players hit 30 goals this year and we want to trade one that plays on a system based on low quality shots and second chance opportunities? Do you guys realize how difficult it is to score 30 goals while wearing black and silver? If you trade Toffoli for a defenseman and our D gets back on track, guess what? Now Dean has to make a move for more offense much like he did with Carter and Gaborik. It's rinse and repeat. Yes, Dean preaches building from the net out, but selling off a 23 year old, 30 goal scorer is about the dumbest decision the Kings can make right now, and it gives me PTSD flashbacks of Nick Beverly and Sam McMaster.

Don't think it's "selling off" if you get a 23 year old stud RHD in return.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Everyone loves Toffoli, including me. But we've gotten spoiled being stacked everywhere, now the tough decisions need to be made. I'd rather have the team weakness be on wing than having Schenn/Scuderi/Mcnabb get exposed again.

Best case would be letting Lucic walk and keeping TT (and somehow finding a miracle RHD somewhere else), but we all know DL isn't letting Lucic walk.

I see the opposite. The team isn't stacked at any position. This team is seriously lacking in depth at every position. And by depth I don't mean just bodies who are available, I'm talking about talent that can be considered NHLers next season.

There is nobody around internally who can replace Toffoli. I'd rather take my chances with the blueline as it is than to sacrifice a Toffoli in a desperation move.

 

[The Tikkanen]

Lewis is a UFA, as the White Sox announcer says "He gone". Some team will offer him more money and more ice time than the Kings can afford. The old argument "he should take less to stay here" is the argument from somebody who has never had any money in their bank account. If a job offer came along right now to 99.9% of people reading this offered more money and a better job it's being taken without thought. For some strange reason King fans think everybody should take less money to play here in an open market. Really makes no sense. This may be Lewis' last chance to sign a deal that can set him and his family up for life.

 

[Seventyx7]

You realize Brown and Williams both had 22 goals each that season and Carter is Carter i.e. a sniper/goal scorer. I'll give you Penner but that's one guy. Brown and Lewis? Neither guy belongs anywhere near the top 6.

What do you do to clear cap space? Trade the $6 million contract in the bottom 6 by doing whatever you can to move Brown. I obviously don't want Brown near the top 6 but if they could also move Gaborik and clear that cap space leaving them with $4-5 million for another defenseman. It's not just Lucic or Toffoli or defenseman. There are other options.

Pearson-Kopi-Gaborik
Lucic-Carter-Brown


Muzzin-DD
A-Mart- Trouba (or Larsson, or some other TT RHD equivalent).

Hey, in my opinion that looks better than what we had out there v SJ (even if A-Mart was playing). If we can fill that spot while keeping TT then perfect, I don't see how we have the assets to do that though.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

Only 28 players hit 30 goals this year and we want to trade one that plays on a system based on low quality shots and second chance opportunities? Do you guys realize how difficult it is to score 30 goals while wearing black and silver? If you trade Toffoli for a defenseman and our D gets back on track, guess what? Now Dean has to make a move for more offense much like he did with Carter and Gaborik. It's rinse and repeat. Yes, Dean preaches building from the net out, but selling off a 23 year old, 30 goal scorer is about the dumbest decision the Kings can make right now, and it gives me PTSD flashbacks of Nick Beverly and Sam McMaster.

Carter, Gaborik, and Kopitar have done it a whole 2 times in 16 full seasons combined (both by Kopitar) while Toffoli has already done it once in 3 full(ish) seasons.

 

[Seventyx7]

I see the opposite. The team isn't stacked at any position. This team is seriously lacking in depth at every position. And by depth I don't mean just bodies who are available, I'm talking about talent that can be considered NHLers next season.

There is nobody around internally who can replace Toffoli. I'd rather take my chances with the blueline as it is than to sacrifice a Toffoli in a desperation move.

Fair enough. By no means am I bashing Toffoli. You may be right nobody can replace Toffoli, but nobody can replace Voynov either. Being short a top 4 dmen hurts more than being short a top 6 winger.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

Pearson-Kopi-Gaborik
Lucic-Carter-Brown


Muzzin-DD
A-Mart- Trouba (or Larsson, or some other TT RHD equivalent).

Hey, in my opinion that looks better than what we had out there v SJ (even if A-Mart was playing). If we can fill that spot while keeping TT then perfect, I don't see how we have the assets to do that though.

We all agree the defense needs some serious help and yeah, I agree it doesn't look too bad. But like others have said, the Kings are starving for goals and giving up their 30 goal scorer doesn't seem like the way to go. Although, if a lot of pieces fall right and the Kings do somehow move Brown and/or Gaborik, Kings could always sign a 20 goal scorer with the money they free up. A lot easier to sign a forward than a d-man. But like I said, a lot would have to go right.

 

[TheBannermen]

Don't think it's "selling off" if you get a 23 year old stud RHD in return.

I'm going to assume you're talking about Barrie, because Trouba is a hit or miss player right now. He has not established himself as the guy people think he is. Not yet. Toffoli has gotten better every season, Trouba has not.

As for Barrie, he's had two premier seasons now and yes, he is a top tier RHD in the league. He's an RFA and he will command $7-8 million dollars on his next deal. Also remember this, bringing a 50-60 point defenseman from Colorado to Los Angeles is like bringing an alien form Mars to Earth.

I think Barrie is a great player and would solidify our back end, but to do at the cost of a home grown cup winner who is on the trajectory to become an elite scorer is a mistake.

P.S. Our best RW prospect is Jonny Brodzinski... think about that.

 

[Seventyx7]

I'm going to assume you're talking about Barrie, because Trouba is a hit or miss player right now. He has not established himself as the guy people think he is. Not yet. Toffoli has gotten better every season, Trouba has not.

As for Barrie, he's had two premier seasons now and yes, he is a top tier RHD in the league. He's an RFA and he will command $7-8 million dollars on his next deal. Also remember this, bringing a 50-60 point defenseman from Colorado to Los Angeles is like bringing an alien form Mars to Earth.

I think Barrie is a great player and would solidify our back end, but to do at the cost of a home grown cup winner who is on the trajectory to become an elite scorer is a mistake.

P.S. Our best RW prospect is Jonny Brodzinski... think about that.

TT is also going to be an RFA, and will also command $7M on his next deal. I can't believe I'm arguing for trading TT, because the homegrown talent is obvious and he's already a great player. Hopefully DL has a miracle up his sleeve to solve it.

This is really all VV's fault. That top 4 d is a gaping hole. How else do you possibly see that being fixed? If Brown can't be moved and Lucic comes back, are you ok spending that much cap on wingers?

 

[KingsFan7824]

Toffoli for Trouba/Barrie. It's the only thing that makes sense.

-No good RHD on FA market.
-Too much $$ allocated to wingers (Brown not movable, Gaborik reasonable cap hit, Lucic resigning, TT due for big payday).
-Love TT, but it's the only way to get back to Kings identity of strong defense first.

If we are going to be thin somewhere, should be on wing and not D.

The issue there is, why would the Jets or Avs do that? Some of the reasons you list for the Kings doing it, is also why the other team wouldn't. Nobody to replace them on D easily, rather be thin on the wing than on D, etc. Plus even if the Jets and Avs were looking to do something, the Kings aren't the only team out there to trade with.

While I agree there would be too much money for Brown/Gaborik/Lucic/Toffoli to keep the team competitive, that doesn't necessarily mean you trade the youngest of the bunch with the future potential to give you the most bang for your buck.

When it gets to the point where too many things need to go right for a team to win, that might be the time to slow down. More likely than not, no matter what the Kings do for the next few years, it's not going to be as good as 2012-2014. The core guys won here, got paid for it, and now probably take up too much cap space to have the NHL ready depth from Day 1 to win again in the near future.

 

[Seventyx7]

The issue there is, why would the Jets or Avs do that? Some of the reasons you list for the Kings doing it, is also why the other team wouldn't. Nobody to replace them on D easily, rather be thin on the wing than on D, etc. Plus even if the Jets and Avs were looking to do something, the Kings aren't the only team out there to trade with.

While I agree there would be too much money for Brown/Gaborik/Lucic/Toffoli to keep the team competitive, that doesn't necessarily mean you trade the youngest of the bunch with the future potential to give you the most bang for your buck.

When it gets to the point where too many things need to go right for a team to win, that might be the time to slow down. More likely than not, no matter what the Kings do for the next few years, it's not going to be as good as 2012-2014. The core guys won here, got paid for it, and now probably take up too much cap space to have the NHL ready depth from Day 1 to win again in the near future.

No doubt, we would probably have to add a little to make it happen. We need our Seth Jones trade partner, but TT doesn't have the same value as a young #1C. If we can't get a Barrie/Larsson-level player, then I completely abandon any notion of trading TT and will retreat to shaking with cold sweats in bed thinking of Schenn/Scuderi on the ice against Thornton and Pavelski.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

No doubt, we would probably have to add a little to make it happen. We need our Seth Jones trade partner, but TT doesn't have the same value as a young #1C. If we can't get a Barrie/Larsson-level player, then I completely abandon any notion of trading TT and will retreat to shaking with cold sweats in bed thinking of Schenn/Scuderi on the ice against Thornton and Pavelski.

Doesn't Colorado need more defense and not less of it? And less offense and more defense? Not sure why they would even think of trading Barrie for Toffoli. Maybe Barrie for Trouba+ since he'll be cheaper.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Lewis is a UFA, as the White Sox announcer says "He gone". Some team will offer him more money and more ice time than the Kings can afford. The old argument "he should take less to stay here" is the argument from somebody who has never had any money in their bank account. If a job offer came along right now to 99.9% of people reading this offered more money and a better job it's being taken without thought. For some strange reason King fans think everybody should take less money to play here in an open market. Really makes no sense. This may be Lewis' last chance to sign a deal that can set him and his family up for life.

Well the majority of fans of every team in every sport think that. Fans are emotionally attached to corporate logos. Players are doing a job. It's just a different mindset. If we loved the Target logo, and kept up with the careers of people working there, we wouldn't want to watch some person doing a job there going to work at Walmart. Sports are supposed to be an escape though.

 

[Seventyx7]

The issue there is, why would the Jets or Avs do that? Some of the reasons you list for the Kings doing it, is also why the other team wouldn't. Nobody to replace them on D easily, rather be thin on the wing than on D, etc. Plus even if the Jets and Avs were looking to do something, the Kings aren't the only team out there to trade with.

While I agree there would be too much money for Brown/Gaborik/Lucic/Toffoli to keep the team competitive, that doesn't necessarily mean you trade the youngest of the bunch with the future potential to give you the most bang for your buck.

When it gets to the point where too many things need to go right for a team to win, that might be the time to slow down. More likely than not, no matter what the Kings do for the next few years, it's not going to be as good as 2012-2014. The core guys won here, got paid for it, and now probably take up too much cap space to have the NHL ready depth from Day 1 to win again in the near future.

Ok, to clear cap space allocated to top 6 wingers, in order of priority:

Option 1: Dump Brown - need a miracle.
Option 2: Let Lucic walk - would be shocked.
Option 3: Dump Gaborik - pretty good bang for his buck at this point, with ~zero trade value.
Option 4: Trade TT

 

[YP44]

Pearson-Kopi-Gaborik
Lucic-Carter-Brown


Muzzin-DD
A-Mart- Trouba (or Larsson, or some other TT RHD equivalent).

Hey, in my opinion that looks better than what we had out there v SJ (even if A-Mart was playing). If we can fill that spot while keeping TT then perfect, I don't see how we have the assets to do that though.

how do you pay both lucic and trouba? Trouba is an RFA is he not?

 

[KingsFan7824]

No doubt, we would probably have to add a little to make it happen. We need our Seth Jones trade partner, but TT doesn't have the same value as a young #1C. If we can't get a Barrie/Larsson-level player, then I completely abandon any notion of trading TT and will retreat to shaking with cold sweats in bed thinking of Schenn/Scuderi on the ice against Thornton and Pavelski.

I think it would need to be more than a little. It's not a Carter/Johnson/Voynov situation. It would probably have to be Toffoli, plus Muzzin or Martinez, and getting back one of those defenseman, and a forward of some kind, which wouldn't get the Kings out of the hole.

Plus every other GM knows the Kings situation with Brown, and other large cap hits. Every GM is going to try to squeeze Lombardi as much as they can. No easy answers.

 

[AlphaBravo]

I don't think there is anyone on this board and with a right mind that "wants" Toffoli traded. We all know what an amazing sniper he is. But the reality is that there is no other player on the Kings that other teams would want in exchange for a top 4 defender. Do you think other teams will want King, Clifford, or Shore or a combination of these scrubs for a legit top 4 defender that is coveted by nearly all teams in the NHL?

The ultimate question really is whether you are willing to keep Toffoli and have a crappy defense like last season or would you rather sacrifice some offense for a solid top 4 defenseman that can give stability to this team. Remember, a good defenseman will also contribute offensively. Yes, he wont score 30 goals, but he will provide a catalyst for other forwards to score more goals.

That said, there is a way we can keep Toffoli and get a top 4 defender. Option 1 is unloading Brown's contract, which is a big question mark. Option 2, which is more realistic, is to not sign Lucic and sign Yandle instead.

 

[TheBannermen]

TT is also going to be an RFA, and will also command $7M on his next deal. I can't believe I'm arguing for trading TT, because the homegrown talent is obvious and he's already a great player. Hopefully DL has a miracle up his sleeve to solve it.

This is really all VV's fault. That top 4 d is a gaping hole. How else do you possibly see that being fixed? If Brown can't be moved and Lucic comes back, are you ok spending that much cap on wingers?

I'm with you. The team is not in an ideal place, to say the least. But that's why we don't get paid to manage a team.

If I'm using logic, or at least trying to, the move I'm looking to make (if it's there) is Pearson or King + for a defenseman. No, it won't be Trouba or Barrie coming back, but it might be a youngish defenseman with top 4 potential. I think Michael Mersch is the real deal and ready to play in the NHL and we're much better set up on the left side than the right.

 

[Seventyx7]

The ultimate question really is whether you are willing to keep Toffoli and have a crappy defense like last season or would you rather sacrifice some offense for a solid top 4 defenseman that can give stability to this team. Remember, a good defenseman will also contribute offensively. Yes, he wont score 30 goals, but he will provide a catalyst for other forwards to score more goals.

This is a great point. The effectiveness of Kopi/Carter/TT/Gaborik/Lucic will be severely hindered without the right pieces on D to get the puck out of the zone and up to them in a place to do damage.

I'm with you. The team is not in an ideal place, to say the least. But that's why we don't get paid to manage a team.

If I'm using logic, or at least trying to, the move I'm looking to make (if it's there) is Pearson or King + for a defenseman. No, it won't be Trouba or Barrie coming back, but it might be a youngish defenseman with top 4 potential. I think Michael Mersch is the real deal and ready to play in the NHL and we're much better set up on the left side than the right.

If you think MM is the real deal (I do too), I don't really see why which side we deal from matters. They may have preferences, but Gaborik, Brown, Pearson have all shown they can play both sides. To me, Pearson is just as important as Toffoli. May not have the same goal scoring ability, but he provides offense and tenacity at (hopefully) much less of a price-tag.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Ok, to clear cap space allocated to top 6 wingers, in order of priority:

Option 1: Dump Brown - need a miracle.
Option 2: Let Lucic walk - would be shocked.
Option 3: Dump Gaborik - pretty good bang for his buck at this point, with ~zero trade value.
Option 4: Trade TT

Lucic is a UFA, and Gaborik is going to be 35 next year. I don't do option 4, unless you get that #2/3 defenseman, which would be difficult. I doubt the Kings can even break even with Brown, one way or another. He's going to cost the Kings something of value, either a top prospect, top pick, or just not being able to add anyone.

#2 or 3 would be the way I go. Trading Gaborik means dealing with other GM's, and we get back to the squeeze again. Letting Lucic go would be the toughest in terms of what you gave up for 1 playoff win, but it would also be the easiest choice in terms of not having other GM's force you into a corner.

All these scenarios probably depend on whether or not fans have mentally prepared themselves for it not being 2012-2014 anymore. This time last year, I was for an all in plan. It was only a year removed from a Cup, and the 14-15 seasons was an odd one in many ways. Now it's 2 years removed, that much more money has been invested in guys like Kopitar(not good or bad, just what is), everyone is another year older, there's going to be a significant hole up front or on defense to start the year no matter what Lombardi does, etc.

More and more, I'm thinking don't even get crazy with things. Let the free agents go. Sign a guy or two on 1 year deals. You got your 2017 pick, so if you suck, you at least get a high pick. You don't have to spend to the cap. Lay low, let some AHL guys get a chance, give Toffoli and Pearson more ice time, and see how the year goes. If things look good at the deadline, maybe do something.

 

[BigKing]

The questions are going to have to be answered by those already on the roster, which includes Ontario.

 

[tsanuri]

I don't think there is anyone on this board and with a right mind that "wants" Toffoli traded. We all know what an amazing sniper he is. But the reality is that there is no other player on the Kings that other teams would want in exchange for a top 4 defender. Do you think other teams will want King, Clifford, or Shore or a combination of these scrubs for a legit top 4 defender that is coveted by nearly all teams in the NHL?

The ultimate question really is whether you are willing to keep Toffoli and have a crappy defense like last season or would you rather sacrifice some offense for a solid top 4 defenseman that can give stability to this team. Remember, a good defenseman will also contribute offensively. Yes, he wont score 30 goals, but he will provide a catalyst for other forwards to score more goals.

That said, there is a way we can keep Toffoli and get a top 4 defender. Option 1 is unloading Brown's contract, which is a big question mark. Option 2, which is more realistic, is to not sign Lucic and sign Yandle instead.

We have some holes on D but we have far from a crappy D. That's trying to rewrite history in a big way. We had the best GA/G for much of the year. And ended the year at 3rd. We need some help on D but giving up Toffoli creates more problems than it solves.

 

[Trolfoli]

Issue is the rumor is that Barrie want over $6M/year..how does LA fit that in even with moving out A-Mart (not to mention the avalanch would be too weak on D to make that deal)? In order to fit in Barrie no chance of re-signing lucic. So you would be giving up Lucic, Toffoli, and Pearson up front and bringing in Yak. You would be giving up Martinez on the back end but bringing in Barrie. I know I am ignoring the 1st but that's because I don't see Martinez bringing in a top 10 pick.

I like Barrie, but it just is not feasible IMO

Avs probably don't want to pay Barrie's contract and Iginla may have hit the wall creating a hole in the top 6.
Barrie is doable. Move out Martinez & Toffoli for cap space. Avs can hit UFA for a replacement that's cheaper.

Initially swapping Barrie for Martinez is a slight upgrade and not adding a D. The Kings will have to wait for the cap to go up the next year or Brown getting picked up. This is about RHD being very hard to find and filling that spot going forward then letting the team grow around it.

'Nuff said. Terrible.

I would be fine with signing Yandle and leaving him unprotected. I doubt anyone would give him a NMC to avoid expansion, but you never know. I think it's going to have somewhat of an effect on FA signings over the next year.

But if it's only a one team expansion and Yandle gets taken, how the hell do we get rid of Brown on the cheap?

The high end UFA's asking for a NMC for the first year or 2 of a contract due to the expansion, would not surprise me at all. They would probably sign with the teams that commit to them.

We can officially put any Hamonic trade proposals to bed now that he's rescinded his trade request.

Great news!!!!! Hamonic wanted to only go to Western Canada. Now the Islanders have Boychuck (NMC), and Hamonic on the right side, and Pulock coming soon. They are also losing Okposo, need a sniper/finisher for the top line. Have had to come to terms with trading a D for a forward over the last. Pulock would be my new target.

Also Ryan Strome could be a reclamation project as a secondary target.

Toffoli for Trouba/Barrie. It's the only thing that makes sense.

-No good RHD on FA market.
-Too much $$ allocated to wingers (Brown not movable, Gaborik reasonable cap hit, Lucic resigning, TT due for big payday).
-Love TT, but it's the only way to get back to Kings identity of strong defense first.

If we are going to be thin somewhere, should be on wing and not D.

Exactly. Wing is a lot easier to find replacements on. Plus a second paring D is a lot more critical. Plus there are no good RHD coming. (2 next year MIGHT hit UFA. Hard to build on "might".)

So, who the replaces Toffoli's team leading goal scoring?

Some of these suggestions are giving me flashbacks of the stupid decisions the organization would make in eras past.

Brown!!!!
It hurts no doubt, but moving Martinez out could bring in a nice young RW that could be a possible replacement.

Fair enough. By no means am I bashing Toffoli. You may be right nobody can replace Toffoli, but nobody can replace Voynov either. Being short a top 4 dmen hurts more than being short a top 6 winger.

This!

 

[AlphaBravo]

We have some holes on D but we have far from a crappy D. That's trying to rewrite history in a big way. We had the best GA/G for much of the year. And ended the year at 3rd. We need some help on D but giving up Toffoli creates more problems than it solves.

I don't think our team defense is crappy. I think our bottom 3 defensemen are crappy. Two different things. During the playoffs, because our forwards had to compensate for the defense's inability to get the puck out of the zone, they had no energy left to go on a counter attack.

Defensemen are the quarterbacks of the team. You could have amazing wide receivers, but if the quarterback can't make a good play and pass, the wide receivers are ineffective. The same is true in hockey. When Scuderi, Schenn and McNabb were stuck in the defensive zone and couldn't get a pass out to the forwards, the forwards were forced to just play defense and couldn't get out of the zone to score goals.