Player Discussion Official Former Leafs Thread

[Zybalto]

Why? It's scoring (which isn't blocked shots), and adds the perspective of relative ice time.

What now? You obviously don't want to talk about my points and don't acknowledge criticism of yours.

Heh,

I was talking about total 5v5 impacts not /60 production.

Its why I,

1. Gave the example of modern goal scoring/60 god Kempe and why he actually wasnt as effective as the numbers made out.

2. Took it to the Macro level with the example of the Leafs/Stars last year. (Leafs higher /60 production means very little)

3. Gave the Barkov example of a guy that has poorer /60 production and yet is still effective in his role and seen as a success as hes on a winner.

I responded to you.

Im at even more of a loss now. Not only have I responded to your /60 stuff with more depth than almost anyone responding to anything in this thread but you are asking me to respond to your critisism of my points when you havnt even made any.

 

[Nineteen67]

Growing hockey is good. No complaints.

The competitive spirit and fairness of a legit sport is in lesser leagues and international venues.

It’s competitive and fair.

 

[Antropovsky]

yeah sure

Marner playing right now with howden and Karlsson and playing his best playoff hockey

His previous best playoff was when he played with Plekanec ( at 35) and Marleau...

In term of quality player, its the 2 worst line Marner played in playoff...

If the quality of teammate is what should determine everything, its not whats happenning in the reality.

Karlsson has routinely been an excellent playoff performer:

 

[Gary Nylund]

years upon years of arguments over the fundamental character and composition of this player persisted through the Olympics (where he was clearly one of Canada's best players) and Vegas's underwhelming regular season (subtraction by addition), then we moved on to predictions of a playoff disappearing act that was just around the corner as soon as whatever thing happened next. met with the reality that he's probably been the best and most important player all season on a team that's 2 wins away, one half of those arguments will just decide that he's become an entirely different player. and yeah the other half will find that conclusion pretty wild.

So you don't think he's playing any different now for Vegas then he did in the playoffs for Toronto?

 

[Antropovsky]

Growing hockey is good. No complaints.

The competitive spirit and fairness of a legit sport is in lesser leagues and international venues.

Florida has a bunch of extra money again and most of their team already under contract. With the cap going up substantially over the next few years, its gonna be interesting to see how much more Vegas, Fla and Tampa pull ahead. Though Tampa's core is getting older. I read a Fla fan say lets trade for Shesterkin... imagine? Lol

 

[Antropovsky]

So you don't think he's playing any different now for Vegas then he did in the playoffs for Toronto?

Nope, this is just a coincidence.

Vegas 19 gp


Toronto 13 gp

 

[Nineteen67]

He doesn't sound like he is trolling at all.

He does says 15% to Canadian markets. I didn’t realize he mentioned a number.

As far US cities go it’s not that big of deal to even consider changing it

Canada offsets it paying in US dollars and tax avoidance through bonus payments, etc.

Even it it was 15% which it really isn’t, but I still don’t why people continue to push numbers that differ by 20 -25%. Heck I’ve seen 30%.

I understand in order to convince players to live in most Canadian markets there’s a built in flat rate that has to be paid before even considering a contract. For Marchand it was probably 2 million.He probably would have wanted close to 38 million to play in Toronto ((5.25 base + 2 residence tax) 1.05 tax difference )*5 yrs

 

[Zybalto]

I dont think Howden is shooting 35% and Marner 20% against any of the goalies we faced, thats for sure.

The fact he got to light up anti-clutch Andersen must have felt good for Marner.

Was there ever a bigger playoff goaltending difference for a playoff team over a decade in history than between the Leafs and their opponants?

 

[Antropovsky]

I dont think Howden is shooting 35% and Marner 20% against any of the goalies we faced, thats for sure.

The fact he got to light up anti-clutch Andersen must have felt good for Marner.

Was there ever a bigger playoff goaltending difference for a playoff team over a decade in history than between the Leafs and their opponants?

Fla dusted off carolina in 5 games last year.

Hate to sound like a broken record, but at this point the only thing beating a no tax state is another no tax state.

Though Carolina and Montreal have done very well in locking in some players long term before they hit big which helps them even the field a bit but good luck getting players to do that regularly.

 

[leafs in five]

So you don't think he's playing any different now for Vegas then he did in the playoffs for Toronto?

No not really aside from obviously feeling vs fighting it. The last Boston series is an exception. Certainly not much different than he played in the Olympics when he created like a half dozen really good chances that weren't converted and everyone who already thought he disappeared in big games declared it another disappearing act in a big game

 

[notDatsyuk]

1- the only part im agree with you its when you talking than Nylander leading the way this season and thats exactly where. Thats 100% but the rest of the team exactly played the Nylander style...completly desengaged in the defensive side, extremely inconsistent with compete level, selfish and only care about their own stats.

2- you try to convince i dont know who than who you playing with are more important than the matchup you playing against.

Just in term of energy, you will let much more energy on the ice defending vs kucherov/ barkov/Tkachuk, Whatever how skill you are, if you wasting 30 sec to start a shift to defend vs Kucherov exemple... good chance than the last 15-20 sec remaining of your shift, your energy would be lower and be less useful to your team

mtl vs car, thats exactly whats happening. Mtl defending themself pretty well in majority of the time but when it was the time to attack and create something, they didn't had energy left anymore... after only 3 game they was already out of gaz.

thats taking you much more energy to defend than you need to attack. so yeah if you need to take majority of your energy just to defend, that will affect you in the offensive side much more than the quality of player you will play with to vreate something in the offensive side. thata probably reason #1 to explain Marner succes in vegas, hes not the only played really trust defensively anymore because you can basically trust every single player in vegas in any kind of situation. So he dont have to waste as much energy to defend and when gm 5-6-7 game come, he still have energy left in his tank and so able contribute easier

1 Your saying you agree and then saying the complete opposite doesn't make much sense.

2 I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just pointing out that whatever you are talking about had nothing to do with my post.

 

[Gary Nylund]

No not really aside from obviously feeling vs fighting it.

I don't know what that means.

The last Boston series is an exception. Certainly not much different than he played in the Olympics when he created like a half dozen really good chances that weren't converted and everyone who already thought he disappeared in big games declared it another disappearing act in a big game

I didn't mention the Olympics, I was talking his play right now vs his play with Toronto.

It seems like you're obfuscating because you don't want to answer a simple yes or no question. I suspect you're not an idiot and you know perfectly well that Marner right now is playing at a level he never came close to achieving in the playoffs in nearly a decade in Toronto but for some reason, you can't bring yourself to admit it. That being the case, I won't waste any more time trying to get a straight answer from you, you can continue talking about the Olympics and whatever else now.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Heh,

I was talking about total 5v5 impacts not /60 production.

Its why I,

1. Gave the example of modern goal scoring/60 god Kempe and why he actually wasnt as effective as the numbers made out.

2. Took it to the Macro level with the example of the Leafs/Stars last year. (Leafs higher /60 production means very little)

3. Gave the Barkov example of a guy that has poorer /60 production and yet is still effective in his role and seen as a success as hes on a winner.

I responded to you.

Im at even more of a loss now. Not only have I responded to your /60 stuff with more depth than almost anyone responding to anything in this thread but you are asking me to respond to your critisism of my points when you havnt even made any.

So your response to perspective is small samples of unrelated players in different situations?

It's obvious we are talking in completely unrelated and futile directions, so I think it's time to quit.

 

[Zybalto]

Fla dusted off carolina in 5 games last year.

Hate to sound like a broken record, but at this point the only thing beating a no tax state is another no tax state.

Though Carolina and Montreal have done very well in locking in some players long term before they hit big which helps them even the field a bit but good luck getting players to do that regularly.

Your preaching to the choir on that one. Some places obviously have an advantage when it comes to cap.

Im surprised so many folks like the cap system in the first place. I cant think of a more unfair system to the fans. If you come from an area that is the most supportive of the game and throw your hard earned dollars at it, you have to be on par and subsidize a place that thinks very little of the sport to "grow the game" all while the same league stifles the sports growth in every other way iinternationally and those same nobody franchises even have an edge with tax loopholes that the league gleefully won't address

Its like some kind of corporate socialism and there's zero proof it even helps in the first place.

The most immoral thing you could do in that system too is to flat cap it to screw over any teams that just signed big deals.....yea.

 

[thusk]

Karlsson has routinely been an excellent playoff performer:

View attachment 1251506

yeah for sure

1-defensive minded 1st

2-work hard, battling, forechecking

its how vegas is build and every player no exception playing that way and its how you got the puck in playoff.

Whats important in playoff is not how many time you able to keep the puck on your stick but how many time youre able to bring back the puck in your side..

always the same story... leafs trying to carry the puck in offensive end in possession, when its working they cycling it and struggling to find anything open taking a shot... the puck going in the corner you got knies et JT going to get it most of the time 1v2 or 2v3... the rest of player just staying outside and hoping the puck come in their side unstead of coming and help their teammate to win that battle... result leafs lost like 90% of those battle and was pretty trash in pp because like i said i not how long you keep the puck on your stick whos really matter but how many time you get it back

 

[Zybalto]

So your response to perspective is small samples of unrelated players in different situations?

It's obvious we are talking in completely unrelated and futile directions, so I think it's time to quit.

The fact you were talking an unrelated direction was my point all along.

Cheers.

 

[ACC1224]

No not really aside from obviously feeling vs fighting it. The last Boston series is an exception. Certainly not much different than he played in the Olympics when he created like a half dozen really good chances that weren't converted and everyone who already thought he disappeared in big games declared it another disappearing act in a big game

After watching the 4 Nations, Olympics and now the Playoffs it really just confirms what many of us Leaf fans knew, the problem was always more the environment than the player.

 

[leafs in five]

I don't know what that means.

Playing with tons of confidence is different to playing a totally different game. He is obviously on a heater.

I didn't mention the Olympics, I was talking his play right now vs his play with Toronto.

It seems like you're obfuscating because you don't want to answer a simple yes or no question. I suspect you're not an idiot and you know perfectly well that Marner right now is playing at a level he never came close to achieving in the playoffs in nearly a decade in Toronto but for some reason, you can't bring yourself to admit it. That being the case, I won't waste any more time trying to get a straight answer from you, you can continue talking about the Olympics and whatever else now.

I mentioned the Olympics, in the post you replied to originally. The rest of this is fishing for drama. "obfuscating"

 

[Daisy Jane]

Canada offsets it paying in US dollars and tax avoidance through bonus payments, etc.

you keep saying this but you're missing the point.
those bonuses - may not be "tax avoidance" (which i'm still pretty sure it is. it's still money). but it's still on the cap. Canadian teams & teams with high taxes still have to pay a player 15-16m dolllars. on the cap.

Vegas, Florida, Tampa, Nashviille, Dallas and the teams without state taxes can pay players 11-13m dollars.

everyone wants to crow how these teams are so deep etc - sure they are. because they save roughly 1-4m dollars per player.

the league wants to bleat parity and everyone has the same "advantage" [which is why we needed the cap in the first place, because florida, tampa, etc etc couldn't survive with the Toronto/Montreal/Detroit/LA'/Boston/Philly (basically everyone north of the Mason-Dixie line] being able to roll out Brink trucks to people's houses) and now when people are pointing out it's basically the same few teams winning the conference and the cup all the time partially because of this, people wanna go. ahh no.. it's just taxes.

if we need to have a cap to make sure every team is equal, then where I am sitting you need to ensure that you make it equal. sure a player can make a sweetheart deal or two, but still

 

[leafs in five]

Nope, this is just a coincidence.

Vegas 19 gp
View attachment 1251513

Toronto 13 gp
View attachment 1251515

Looks like he's skating fewer miles but can't be sure, for whatever reason that part is cut off

 

[Free Vaseline]

continuous flow of hockey vs zone starts man.. i just put pictures for you to sshow you that marner isn't facing top competition with vegas


also here is another stat.... total TOI this playoffs for a 5 on 5 minutes. marner doesn't even lead his own team in 5 on 5 minutes in forwards

View attachment 1251249

Reading comprehension dude.

he’s talking about this series and the last.

 

[Free Vaseline]

Do you have a source that shows Marner was "getting it the worst"?

It seems to be the case that Marner is just the most sensitive. And I say that with confidence when he makes statements like "we support each other and don't get mad at each other during the intermission"

I take that to reference times like when Nylander was on his ass for "complaining". Oh the horror!



Look at the body language of Marner here. He is looking confused and outraged to Matthews because a fellow team mate is telling him stop complaining. He is playing the victim. Things like this apparently upset him and throw him off his game and he needs affirmation from his team mates. Hugs and love.

Sorry but I find that pathetic in a MAN'S sport.

Or…..maybe, just maybe….

Marner knows what a winning team looks like, knows what a winning team behaves like.

He was the MVP when the London Knights won the Memorial Cup


And The sensitive ones are the fans that cried and still cry that he left

 

[Antropovsky]

Or…..maybe, just maybe….

Marner knows what a winning team looks like, knows what a winning team behaves like.

He was the MVP when the London Knights won the Memorial Cup


And The sensitive ones are the fans that cried and still cry that he left

The play immediately before Nylander saying 'quit crying bro' was a shift where the Leafs stacked their line for and sent Tavares, Nylander, Marner, Matthews and Marner on the ice. They had sustained pressure, Marner went to the net and took a light crosscheck and fell like he was shot. He got up slow, turned his back to the play to complain to the ref....as he was complaining, the leafs put the puck to his side of the ice but because he wasnt paying attention Boston got possession and a scoring chance the other way. After the whistle, Marner skated directly to the ref and began complaining again. A few seconds later, on the bench, Nylander infamously looked to his direction and said quit $(@&en crying Bro.

Thats the Marner we got.

 

[leafs in five]

He went to the net? I thought that didn't happen here

 

[Nineteen67]

you keep saying this but you're missing the point.
those bonuses - may not be "tax avoidance" (which i'm still pretty sure it is. it's still money). but it's still on the cap. Canadian teams & teams with high taxes still have to pay a player 15-16m dolllars. on the cap.

Vegas, Florida, Tampa, Nashviille, Dallas and the teams without state taxes can pay players 11-13m dollars.

everyone wants to crow how these teams are so deep etc - sure they are. because they save roughly 1-4m dollars per player.

the league wants to bleat parity and everyone has the same "advantage" [which is why we needed the cap in the first place, because florida, tampa, etc etc couldn't survive with the Toronto/Montreal/Detroit/LA'/Boston/Philly (basically everyone north of the Mason-Dixie line] being able to roll out Brink trucks to people's houses) and now when people are pointing out it's basically the same few teams winning the conference and the cup all the time partially because of this, people wanna go. ahh no.. it's just taxes.

if we need to have a cap to make sure every team is equal, then where I am sitting you need to ensure that you make it equal. sure a player can make a sweetheart deal or two, but still

Players paid the bulk of their salary in July only pay the jock tax on the salary they receive during the year when they play in those punitive tax states, therefore they’re not paying the tax on the full amount paid.

How does the 11 AAV become 15 AAV? . How does a 95 million cap in a fair tax state equal 118 million in punitive tax state?
Doesn’t Canada have a lower federal tax and no FICA.

You can’t have different caps based on location because you could trade or move players so it’s never going to be done.

What they could do is limit signing bonus.