Official Tank Thread of the Toronto Maple Leafs

[Kurisu]

I very much doubt the Leafs were "meh" about the pick being protected. Let's not forget that Pittsburgh has a say in the matter too. They aren't going to just say "meh, what are the odds" and hand over a pick that could be Matthews just because Shanahan wants it.

I don't really understand the idea that we got fleeced in the Kessel deal and he was really worth more than we got. If he was, another team would have stepped up, and not let him go to one of their competitors for a bargain.

Yeah people like to think every team and fans outside the Leafs are a bunch of Pejorative Slurs.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

Can we get a round of applause for Arizona please?

Marner's old buddy Domi happens to be helping the Leafs out

Just need the rest of the teams below Toronto to start winning games. Still early in the season, but Arizona looks rejuvenated with the injection of young skilled forwards

 

[Bullseye]

Depth at defense is the hallmark of healthy teams. We just shed Nilsson and Finn but picked up Marincin and Corrado. Hoped we gained in that maneuver. Are Percy and Loov ready to step into the Leafs 6th and 7th positions later this season or next?

 

[Ovate]

Yeah people like to think every team and fans outside the Leafs are a bunch of Pejorative Slurs.

That's honestly the #1 hallmark of an uninformed fan.

"Trade [player I don't like]!"

If that player is bad, every other team realizes it too and the return won't be better.

 

[Ovate]

I very much doubt the Leafs were "meh" about the pick being protected. Let's not forget that Pittsburgh has a say in the matter too. They aren't going to just say "meh, what are the odds" and hand over a pick that could be Matthews just because Shanahan wants it.

I don't really understand the idea that we got fleeced in the Kessel deal and he was really worth more than we got. If he was, another team would have stepped up, and not let him go to one of their competitors for a bargain.

What I really don't like about it is all the protections. If they miss the playoffs this year, the return gets worse. Not only are the picks a year later, but we give up our own 2nd instead of theirs. And if they miss the playoffs again, the return becomes just their 2nd.

To me, if a team wants protection, it should be given on the condition that if it's used they need to make up for it. Like if the pick gets pushed back a year, we don't have to pay a 2nd. It's better for the Penguins, as they don't have to give up a top 14 1st, but it's also better for the Leafs, as we don't have to give back a 2nd the next year. Win-win.

 

[Daisy Jane]

The only other thing I think you could have realistically done is make it top 5-10 protected.

that's what i would have done.
if it is top 5-10 protected, Pittsbrugh keeps it, if not we do.

but again - just even looking what Rutherford did to that team which was bad (helloo. Dupres and Lovejoy?!). they have NOTHING. so I would think the fear is - if we suck, we need a pick wherever it is. vs. if we made the playoffs we're "supposed" to go for a run.

I honestly think a lot of people got wrapped up in the whole we can get amazing stuff for kessel, where I can never think of a deal where that actually happens.

Here were the teams on Kessel's NTC list: Boston, Chicago, LA, Minnesota, Montreal, NYR, Philly, and Pittsburgh (per Bobby Mac)

For those complaining about not letting a market form, you can't form a market when there is no market to form.

To make matters worse, Pittsburgh's two cap dumps, Scuderi AND Kunitz, both had NTC's of their own and did not have Toronto on their lists.

Basically, we had 2 options:

1. Trade Kessel to Pittsburgh and get ripped due to the perfect ****storm of circumstances
2. Keep Kessel

And keeping Kessel isn't making some small gamble like people think. Given his contract, keeping Kessel would've been more like playing Russian Roulette with an RPG. He's a great player, no doubt, but given Babcock's secure position... I can't think of a player he'd mesh with less than Kessel. We're talking getting benched regularly. The risk of his value plummeting was far greater than it increasing that much. And even then... yup, same NTC, same ****** circumstances. Sometimes it's better to cut your losses, bail out and fold than to risk a ****show and making a bad situation cataclysmically worse.

Babcock v. Kessel would have ended up ugly. and i think no matter what would have been said, that would have just been a powderkeg willing to explode.

and actually. things i wonder:

1: had we taken the Detroit deal at the deadline and shipped off Dion - does Kessel still get traded? (my feeling. yes. but that's me).

2: if the head coach is Guy Boucher, and not Mike Babcock, does Kessel get a reprieve (remember. we went back to do Detroit deal loosely in July).

I am not saying Babcock was the instigator for the deal, but at the same time, you couldn't risk diminishing Phil's value any more than it was including the whole He can't play for babs. (so then... unspoken thoughts....)

 

[Menzinger]

We're three games into the season. Malkin's scoring slump will end, and their coach will likely get is stuff together (or he'll be fired).

Not to mention the east is filled with generally lousy teams.

Either way they're going to make the playoffs - the lottery protection issue is really irrelevant.

 

[Daisy Jane]

We're three games into the season. Malkin's scoring slump will end, and their coach will likely get is stuff together (or he'll be fired).

Not to mention the east is filled with generally lousy teams.

Either way they're going to make the playoffs - the lottery protection issue is really irrelevant.

Gary Bettman needs to be calling Sidney Crosby's name to accept the cup in order for that coach not to get fired - and even then they might cut him.

 

[Ovate]

that's what i would have done.
if it is top 5-10 protected, Pittsbrugh keeps it, if not we do.

but again - just even looking what Rutherford did to that team which was bad (helloo. Dupres and Lovejoy?!). they have NOTHING. so I would think the fear is - if we suck, we need a pick wherever it is. vs. if we made the playoffs we're "supposed" to go for a run.

I honestly think a lot of people got wrapped up in the whole we can get amazing stuff for kessel, where I can never think of a deal where that actually happens.



Babcock v. Kessel would have ended up ugly. and i think no matter what would have been said, that would have just been a powderkeg willing to explode.

and actually. things i wonder:

1: had we taken the Detroit deal at the deadline and shipped off Dion - does Kessel still get traded? (my feeling. yes. but that's me).

2: if the head coach is Guy Boucher, and not Mike Babcock, does Kessel get a reprieve (remember. we went back to do Detroit deal loosely in July).

I am not saying Babcock was the instigator for the deal, but at the same time, you couldn't risk diminishing Phil's value any more than it was including the whole He can't play for babs. (so then... unspoken thoughts....)

Before the Kessel trade, it seemed like it should be comparable to the Rick Nash traded. Similar salaries as a % of cap, similar struggles in the season leading up to the trade, similar non-contention of the team. Rick Nash demanded a trade, so he was more of a "must go" than Kessel. A lot of people assumed Kessel would be fine with waiving his NTC to go to a strong team not on it, like Nashville or Florida. The value the Leafs got for Kessel was considerably less than Nash.

Agreed that Babcock vs. Kessel would have been ugly. But like Babcock said, "there will be pain". Maybe there's conflict, but if Kessel has a bounceback season then his value goes up. If management says "we're keeping Kessel for a year, make him look good so we can trade him" then Babcock might not like it but he doesn't have many options.

1. If we had taken the Detroit deal at the deadline, I don't think we get Babcock. Babcock likes Phaneuf and hated Weiss.

2. If Boucher is head coach, then I think we keep Kessel for another year to boost his value. Someone else has to get traded to give the appearance that we're doing something. I don't recall any serious rumours of Detroit deals in July.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Before the Kessel trade, it seemed like it should be comparable to the Rick Nash traded. Similar salaries as a % of cap, similar struggles in the season leading up to the trade, similar non-contention of the team. Rick Nash demanded a trade, so he was more of a "must go" than Kessel. A lot of people assumed Kessel would be fine with waiving his NTC to go to a strong team not on it, like Nashville or Florida. The value the Leafs got for Kessel was considerably less than Nash.

Agreed that Babcock vs. Kessel would have been ugly. But like Babcock said, "there will be pain". Maybe there's conflict, but if Kessel has a bounceback season then his value goes up. If management says "we're keeping Kessel for a year, make him look good so we can trade him" then Babcock might not like it but he doesn't have many options.

1. If we had taken the Detroit deal at the deadline, I don't think we get Babcock. Babcock likes Phaneuf and hated Weiss.

2. If Boucher is head coach, then I think we keep Kessel for another year to boost his value. Someone else has to get traded to give the appearance that we're doing something. I don't recall any serious rumours of Detroit deals in July.

wasn't serious it was more of. "heyyyy. do you still... nahh....." in that regard. like. Dreger mentioned it, it slightly surfaced, then poofed away.

and I'd ask how on earth you get to that conclusion but
A: i am tired of discussing Kessel and
B: tired of talking about the trade (on both sides of the spetrum)

so imma gonna let that go.


anyway. it will be interesting where we end up. this is going to be a v. weird year.

 

[burpsalot]

What I really don't like about it is all the protections. If they miss the playoffs this year, the return gets worse. Not only are the picks a year later, but we give up our own 2nd instead of theirs. And if they miss the playoffs again, the return becomes just their 2nd.

To me, if a team wants protection, it should be given on the condition that if it's used they need to make up for it. Like if the pick gets pushed back a year, we don't have to pay a 2nd. It's better for the Penguins, as they don't have to give up a top 14 1st, but it's also better for the Leafs, as we don't have to give back a 2nd the next year. Win-win.

If they miss the playoffs in each of those years then Kessel was no help to them.

I'll repeat an old post of mine from 3 months ago.

The reasoning for the condition is actually quite understandable.

Leafs while shopping Kessel around were promoting him as a top goalscorer that will bring your team to the promised land. But other GM's point to his putrid last 4 months & his quitting mentality. They say he is done, Shanahan says he's not. If Kessel plays next year like he did for the second half of last season, he has no value & is a huge contract that can't be moved.

So, they created a kind of performance condition to the 1st & 2nd draft pick exchange. If things go as expected & they make the playoffs their 1st to us, their 2nd back to them. If Kessel doesn't bring them to the promised land next year, as has been sold, but they make it in 2017 1st to us our 2nd to them. If Kessel is as useless as **** on a bull, we sold Pitts damaged goods & they don't make the playoffs in 2016 or 2017, then we get their 2nd in 2017 & we don't give them anything.

It, of course, would have been better to have the exchange of 1st & (their returning) 2nd with no conditions but teams aren't 100% confident that Kessel isn't broken. So we get this "team performance" condition.

It's not really new, for years players have had performance bonus' put in their contracts based on the teams success. Team makes playoffs, player gets $100,000 bonus added onto contract plus each subsequent year. Win Stanley Cup, $500,000 bonus added & in each subsequent year.

 

[mallory67]

I think we are overlooking the Leaf curse. My guess would be Pittsburgh starts to go down hill and Kessel will have pretty good offensive numbers. And we end up with just a second round pick.

I know they have Crosby, Malkin, Fleury and Letang .... but these guys barely scrapped into the playoffs last year. Kessel will put up points but will cost them defensively.

I am afraid.

 

[burpsalot]

I think we are overlooking the Leaf curse. My guess would be Pittsburgh starts to go down hill and Kessel will have pretty good offensive numbers. And we end up with just a second round pick.

I know they have Crosby, Malkin, Fleury and Letang .... but these guys barely scrapped into the playoffs last year. Kessel will put up points but will cost them defensively.

I am afraid.

I'd rather call it the Kessel curse. Kind of funny reading some of the Pitts threads. Some of them want to get rid of Crosby, but see Kessel as some kind of greatness.

Crosby feeling the Kessel curse like Bozak has & then last game Bozak looked like pre-Kessel Crosby.

 

[mallory67]

I'd rather call it the Kessel curse. Kind of funny reading some of the Pitts threads. Some of them want to get rid of Crosby, but see Kessel as some kind of greatness.

Crosby feeling the Kessel curse like Bozak has & then last game Bozak looked like pre-Kessel Crosby.

Um, yeah ... I would hang on to Crosby. Not sure what is wrong over there ... I know its early but man these guys really crapped out at the end of last year. Something is wrong in Pittsburgh and I am pretty sure:

Any Problem + Kessel = Worse Problem

 

[The Thin White Duke]

Um, yeah ... I would hang on to Crosby. Not sure what is wrong over there ... I know its early but man these guys really crapped out at the end of last year. Something is wrong in Pittsburgh and I am pretty sure:

Any Problem + Kessel = Worse Problem

That's wrong and you know it. What if your problem is that you made too many cheeseburgers?

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

I'd rather call it the Kessel curse. Kind of funny reading some of the Pitts threads. Some of them want to get rid of Crosby, but see Kessel as some kind of greatness.

Crosby feeling the Kessel curse like Bozak has & then last game Bozak looked like pre-Kessel Crosby.

What in the hell did I just read

 

[Daisy Jane]

something I noticed: most of the media scrums that Babcock does is in the dressing room. this is v. new. kinda like it

 

[Ovate]

What in the hell did I just read

Bozak=Crosby

Kessel=Literally the worst player in the league.

 

[mallory67]

That's wrong and you know it. What if your problem is that you made too many cheeseburgers?

Any Hockey Team Problem + Kessel = Worse Hockey Team Problem

 

[BertCorbeau]

Guys and gals remember the Pens face the Leafs on Saturday .. #slumpbusters. The Pens will get back on track and it will be all good from there

 

[Daisy Jane]

Guys and gals remember the Pens face the Leafs on Saturday .. #slumpbusters. The Pens will get back on track and it will be all good from there

and Columbus

that's back to back slumps

 

[Confucius]

What in the hell did I just read

Apparently Kessel turned Crosby into Bozak, and Bozak is now equal to the Crosby of years gone by.

 

[burpsalot]

Um, yeah ... I would hang on to Crosby. Not sure what is wrong over there ... I know its early but man these guys really crapped out at the end of last year. Something is wrong in Pittsburgh and I am pretty sure:

Any Problem + Kessel = Worse Problem

I think Pittsburgh fan's would like a new coach.

Horachek & Carlyle are available.

 

[burpsalot]

Apparently Kessel turned Crosby into Bozak, and Bozak is now equal to the Crosby of years gone by.

Who knew what we had in Bozak? With the Kessel curse fading from Bozak we might get 3 firsts.

 

[CBinTokyo]

Here were the teams on Kessel's NTC list: Boston, Chicago, LA, Minnesota, Montreal, NYR, Philly, and Pittsburgh (per Bobby Mac)

Basically, the reason for the lack or market was because there was no chance for a market in the first place. 6 of them are cap strapped playoff locks, Minnesota (pretty much as close to home as possible), and Boston (who he knows would never ever want him back, even with the Sweeney factor). Of all those teams, literally ONE had any interest. For those complaining about not letting a market form, you can't form a market when there is no market to form.

To make matters worse, Pittsburgh's two cap dumps, Scuderi AND Kunitz, both had NTC's of their own and did not have Toronto on their lists. So not only was there literally one trade partner, but they had no cap dumps we could take on because they refused to come here. So basically, the only option was to retain. In the end, Pittsburgh was holding a straight flush and we were holding a nine-high.

Basically, we had 2 options:

1. Trade Kessel to Pittsburgh and get ripped due to the perfect ****storm of circumstances
2. Keep Kessel

And keeping Kessel isn't making some small gamble like people think. Given his contract, keeping Kessel would've been more like playing Russian Roulette with an RPG. He's a great player, no doubt, but given Babcock's secure position... I can't think of a player he'd mesh with less than Kessel. We're talking getting benched regularly. The risk of his value plummeting was far greater than it increasing that much. And even then... yup, same NTC, same ****** circumstances. Sometimes it's better to cut your losses, bail out and fold than to risk a ****show and making a bad situation cataclysmically worse.

THAT BEING SAID... the fact that the lottery pick was protected... yeah, that's just unacceptable. You never know if injuries or underachieving strikes. Can't risk it going "meh, what are the odds".

Well said!