Player Discussion Official Former Leafs Thread

[leafs in five]

and again. that's basically all people wanted. like 50% of Alyn McCauley. heck 50% of what he's doing in Vegas. and he didn't.

He had 11 pts in 6 games vs Tampa in 2023

 

[leafs in five]

8 in 7 the previous year vs Tampa, same as playoff beast Kucherov who was a -5 over 7 games

 

[ACC1224]

 

[Drytoast]

We don't even have to contemplate about what Crosby would do as a Leaf...we saw what Gilmour, Sundin, Clark, Roberts, and even Alyn McCauley did in the playoffs as Leafs. Marner never played with that kind of intensity, nor rose up to that kind of challenge as a Leaf in the playoffs...even Sergei Berezin had more intensity.

Not here anyways. Like Nylander and Matthews, he got caught up being a diva movie star and not a hockey player.

There needs to be an attitude change in that locker room.

 

[Drytoast]

Then he hasn't been paying attention for 9 f***ing years of evidence that there is a difference.

 

[leafs in five]

what does Rod BA know anyway

 

[ACC1224]

what does Rod BA know anyway

Paul probably got to him.

 

[leafs in five]

LOL. No shit Sherlock, any other obvious facts you'd care to share?

Nobody has to do anything here, I just think it's kind of sad that you can't or won't answer a simple yes or no question on a subject you are obviously invested in quite heavily. I used to think you were at least a decent poster, what the heck happened to you?

I answered the question and offered some additional thoughts on the matter. But if you prefer, my answer is: no.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Mitch is producing at an elite level for Vegas at a postseason career best.

Imo on Toronto he was a top 20 player during the season, and regressed to a top 50 player in the playoff. Whether the blame falls on teammates, leaf fans, coaches, management, it doesnt really matter, 9 postseason runs is a lifetime in pro sports and ample opportunity.

If anything id double down that we should've recognized a premium asset in a bad spot years sooner and traded him for a blue chip prospect. That would've turned the clock back on the asset.

At the end of the day you do need to win elimination games. And boy did we look dreadful for a lot of those

 

[Nineteen67]

Mitch is producing at an elite level for Vegas at a postseason career best.

Imo on Toronto he was a top 20 player during the season, and regressed to a top 50 player in the playoff. Whether the blame falls on teammates, leaf fans, coaches, management, it doesnt really matter, 9 postseason runs is a lifetime in pro sports and ample opportunity.

If anything id double down that we should've recognized a premium asset in a bad spot years sooner and traded him for a blue chip prospect. That would've turned the clock back on the asset.

At the end of the day you do need to win elimination games. And boy did we look dreadful for a lot of those

They should have recognized it, or at the very least continued evaluating, before they signed JT. Should have moved one of the core 3 rather than jamming up the cap with we can and we will. The obvious choice then, and now, was not moving Marner or Matthews.

 

[Zybalto]

Mitch is producing at an elite level for Vegas at a postseason career best.

Imo on Toronto he was a top 20 player during the season, and regressed to a top 50 player in the playoff. Whether the blame falls on teammates, leaf fans, coaches, management, it doesnt really matter, 9 postseason runs is a lifetime in pro sports and ample opportunity.

If anything id double down that we should've recognized a premium asset in a bad spot years sooner and traded him for a blue chip prospect. That would've turned the clock back on the asset.

At the end of the day you do need to win elimination games. And boy did we look dreadful for a lot of those

As some folks were posting earlier, there still seems to be a disconnect between what you are claiming here and what the best hockey minds out there right now believe.

Marner's PPG in the playoffs his last few years here has certainly dropped from top 10 ten in the regular season to top 20 in terms of rankings but exactly how much of that is related to playing some of the vaunted franchises of this era with all world HHoF goalies in net and incredible PKs in so many series?

If Marner is still top 20 in the playoffs for PPG and has these type of defensive results:

...against those teams, is he still merely a top 50 player?

It's why its irritating to have posters arund here trying to move away from anything that doesnt call to attention the drop in PPG.

Not doing all the math but I calculated this a long while ago when folks were ripping on Marner and Rielly:


"Overall 5v5 goal differential in games 5-7 (3-5 in covid series) in the playoffs 2019-2024

Rielly: 11-10 = 52% goal differential
Marner: 9-8 = 53% goal differential
Rest of the team without them: 6-25 = 19% goal differential

I cant say Rielly and Marner played all that well overall (especially on special teams) but I have doubts any 2 players can fix just how bad the rest of the depth was in big games. Freddy/Campbell/Samsonov with allergic reactions to making big saves manned the net during this time too. It would take a deep team to make any of those goalies cup champs and that team wasnt it."

The stats have been screaming the Leafs lacked goaltending and depth to face these teams which only leads to a discussion about cap (and anyone bringing up cap without talking about covid might as well be talking about the moon being made out of cheese) I suppose but Marner this NHL season (and Internationally) is confirming a lot of what some folks like me have been banging on about for years.

More than a few folks have become a little more open minded on this but some especially hardcore Leafs fans are just too invested after years of failure and pointing in the wrong direction IMO.

I mean, over the last decade of failures,

Flip the goalies with our opponents, and we win more series than we lost.
Flip the depth with our opponents and we win more series than we lost.
Flip the cores......and its pretty much the same.

Thats what I think anyways......

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

As some folks were posting earlier, there still seems to be a disconnect between what you are claiming here and what the best hockey minds out there right now believe.

Marner's PPG in the playoffs his last few years here has certainly dropped from top 10 ten in the regular season to top 20 in terms of rankings but exactly how much of that is related to playing some of the vaunted franchises of this era with all world HHoF goalies in net and incredible PKs in so many series?

If Marner is still top 20 in the playoffs for PPG and has these type of defensive results:

...against those teams, is he still merely a top 50 player?

It's why its irritating to have posters arund here trying to move away from anything that doesnt call to attention the drop in PPG.

Not doing all the math but I calculated this a long while ago when folks were ripping on Marner and Rielly:


"Overall 5v5 goal differential in games 5-7 (3-5 in covid series) in the playoffs 2019-2024

Rielly: 11-10 = 52% goal differential
Marner: 9-8 = 53% goal differential
Rest of the team without them: 6-25 = 19% goal differential

I cant say Rielly and Marner played all that well overall (especially on special teams) but I have doubts any 2 players can fix just how bad the rest of the depth was in big games. Freddy/Campbell/Samsonov with allergic reactions to making big saves manned the net during this time too. It would take a deep team to make any of those goalies cup champs and that team wasnt it."

The stats have been screaming the Leafs lacked goaltending and depth to face these teams which only leads to a discussion about cap (and anyone bringing up cap without talking about covid might as well be talking about the moon being made out of cheese) I suppose but Marner this NHL season (and Internationally) is confirming a lot of what some folks like me have been banging on about for years.

More than a few folks have become a little more open minded on this but some especially hardcore Leafs fans are just too invested after years of failure and pointing in the wrong direction IMO.

I mean, over the last decade of failures,

Flip the goalies with our opponents, and we win more series than we lost.
Flip the depth with our opponents and we win more series than we lost.
Flip the cores......and its pretty much the same.

Thats what I think anyways......

That is a good response and well presented. All I can really say is from an eye test perspective, our best players looked outmatched in elimination games. The core 4 carried in the playoff games we did win.

The statistics are also screaming that hes never produced like that on Toronto with a prime Auston Matthews

 

[GoonieFace]

He’s having a great playoff plain and simple.

If anyone can’t see the difference in intensity, where he is going on the ice, they are being willfully ignorant.

It’s too bad he was unhappy here and decided to be a bitter little baby instead of just asking to move on years ago.

 

[leafs in five]

not to mention the difference in how wet his hair probably is

 

[thewave]

I don’t see that as unfair nor is it an NHL problem.

It's like allowing one country to use steroids at the Olympics or pay to import the best athletes and give them citizenship. Oh yeah that's right we actually have done that haha. Its fair though. Not really.

Totally on the up and up.

In real sport. The only difference allowed is in your training and preparation. That's the sporting part. If you can buy a 10m player for 8m dollars or outbid me for that player leveraging an external tax advantage Vs me, that's just not fair. It is absolutely a problem and needs addressed or else the NHL will be a joke forever. Even the NBA has some measures like Luxury tax to address the problem.

Why not just allow some athletes to run 80m instead of the full 100m. Numbers are numbers. Paying less for talent is advantage. End of story.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I answered the question and offered some additional thoughts on the matter. But if you prefer, my answer is: no.

It would seem that the English language can be difficult at times.

not to mention the difference in how wet his hair probably is

More insightful commentary. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It's like allowing one country to use steroids at the Olympics or pay to import the best athletes and give them citizenship. Oh yeah that's right we actually have done that haha. Its fair though. Not really.

Totally on the up and up.

In real sport. The only difference allowed is in your training and preparation. That's the sporting part. If you can buy a 10m player for 8m dollars or outbid me for that player leveraging an external tax advantage Vs me, that's just not fair. It is absolutely a problem and needs addressed or else the NHL will be a joke forever. Even the NBA has some measures like Luxury tax to address the problem.

Why not just allow some athletes to run 80m instead of the full 100m. Numbers are numbers. Paying less for talent is advantage. End of story.

Agreed. If someone doesn't see it as a problem then they need to take a closer look.

 

[thewave]

Not here anyways. Like Nylander and Matthews, he got caught up being a diva movie star and not a hockey player.

There needs to be an attitude change in that locker room.

They had it perfect. Babcock and Lou. Then the problematic American got into some troubles, something about a girl, and then he started hanging with rap stars. Then he discovered he was a fashionista and tbh looked strung out a bunch (looked like it to me). Then Mitch was in competition for most pay, feeling unvalued blah blah blah. They should never have apologized, never have listened to the diva crap and just moved on and traded at the first signs.

Nyalnder was the only fair negotiator out of them all.

 

[ACC1224]

not to mention the difference in how wet his hair probably is

That was always my favourite

 

[leafs in five]

They had it perfect. Babcock and Lou. Then the problematic American got into some troubles, something about a girl, and then he started hanging with rap stars. Then he discovered he was a fashionista and tbh looked strung out a bunch (looked like it to me). Then Mitch was in competition for most pay, feeling unvalued blah blah blah. They should never have apologized, never have listened to the diva crap and just moved on and traded at the first signs.

Nyalnder was the only fair negotiator out of them all.

Which rap stars?

 

[thewave]

Which rap stars?

I should have said pop and rap stars. Bieber, Drake, Shaq off the top of my head. He was in that scene and partying as we know about the girl incident etc when he was younger.

 

[Metroid]

he didn't want to be here.
that's on him. and we'll move on.

And the funny thing is, he never will. Toronto and leafs will always be in his head.

 

[leafs in five]

I should have said pop and rap stars. Bieber, Drake, Shaq off the top of my head. He was in that scene and partying as we know about the girl incident etc when he was younger.

I remembered Bieber, didn't recall Drake. I wonder if he ever hung out with Riff Raff

 

[Zybalto]

That is a good response and well presented. All I can really say is from an eye test perspective, our best players looked outmatched in elimination games. The core 4 carried in the playoff games we did win.

The statistics are also screaming that hes never produced like that on Toronto with a prime Auston Matthews

There are so many moving parts to all of it in the ultimate of team sports, its impossible to blame, 1 or 2 or even 5 players though. It wasnt like the Leafs were being blown out is almost any of these series either.

I'm perfectly down to throw shade on Marner for becoming a more perimeter player in the bigger games or the odd flubs (puck over glass) or pushing the play to hard with over the top desperation passes at times.

Special teams were also a mess and Marner bears responsibility for some of that too seeing as he was a big part of both.

In the end, the Matthews/Marner combo were still dominant in their matchups despite Matthews shooting at half his career shooting%, outscoring opponents 31-17 5v5 while Matthews was pretty awful away from him (got outscored 24-18). It might have been something to do with goaltending too though. Nylander wasnt just an outlier from the core but an outlier from the whole team in terms of production.

I mean, overall, the Leafs were a top 5 team over the last decade in terms of regular season play. They were obviously a cup contender. Did they have the weakest goaltending of any cup contender? I think everyone would say yes. Did they face the hardest goaltending of any cup contender in their series over this stretch? Again, I think most people would say yes.

So the Leafs had the worst goaltending and faced the hardest goaltending of any contending team over a decade in what is universally considered the most important position to have in the playoffs? Why are we not talking more about it? Why are we talking about anything else?

These are the things that go through my head lol.

I think Marner himself not being the most likable of characters (thin skinned whiny little bugger) on the media side certainly plays a part here but it feels like hes actually hugely popular in the room and community and that contrast is partly why we see so much pushback.

I know a recent comment has been posted Brindamour's pre-series presser comment be the most telling of all.

When Tulsky had to deflect a question about them trying to trade for Marner the year before and said he couldnt comment to the media about a player on another team, Brindamour said with a smirk, "I can answer that one, What dont you like about him?" and got up and left.

Really weird vibes overall with the hockey braintrust/community rallying around Marner and the Leafs fanbase and media as the bad guys. Maybe I'm reading too much into it?

 

[leafs in five]

And the funny thing is, he never will. Toronto and leafs will always be in his head.

that's how it works with first loves