Official Tank Thread of the Toronto Maple Leafs

[pcruz]

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And keeping Kessel isn't making some small gamble like people think. Given his contract, keeping Kessel would've been more like playing Russian Roulette with an RPG. He's a great player, no doubt, but given Babcock's secure position... I can't think of a player he'd mesh with less than Kessel. We're talking getting benched regularly. The risk of his value plummeting was far greater than it increasing that much. And even then... yup, same NTC, same ****** circumstances. Sometimes it's better to cut your losses, bail out and fold than to risk a ****show and making a bad situation cataclysmically worse.

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This is one of the dumbest things people spout off all the time without a shred of evidence or fact base. It's pure speculation based on rumours (started by a highly questionable source named Wilson, who previously had been hated in the city for his abysmal coaching) that have never been confirmed and repeatedly denied by team mates and staff that have played with or coached Kessel.

Not only that, but there is a very similar situation going on right now as we speak with very similar circumstances in Washington.

Hell, Ovechkin was just benched for a game for being late.

That mix has certainly worked much better than anyone gave either Barry Trots or Alex Ovechkin credit for beforehand!

It's absolutely pathetic what people in this fanbase will resort to when they are force-fed rumours and hearsay from such reliable sources as Damien Cox, Steve Simmons, etc....Hell, even Arash Madani and some of the comments he's made about Blue Jays players.

 

[CBinTokyo]

This is one of the dumbest things people spout off all the time without a shred of evidence or fact base. It's pure speculation based on rumours (started by a highly questionable source named Wilson, who previously had been hated in the city for his abysmal coaching) that have never been confirmed and repeatedly denied by team mates and staff that have played with or coached Kessel.

Not only that, but there is a very similar situation going on right now as we speak with very similar circumstances in Washington.

Hell, Ovechkin was just benched for a game for being late.

That mix has certainly worked much better than anyone gave either Barry Trots or Alex Ovechkin credit for beforehand!

It's absolutely pathetic what people in this fanbase will resort to when they are force-fed rumours and hearsay from such reliable sources as Damien Cox, Steve Simmons, etc....Hell, even Arash Madani and some of the comments he's made about Blue Jays players.

So do you think we should have kept Kessel or traded him for a better return?

If the former why? Do you think he would have been a good part of our rebuild?

If the latter, to whom and for what return?

Personally I think he had to go and that he wasn't a good fit for our rebuilding team. Regarding the trade itself, we lost the battle, but only time will tell if we win the war.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

This is one of the dumbest things people spout off all the time without a shred of evidence or fact base. It's pure speculation based on rumours (started by a highly questionable source named Wilson, who previously had been hated in the city for his abysmal coaching) that have never been confirmed and repeatedly denied by team mates and staff that have played with or coached Kessel.

Not only that, but there is a very similar situation going on right now as we speak with very similar circumstances in Washington.

Hell, Ovechkin was just benched for a game for being late.

That mix has certainly worked much better than anyone gave either Barry Trots or Alex Ovechkin credit for beforehand!

It's absolutely pathetic what people in this fanbase will resort to when they are force-fed rumours and hearsay from such reliable sources as Damien Cox, Steve Simmons, etc....Hell, even Arash Madani and some of the comments he's made about Blue Jays players.

I think its fair to say kessel is one of the laziest defensive s.o.b to ever play in the nhl. He would definitely clash with Babcock behind closed doors. Then it would get to a boil over point after Kessels indifference continued and babs would bench him. Thats asset devaluation if it happened. The even worse scenario is it festers behind closed doors of the dressing room and rubs off on the rookies and newcomers in a negative way.

I'm thrilled that players like kessel aren't welcome to wear the leaf.

 

[Ovate]

So do you think we should have kept Kessel or traded him for a better return?

If the former why? Do you think he would have been a good part of our rebuild?

If the latter, to whom and for what return?

Personally I think he had to go and that he wasn't a good fit for our rebuilding team. Regarding the trade itself, we lost the battle, but only time will tell if we win the war.

Those aren't the only two options. I would have preferred to keep him for one or two more years, watch as the market for forwards changed (and the teams on his NTC changed), and then sold.

 

[mallory67]

Those aren't the only two options. I would have preferred to keep him for one or two more years, watch as the market for forwards changed (and the teams on his NTC changed), and then sold.

And how long a rebuild were you expecting? Hold Kessel for 2 more years?
That means draft picks pushed out 3-4 years.
That means impact players would be out 5-6 years ... at best.

That is why Kessel had to go ... we need the picks in 2016 and 2017 ... when we are in full tank mode.
By 2018 Marner and Nylander might just win us a few games.

 

[pcruz]

So do you think we should have kept Kessel or traded him for a better return?

If the former why? Do you think he would have been a good part of our rebuild?

If the latter, to whom and for what return?

Personally I think he had to go and that he wasn't a good fit for our rebuilding team. Regarding the trade itself, we lost the battle, but only time will tell if we win the war.

The minute that the organization decided they would not or could not build an actual team around the players they had in place - Kessel, Phaneuf, Rielly and Bernier - the bigger name players had to be moved strictly because the team needed to accumulate as many assets as possible, and by assets I mean draft picks and recently drafted players with potential, but unproven.

Sadly, there was only 1 player on this team that even had enough value for that, and it was Kessel.

The thing is, one can accept the move, agree that it had to be made, accept the consequences of making such a move and still not resort to childish name-calling, rumour mongering and asinine accusations.

I've been saying the same things since Sundin and Kaberle was so unceremoniously dealt with by this fanbase. Wait until that player moves on and then come complaining that we need a player just like that!

How long have we been pining for a legitimate #1 centre?
When was the last time we had a defenseman who could take charge of the rush, create open space for the forwards, gain the offensive zone, shake off pressure behind the net and break out of the defensive zone?
Now, the new question will be, how long will it take to get a player in this organization who can score 30+ goals a year with or without a proper supporting cast, generate offense, put defenders on the back-heel and improve the offensive statistics of not only line-mates, but the rest of the team indirectly?

It's possible that Nylander and/or Marner can be one of those 3 items I listed above, but it's also just as possible that they both turn out like Kadri - a solid #2 guy!

All I have ever said is that there are so many faults to Kessel's game on the ice, that there is absolutely no need to make things up about possible issues with work ethic, likability, and his relationship with the rest of the team.

 

[CBinTokyo]

Those aren't the only two options. I would have preferred to keep him for one or two more years, watch as the market for forwards changed (and the teams on his NTC changed), and then sold.

Fair enough, that was also definitely a possibility but not without its own set of risks.

Having said that, when you want to change the culture of a group, you need to make changes (even symbolic ones). Trading Kessel was a strong message to everyone that no one is untouchable. We got some value for him and now the team can move forward.

We on the Leafs Board, however, may never move forward from the Kessel trades.

 

[pcruz]

I think its fair to say kessel is one of the laziest defensive s.o.b to ever play in the nhl. He would definitely clash with Babcock behind closed doors. Then it would get to a boil over point after Kessels indifference continued and babs would bench him. Thats asset devaluation if it happened. The even worse scenario is it festers behind closed doors of the dressing room and rubs off on the rookies and newcomers in a negative way.

I'm thrilled that players like kessel aren't welcome to wear the leaf.

There is literally nothing to support any of the things you posted here.
Sadly, there are many who actually see things just as you do.

This is just regurgitating the same nonsense that Cox, Simmons, Feschuck and Ron Wilson have said. It also contradicts the things said by team mates (current and past), coaches and general managers.

Who is it that's been writing about Kessel and his love for hot dogs? Simmons. Who was another T.O. star player that that genius attacked? Local hero Jose Bautista. Oh yes, Mats Sundin as well...
Sounds like the kind of guy I want to take inspiration from.

 

[CBinTokyo]

The minute that the organization decided they would not or could not build an actual team around the players they had in place - Kessel, Phaneuf, Rielly and Bernier - the bigger name players had to be moved strictly because the team needed to accumulate as many assets as possible, and by assets I mean draft picks and recently drafted players with potential, but unproven.

Sadly, there was only 1 player on this team that even had enough value for that, and it was Kessel.

The thing is, one can accept the move, agree that it had to be made, accept the consequences of making such a move and still not resort to childish name-calling, rumour mongering and asinine accusations.

I've been saying the same things since Sundin and Kaberle was so unceremoniously dealt with by this fanbase. Wait until that player moves on and then come complaining that we need a player just like that!

How long have we been pining for a legitimate #1 centre?
When was the last time we had a defenseman who could take charge of the rush, create open space for the forwards, gain the offensive zone, shake off pressure behind the net and break out of the defensive zone?
Now, the new question will be, how long will it take to get a player in this organization who can score 30+ goals a year with or without a proper supporting cast, generate offense, put defenders on the back-heel and improve the offensive statistics of not only line-mates, but the rest of the team indirectly?

It's possible that Nylander and/or Marner can be one of those 3 items I listed above, but it's also just as possible that they both turn out like Kadri - a solid #2 guy!

All I have ever said is that there are so many faults to Kessel's game on the ice, that there is absolutely no need to make things up about possible issues with work ethic, likability, and his relationship with the rest of the team.

I hope you didn't take my questions as the bolded! I tend to agree with most of what you have said.

Whenever I think of Kessel and Phaneuf and how "they don't fit the rebuild and they both have to go", I remember the video clip of the team on the stationary bikes. Phaneuf was pumping away working his arse off and Kessel was gliding along. I know this is one snapshot, but it stuck with me. When changing culture you can't keep the gliders, especially if they are the defacto leader of the team (in terms of talent, skill and points). Even if Phaneuf has to go for other reasons, he at least gives it his all or at least appears to.

We will certainly have different opinions on the board, and I 100% agree that the only way to discuss them is to do away with the name calling and asinine accusations.

 

[pcruz]

Fair enough, that was also definitely a possibility but not without its own set of risks.

Having said that, when you want to change the culture of a group, you need to make changes (even symbolic ones). Trading Kessel was a strong message to everyone that no one is untouchable. We got some value for him and now the team can move forward.

We on the Leafs Board, however, may never move forward from the Kessel trades.

Considering that people are still hard-set on the fact that Kessel cost this team Tyler Seguin and Douggie Hamilton, that's not only possible, it's likely.

It's downright embarrassing that players are blamed for things they have literally no control over.

I wonder how many times Bruins fans have blamed Ericsson for losing Seguin?

It's really funny listening to new players and coaches talk about Leafs fans when they say that this fanbase is sophisticated and knowledgeable. Sadly, the vocal minority just spews the same crap that it's fed by the poisonous media outlets, disrespects the team by throwing objects on the ice (waffles, jerseys, etc), attempts to, and at times succeeds in, publishing libelous remarks regarding members of the various teams, and hates on former players who had any sort of major role in the team - T-Mac, Carter, Bosh, Sundin, Kaberle, Kessel, Wells, Christie, etc...

 

[Wafflewhipper]

There is literally nothing to support any of the things you posted here.
Sadly, there are many who actually see things just as you do.

This is just regurgitating the same nonsense that Cox, Simmons, Feschuck and Ron Wilson have said. It also contradicts the things said by team mates (current and past), coaches and general managers.

Who is it that's been writing about Kessel and his love for hot dogs? Simmons. Who was another T.O. star player that that genius attacked? Local hero Jose Bautista. Oh yes, Mats Sundin as well...
Sounds like the kind of guy I want to take inspiration from.

Yes, many see it differently than you. Maybe there is something to it. No? I would like all defensive liabilities eliminated from the roster including Jvr. Its not personal with me. I preference two way players with a solid work ethic. I care less if he eats hotdogs or double cream cheese bagels with bacon and swigs wine straight out of the bottle to wash it down. What he exibits as a player is what matters.

He was a good scoring winger with very limited defensive will or ability. Its not personal at all with me.

 

[pcruz]

I hope you didn't take my questions as the bolded! I tend to agree with most of what you have said.

Whenever I think of Kessel and Phaneuf and how "they don't fit the rebuild and they both have to go", I remember the video clip of the team on the stationary bikes. Phaneuf was pumping away working his arse off and Kessel was gliding along. I know this is one snapshot, but it stuck with me. When changing culture you can't keep the gliders, especially if they are the defacto leader of the team (in terms of talent, skill and points). Even if Phaneuf has to go for other reasons, he at least gives it his all or at least appears to.

We will certainly have different opinions on the board, and I 100% agree that the only way to discuss them is to do away with the name calling and asinine accusations.

No, I didn't. I have repeated that remark over and over again, but it seems like there are some who can't focus on the deficiencies of athletes that are visible, noticeable and quantifiable, but do focus on hearsay, rumours and the like.

As for the bolded, there's one major flaw in judging anyone based on a 2 second clip - there is no context!

How do we know how far long Kessel's, Dion's and the other players' cooldowns this took place?
How long had Kessel been on the bike at that point and what part of the routine (warm-up, cardio work-out or cooldown) was he at?
How about the other players on the same clip going nearly as slowly?

There are so many factors that we, as outsiders, can't make judgements on. That's why I tend to take the word of players more highly than most people who don't have real, unfettered access to the players at all times.....even though I generally take players' words with a giant grain of salt.

 

[pcruz]

Yes, many see it differently than you. Maybe there is something to it. No? I would like all defensive liabilities eliminated from the roster including Jvr. Its not personal with me. I preference two way players with a solid work ethic. I care less if he eats hotdogs or double cream cheese bagels with bacon and swigs wine straight out of the bottle to wash it down. What he exibits as a player is what matters.

He was a good scoring winger with very limited defensive will or ability. Its not personal at all with me.

That last sentence is exactly what would be used to describe someone like:

Kovalchuk - In Atlanta and first year in NJ
Kovalev
Mogilny
Selannee
Bure
Hull
Heatley
...
...

If you want to say that those guys were some of the very best offensive wingers, then I say to compare Kessel to the very best of the league over the last 5 years and look up his production rankings. You won't have to go far down that list to find him I can assure you.

As for the main part of your post. It's great that there are many who disagree with my point of view. However, hyperbole like "I think its fair to say kessel is one of the laziest defensive s.o.b to ever play in the nhl." leads people like me to immediately dismiss any valid points you make.

If you were to have said that you believe Kessel to be lazy in the defensive zone and that he appears to have a poor work ethic based on his reluctance to improve in his defensive responsibility, that would be much improved and more palatable, and quite frankly, universally agreed upon.

 

[CBinTokyo]

No, I didn't. I have repeated that remark over and over again, but it seems like there are some who can't focus on the deficiencies of athletes that are visible, noticeable and quantifiable, but do focus on hearsay, rumours and the like.

As for the bolded, there's one major flaw in judging anyone based on a 2 second clip - there is no context!

How do we know how far long Kessel's, Dion's and the other players' cooldowns this took place?
How long had Kessel been on the bike at that point and what part of the routine (warm-up, cardio work-out or cooldown) was he at?
How about the other players on the same clip going nearly as slowly?

There are so many factors that we, as outsiders, can't make judgements on. That's why I tend to take the word of players more highly than most people who don't have real, unfettered access to the players at all times.....even though I generally take players' words with a giant grain of salt.

All extremely valid points.

Here is the clip in question.

You are right we don't know the full context. But still this image stuck with me. At the end of the day all we really can know about Kessel is what we see on the ice, and that is also coloured by our own opinions.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss what we believe, or that we shouldn't speculate on what may have been the reasons for certain actions. That's what we as people do. We look at what is out there and we form opinions. The hard part is being open to changing them.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

We are surely going to come in 30th if we never play any games. This wait is so long

 

[pcruz]

All extremely valid points.

Here is the clip in question.

You are right we don't know the full context. But still this image stuck with me. At the end of the day all we really can know about Kessel is what we see on the ice, and that is also coloured by our own opinions.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss what we believe, or that we shouldn't speculate on what may have been the reasons for certain actions. That's what we as people do. We look at what is out there and we form opinions. The hard part is being open to changing them.

I believe that the hardest part is to accept players for who they are, acknowledge their faults and try to focus on their strengths.

When we traded for Kessel I thought - we're giving up 3 possible NHL pieces, for an established, legitimate top end offensive winger.

I had no aspirations for Kessel to be a Selke contender, but I thought that with the right team mates, he could possibly be in contention for the Art Ross, Richard and possibly Hart. 2 of those were real possibilities while he was in Toronto including the Hart where even haters like Cox had articles as to why Kessel should possibly be in the mix for that nomination.

I was never disappointed (until the second half of last year) with Kessel's lack of commitment defensively, because although I'd like him to be more engaged back there, I knew that wasn't part of his game. What disappointed me more, was that there was never anyone put on his line to do that kind of dirty work for him. The other reason I wasn't overly disappointed is that he's a winger and if there is one position on the ice that I can digest having a weak defensive player, it's on the wing....I can't stand defensemen who can't defend properly and I want my centres to be strong - physically, on the puck and off the puck.

The thing is that we could possibly be looking at a scenario where we have 2 players who could max out at Kessel's offensive abilities (potentially), but could also be just as great defensively! We don't know because sadly, this team is so poor that the management has chosen to keep Nylander in the minor leagues rather than see how he fares with this group of players.

 

[Swayze*]

Lotta solid tanking going on

We're getting out-tanked right now!!!

 

[HellasLEAF]

So many good teams ice cold.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

Funny how the Yotes already look so much better than the Oilers

Edmonton seems to be in a perma-tank mode

 

[JackJ]

And keeping Kessel isn't making some small gamble like people think. Given his contract, keeping Kessel would've been more like playing Russian Roulette with an RPG.

A game the Leafs lost with Phaneuf by waiting until the summer for a better deal.

 

[Swervin81]

This is one of the dumbest things people spout off all the time without a shred of evidence or fact base. It's pure speculation based on rumours (started by a highly questionable source named Wilson, who previously had been hated in the city for his abysmal coaching) that have never been confirmed and repeatedly denied by team mates and staff that have played with or coached Kessel.

Not only that, but there is a very similar situation going on right now as we speak with very similar circumstances in Washington.

Hell, Ovechkin was just benched for a game for being late.

That mix has certainly worked much better than anyone gave either Barry Trots or Alex Ovechkin credit for beforehand!

It's absolutely pathetic what people in this fanbase will resort to when they are force-fed rumours and hearsay from such reliable sources as Damien Cox, Steve Simmons, etc....Hell, even Arash Madani and some of the comments he's made about Blue Jays players.

Oh dear, where to begin. First of all, what I meant was Kessel will be benched for piss poor defensive zone effort and 200 ft game/adherence to systems, which is pretty much what Babcock preaches. His style of coaching with Kessel's style of play would be a HORRIBLE fit. Especially since there would still be an expectation for him to be the man while he's still here, when he quite clearly isn't cut out to be the franchise guy. I didn't AT ALL say that Babcock and Kessel would be a personality clash (which you seem to have assumed). Hell, I've never bought into Kessel being a bad personality/cancer in the room. That is the furthest thing I think Babcock and Kessel would clash on.

As for as OV goes, he was late for a practice, and he was scratched. Nothing to do with on ice play or lack of effort, he was just late. Nothing more, nothing less. Can't let him get away with that and end up causing a double standard to form, so sitting him for a game is the right call. Completely isolated incident. Oh, and you don't hear anything coming out of Washington with Trotz and OV being personalities clashing. If OV was being lazy and not playing the way Trotz would want him to, then that'd be similar. This isn't whatsoever.

 

[Dragao6]

A game the Leafs lost with Phaneuf by waiting until the summer for a better deal.

There's a big difference between these two players though. Kessel is what he is but he's a top notch offensive player, has been every year and u can see the skill everytime he gets the puck. I keep reading we need to trade him because of getting picks etc...BS. I would have prefer to keep him until we got proper return but it's over and I'm over it. Don't kid urself we only traded kessel so that our offense is worse do we can guarantee losing from the start of this season fof top 3 pick. If we did that last year we would gave mcdavid or eichel so management didn't want make same mistake. Kessel git 25 goals and that's a horrible season that's how good hd is, I think he had 25 goals by January already lol.

Dion has consistant ly shown to be a average defenceman making top dollars so what return did u think we're getting offered? That's why he is still here. If the kessel trade didn't involve retaining money I would be ok with the trade, crazy to think we kept money on a player like that...that's how much this management wants to lose for matthews and we agreed to this rebuild so let's support because if we still had kessel we would Prob be 2-1 right now after beating ottawa and montreal. Keep ur eyes on the marlies that's where the future is and where change in culture begins

 

[Cor]

God, the Oilers are going to get Matthews too aren't they?

"Edmonton. We ruin elite talents."

 

[Warden of the North]

God, the Oilers are going to get Matthews too aren't they?

"Edmonton. We ruin elite talents."

They need Chychrun if given the opportunity.

And yes, it will be sickening to see them with a pick in the top 10

 

[CBinTokyo]

God, the Oilers are going to get Matthews too aren't they?

"Edmonton. We ruin elite talents."

If Edmonton doesn't make the playoffs, then they will win the lottery no matter where in the bottom they finish. The Hockey Gods have decided!