GDT: Offseason GDT II

[Raccoon Jesus]

But now he's performing in the playoffs. It would do Brown some good to take the pressure off. The Sharks are a completely different team with Pavelski as captain, along with Deboer.

Its also embarrassing having your captain perform the way Brown has. Sends a bad message.

I don't think so. We've been loyal to a fault and Brown's performance certainly isn't for a lack of on-ice or off-ice effort.

But I agree he's got a shelf life.

 

[damacles1156]

The Sharks are not playing any different.

They simply stepped up to the challenge this time. They have always been a good team with Thornton/Pavs/Couture/Vlasic/Burns.

The only difference this time is they are stepping up to the challenge.

Has nothing to do with Letters on a jersey.

 

[damacles1156]

Also you have to think of the locker room ramifications of Stripping Brown of the C.

What if your core players don't agree, and don't like that. Also they voice that displeasure. Then your season is not about hockey anymore, it's about you stripped your Two time cup winning captain of the C.

Brown is also a rock in the community, and did everything management asked of him to get better (went beyond it actually). That's a circus I would want no part of.

 

[Peter James Bond II]

You are making way too much of a deal out of the Ehrhoff/Versteeg acquisitions.

Ehrhoff was the Kings taking a shot. They needed a Top 4D for around $1M because of the cap. Everyone knew there was a good chance he was done. See the $1M cap hit and not 4-5. Sutter said some nice things about him. What do you expect? Sutter to bash a new acquisition before he's played his first game for the Kings?

Don't understand what you're problem with Versteeg was. He was a great fill in for Gaborik when he was injured. Kings didn't want to give up a lot for a guy that was just a place holder until Gaborik got back. That's it.

Sutter's demands as far as what the team looks like are easy to figure out. Put your Sutter hat on and everything looks like Defense/Defense/Defense then Grinders...
Scuderi/Doughty
Mitchell/Voynov
Martinez/Greene

vs
Scuderi(old)/Doughty
Muzzin/Martinez
McNabb/Greene

There is a world of difference there. Sutter wants a defense he can win with. He's right too. Sutter isn't the most mobile, when it comes to making adjustments. He needs a defense that fits his game plan. Also the team has too much cap spent on forwards. Wings specifically.

You are probably right about Dowd/Gravel. If you want to see the youth play, it's best for Sutter to move on. While I'm not down on either player I think Pearson showed way more promise and got less then 25 games his first year?

Didn't have a problem with Versteeg. Just wondering if there have been possible acquisitions that could have been good fits over the last few years that DS didn't want. Ehrhoff was not a risk. Post is about he is rigid and may have too much say what players are brought in.

 

[damacles1156]

Why do people continue to think Sutter doesn't want effective/good players on his roster ? Sutter like every single NHL coach, wants good/effective players on his roster.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Why do people continue to think Sutter doesn't want effective/good players on his roster ? Sutter like every single NHL coach, wants good/effective players on his roster.

People seem to think that size/grit and skill/speed are mutually exclusive.

Sutter's problem this season was a flawed roster combined with his own inclination to play vets.

 

[damacles1156]

People seem to think that size/grit and skill/speed are mutually exclusive.

Sutter's problem this season was a flawed roster combined with his own inclination to play vets.

I just don't understand the anger.

Every single NHL coach would prefer a Veteran player, over a rookie that's learning the game. The only time that a coach would deviate from that process is; rebuilding team, or the rookie is Kopitar/Doughty type player.

The Kings are trying to win Cups, not field an AHL team, and see what they got in the minors. That's what a rebuilding team does.

 

[Peter James Bond II]

You don't give up a player a Like Muzzin.

You simply buy Brown out, and deal with the dead cap space 3-4 years from now, when the window is closed anyway.

Brown's buyout Cap hits don't start hurting till about 3 years from now.

Agreed. I love Muzzin. Just would consider moving Brown with him, for 2 very good players - like getting Sandstrom and Granato for Nicholls....but as Damacles stated - Brown would not approve gping to Toronto, or mostces, due to his 7 kids.

Somone (anyone here?) posted this on Lakingsinsider the other day, regarding Brown's play and how they SHOULD make him play. Brilliant assessment. I agree.. Makes me think of his draft year, a scout said "I just don't see it with Brown....he plays the game more like football and I question his hockey sense" To be fair, Dustin was awesome playing his style for years. It's just not happening anymore.

spot on assessment here:

>>>I've said this before and I'll say it again, Brown's biggest problem is being asked to be the Kings' leader by example of possessing the puck. He is a terrible choice for this. He makes terrible decisions with the puck. He is not a facilitator. He holds onto the puck for way too long in fear of losing possession, only to wind up with poor passing or shooting options. I can't believe that management/coaching has such a hard time seeing this.
His skills aren't diminishing, he's just used completely improperly for his skill set. He should be playing without the puck, crashing into bodies, stripping pucks, getting it immediately to a team mate, then go crashing to the net. There's no reason why he can't still earn some of his pay. He's in great shape and hasn't lost a step. He's just doing the things that are asked of him and it's just wrong for him<<<

 

[KingsFan7824]

How to move Brown? About the only way would be to package him with a highly sought after player. Of course, Muzzin is a sought after
player, being a top pairing defenseman with only a 4 mil cap hit.
Would I want to deal Muzzin? H. E. double hockey sticks, NO!
I hated seeing Nicholls dealt for Sandstrom and Granato, but worked
out ok. Sometimes you can help your team. Trading Muzzing and trading that horrible Brown contract that foes to 2030 or whatever,
could end up helping, especially if you got 2 good players back.

Toronto has tons of young forwards and NO true1-2 defenseman.
I'm sure they would pay a premium for Muzz - one of those costs would be to take Brown.

Could get Kadri and possibly Gardiner. (or is that unreasonable?)
Or, Kadri, Carrick (decent young defenseman - has 10 points in 5 AHL playoff games with Marlies and played some on the Caps and 16 with Leafs last season. Right shot) and the Leafs #27 overall. Or Kadri, Bozak and another prospect. (or maybe the 27th overall)

Instead of Kadri? there's VanRiemsdyk, Nylander, Bozak, and Marner.

So, how to replace Muzzin? Moving the 5.8 mil Brown contract will give room to get a top 4 defenseman.

Lucic Kopitar Gaborik
Pearson Carter Toffoli
King Kadri Mersch
Clifford Dowd Andreoff
Nolan

D? Well, there would be cap space moving Brown, to sign Yandle if DL wanted to. May have enough $ to sign Lewis, if reasonable.
Could deal King / Nolan / Clifford for a defenseman or a deal in which DL fills 'one of his slots'.

McNabb Doughty
Yandle Martinez
Gravel Greene
Forbort (Carrick?)

Bury Scuderi in AHL, not sign Schenn or McBain.

Just thinking how to REALISTICALLY move Brown and come out
of it ok. May be time for a new captain anyway. Kopi?

Any team would want Muzzin (some even with Brown) and that makes for lots of trading partners in the East.

I have a tough time believing the Kings are going to break even, let alone come out ahead, with Brown. You think the Leafs would take Brown's entire contract for the next 6 years, making him their highest paid player, just to get Muzzin, and give the Kings a couple good, younger players, and maybe a 1st round pick?

That just seems like too good of an outcome, considering how much we fans can't wait to get rid of Brown's contract. If Toronto wanted to trade Kadri for a defenseman, they can probably do it without having to take Brown.

King, Nolan, or Clifford for a defenseman? 3rd and 4th line guys that are done developing? Who is that going to get you? Not a top 4 guy. Which they still need if they trade Muzzin. If they have Yandle instead of Muzzin, they're getting older and probably more expensive on defense.

 

[Omni Owl]

The Sharks are not playing any different.

They simply stepped up to the challenge this time. They have always been a good team with Thornton/Pavs/Couture/Vlasic/Burns.

The only difference this time is they are stepping up to the challenge.

Has nothing to do with Letters on a jersey.

You're kidding yourself if you think that had nothing to do with it. Wilson recognized how lackluster they've been in the playoffs and made the necessary moves to change the culture in the room by changing captains and bringing in Deboer. He also solidified their depth on the back end with Paul Martin. Look how well its been working for them, they don't get this far without those changes. Obviously our top guys need to perform better, that's a given.

We're already a circus anyways, and since you say letters don't matter, then it wouldn't make a difference (with your logic) to strip Brown of his C. He needs the pressure taken off of him to perform, something we drastically need from a guy making that much.

 

[CowMix]

Sharks changed captains because they had countless playoff collapses with Thornton. Kings may have had a rough w seasons but they won 2 cups with Brown as a captain not sure not sure how you can rrally compare the situations.

 

[Thrice]

The Sharks are not playing any different.

They simply stepped up to the challenge this time. They have always been a good team with Thornton/Pavs/Couture/Vlasic/Burns.

The only difference this time is they are stepping up to the challenge.

Has nothing to do with Letters on a jersey.

Under a different set of coaches and a near full overhaul of their blueline, goaltender and bottom six since they last faced the Kings in the Playoffs? Interesting theory.

 

[Trolfoli]

Under a different set of coaches and a near full overhaul of their blueline, goaltender and bottom six since they last faced the Kings in the Playoffs? Interesting theory.

And the Kings added Scuderi/Schenn in the top 4, with Martinez out, and a 3rd pair that only got a handful of minutes a game. Maybe the Sharks best players "outplayed" the Kings because the Kings best players were trying to cover for deficiencies in other areas, instead of playing their game.

Edit: Kopitar is going to get burned behind his net when he's spending half the game below his own goal line.

We're already a circus anyways, and since you say letters don't matter, then it wouldn't make a difference (with your logic) to strip Brown of his C. He needs the pressure taken off of him to perform, something we drastically need from a guy making that much.

I think Brown would be better off not being a Captain as well. It would allow him to focus more on himself, his game. Not worry about as much team stuff, and think less. It would be better for Brown just to play instead of trying to lead by example. Now that might require being traded.

Oh yeah, to further complicate the possible trading of Brown. It doesn't make a lot of sense to give up assets/retain on Brown until you see if you can lose him in the expansion next year. It may not happen, Brown getting picked up or the expansion, but it would be beyond stupid to pay 1-2M per year without verifying first that an expansion team wouldn't take him.

 

[kingsfan28]

People seem to think that size/grit and skill/speed are mutually exclusive.

Sutter's problem this season was a flawed roster combined with his own inclination to play vets.

And here lies the problem. His leash with the young guys is so short and any mistakes gets you benched. Yet, the same mistakes can be made by the likes of Schenn,Nolan or King and it's ok .

 

[kingsfan28]

Continue.



It's not like he's doing poorly and DL had said money isn't an issue, which I would tend to believe. Sounds like Sutter is holding out to see what kind of Cup chances exist.

https://hockey-graphs.com/2015/11/18/what-determines-coach-salaries-a-look-at-nhl-bench-bosses/

As it's stands:
Babcock : 6.25
Quenneville : 6.00
Bylsma : 3.0
McLellan : 3.0
Roy : 3.0

You'd have to think Sutters contract offer is around the 4-5 range considering his resume.

 

[KingPuckChoo]

And here lies the problem. His leash with the young guys is so short and any mistakes gets you benched. Yet, the same mistakes can be made by the likes of Schenn,Nolan or King and it's ok .

how would you explain the additions of Shore, Andreoff, and McNabb as regulars?

they had 0 NHL experience at one point (ok McNabb had a few but still inexperienced) yet Sutter made them regulars

i think Sutter has the knowledge that guys like Weal, Dowd, Gravel, Forbort, were garbage prospects

stick with the garbage that you know over the garbage that you don't know i guess

 

[PJ Kings Hockey]

how would you explain the additions of Shore, Andreoff, and McNabb as regulars?

they had 0 NHL experience at one point (ok McNabb had a few but still inexperienced) yet Sutter made them regulars

i think Sutter has the knowledge that guys like Weal, Dowd, Gravel, Forbort, were garbage prospects

stick with the garbage that you know over the garbage that you don't know i guess

Shore was reliable defensively for a rookie, but he wouldn't have stuck with the team in January 2015 if Mike Richards' game hadn't taken a nosedive. Andreoff was on the team because they weren't about to lose him to waivers, but Sutter played him only, what, 18 games? McNabb was targeted and traded for because he was identified as a defenseman for the Kings for at least the next few years. McNabb was going to play.

Weal wasn't a good fit, Dowd and Gravel were benched after Dowd's rough game and Gravel's (group) contribution to that one goal. Short leash. Forbort had 14 games? Longer leash than most prospects.

 

[Trolfoli]

Chicago: Ride 3D, problem here, as we found out this year, is if one of those D go down, you're screwed. This leaves no room for injuries.

Kings currently spend 21M on D
Doughty 7
Muzzin 4
Martinez 4
Schenn 1.8
Scuderi/Mcnabb/McBain are around the 1 mark

Sharks are spending 27M on D
Burns 5.76
Martin 4.58
Vlasic 4.25
Braun 3.8
Dillon 3.27
Polak 2.75
Mueller/Demelo/Tennyson are making around 1M

Blues are spending 22M on D
Pietrangelo 6.5
Bouwmeester 5.4
Shattenkirk 4.25
Gunnarsson 2.95
Bortuzzo/Parayko/Edmundson/Lindohm make around 1M

The Sharks have more money allocated to their D. They have 6 guys making over 2.75. That's a lot more depth then the Kings have with Schenn at 4th highest paid at 1.8. They make up for this by having Hertl/Donskoi/Nieto under 1M.

Blues have about the same money spent on D as the Kings. The difference here is that they have Parayko and I believe Edmundson playing very well for under 1M.

The solution is easy. Money needs to be moved from the forward group to defense or some young/cheap 1M impact players need to show up. You could let Lucic walk and bring in a D, but then Lucic is a productive forward. This opens a hole in the top 6. No! Brown/King in the top 6 isn't winning you a cup.

Moving cap out of the top 6, while leaving the offense in tact requires moving Brown.

Getting young impact players would require selling some assets off for guys that are a couple of years out, and hopefully finding a way to tank next year, then get back in the game in 2-3 years with Vets supporting those new assets ready to put the Kings over the top.

The problems here are moving Brown and bringing in a UFA D doesn't mean that
Muzzin/Doughty
Martinez/UFA
McNabb/Gravel/Greene/Scuderi
is good enough to win a cup.

or that the draft picks won't bust like Forbort.

Personally I'd rather dive for the bottom next year/2 in hopes of turning it around and getting back over the top, then remain mediocre. (I don't really have faith slapping a UFA in with Muzzin/Doughty Martinez/UFA gets this ship righted. Think the D needs to be overhauled.)

 

[Tatsdzyuk]

What about Hamonic? He has asked for a trade iirc, he is right handed, also has a friendly cap hit.

Muzzin - Doughty
Martinez - Hamonic

Not bad imo. Something around Pearson?

 

[Nizar]

What about Hamonic? He has asked for a trade iirc, he is right handed, also has a friendly cap hit.

Muzzin - Doughty
Martinez - Hamonic

Not bad imo. Something around Pearson?

Hamonic wants to be closer to his family. That takes LA out of question.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Kings currently spend 21M on D
Doughty 7
Muzzin 4
Martinez 4
Schenn 1.8
Scuderi/Mcnabb/McBain are around the 1 mark

Sharks are spending 27M on D
Burns 5.76
Martin 4.58
Vlasic 4.25
Braun 3.8
Dillon 3.27
Polak 2.75
Mueller/Demelo/Tennyson are making around 1M

Blues are spending 22M on D
Pietrangelo 6.5
Bouwmeester 5.4
Shattenkirk 4.25
Gunnarsson 2.95
Bortuzzo/Parayko/Edmundson/Lindohm make around 1M

Not just defensively, but an issue for the Kings is they've ended up spending money inefficiently. Brown as the obvious and prime example. Quick, that's a of of money. Kopitar, it's a lot of money. Martinez is making close to what Vlasic and Shattenkirk make, but he's not on Team Canada, or putting up 40+ points. Some of that comes from winning, and having to pay guys. Chicago has the same problem. St.Louis and SJ, they haven't had quite the same issue.

Like you said, the Kings need some -$1m players being productive members of the team.

 

[eleventy]

Not just defensively, but an issue for the Kings is they've ended up spending money inefficiently. Brown as the obvious and prime example. Quick, that's a of of money. Kopitar, it's a lot of money. Martinez is making close to what Vlasic and Shattenkirk make, but he's not on Team Canada, or putting up 40+ points. Some of that comes from winning, and having to pay guys. Chicago has the same problem. St.Louis and SJ, they haven't had quite the same issue.

Like you said, the Kings need some -$1m players being productive members of the team.

They'll likely need one of the $1M'ers to step up next year. But just to put this in to perspective, if Voynov was still on the roster, we'd be sitting at a $-amount-committed-to-D just under what SJ is paying their defense. Seriously, **** you Voynov.

 

[YP44]

What about Hamonic? He has asked for a trade iirc, he is right handed, also has a friendly cap hit.

Muzzin - Doughty
Martinez - Hamonic

Not bad imo. Something around Pearson?

as has been said LA would be farther from home than Brooklyn. So no way LA get him, but even if they were the cose would be a lot more than pearson and it was rumored they wanted an NHL D back. Would have to be Martinez +

 

[AlphaBravo]

I am a big advocate for using more of the team's cap space on acquiring better defensemen instead of forwards. This is particularly true on the Kings system which relies on using players that can effectively execute the cycle and get a barrage of low quality shots on goal.

For example, ask yourself if the Kings would be better if they signed Lucic at $6 million or Yandle at the same price. I personally think Yandle because he is a good puck mover, will help fuel offense from the backend (instead of Kings players being pinned in the defensive zone), and a combination of other players can contribute goals by committee. Moreover, wingers are easier to acquire at the trade deadline, and Dean can always get a player like Versteeg or McGinn if more help is needed for secondary scoring.

Also, if some miracle happens and we are able to unload Brown's cap hit, we can use that cap space to acquire a legitimate third line center, as Shore has shown he cannot fill that spot, and Dowd is a question mark.

 

[Johnny Utah]

It's sad to say after only two years removed from the last cup, but it might be time to change the coach and captain.

Sutter is sterile in my opinion, and it's been tough for any young player to catch a break under him especially in the past two seasons.

I predict either Stevens or Payne takes over the Kings get rid of Brown somehow and Kopitar ends up the Captain.

This is an extreme, but probably what this team needs.