(Official) Around the NHL 8.0

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May 27, 2012
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As much as I didn't mind Engelland last year, it would have been cool to sign Franson this offseason to fill that spot on the team. I'm guessing you could probably get Franson today for 3 year, @ 3 per, which is essentially what we signed Engelland for last offseason. Engelland is better in his own end no doubt, but Franson has a canon of a shot and is more truculent IMO.

Franson is the better player defensively. According to some stats that people might think is witchcraft, Engelland is worse. This doesn't discount that Franson isn't terrible defensively, but just a better option than Engelland.
 

Johnny Hoxville

The Return of a Legend
Jul 15, 2006
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Franson is the better player defensively. According to some stats that people might think is witchcraft, Engelland is worse. This doesn't discount that Franson isn't terrible defensively, but just a better option than Engelland.

I wouldn't suggest either player is terrible, but if we're talking defensive ability only I'd take Engelland regardless of what stats say. Overall I'd say Engelland is more level headed and makes less errors.
 

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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If you honestly think Franson is better defensively than Engelland I would suggest watching Franson play, he is god awful defensively and I don't think he is as truculent either Hox
 

Anglesmith

Setting up the play?
Sep 17, 2012
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If you honestly think Franson is better defensively than Engelland I would suggest watching Franson play, he is god awful defensively and I don't think he is as truculent either Hox

Franson is fairly truculent in terms of his hit numbers. Likes to throw his weight around. Don't let his leanness and lack of a beard fool you.

Not everyone can beat up two Canucks at once, though.
 
May 27, 2012
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I wouldn't suggest either player is terrible, but if we're talking defensive ability only I'd take Engelland regardless of what stats say. Overall I'd say Engelland is more level headed and makes less errors.

The both aren't great defensive players.

It's because Engelland has to play a simple game. You don't see Engelland starting the breakout or going up on the rush. He obviously isn't as skilled as Franson.
 

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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Franson is fairly truculent in terms of his hit numbers. Likes to throw his weight around. Don't let his leanness and lack of a beard fool you.

Not everyone can beat up two Canucks at once, though.
I know Franson is fairly tough, but Engelland is tougher IMO. I think Engelland is smarter about picking his spots in that regard while Franson is more likely to chase big hits. Engelland is a much smarter player than Franson all around, Franson is just better offensively so people give his lack of intelligence in the defensive zone a pass. And we already have 4 defensemen that can produce offensively.
 
May 27, 2012
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If you honestly think Franson is better defensively than Engelland I would suggest watching Franson play, he is god awful defensively and I don't think he is as truculent either Hox

He is truculent. He averages 3-4 hits a game. games

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/3952/

I also did watch a fair amount of Leafs It's much more convenient and easier for me sometimes compared to watching Flames games due to the timezone. I lost a lot of sleep this past season.
 

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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The both aren't great defensive players.

It's because Engelland has to play a simple game. You don't see Engelland starting the breakout or going up on the rush. He obviously isn't as skilled as Franson.
Skill does not make a player better, more than half of this game is thinking and playing within your abilities. Engelland is good at that, Franson is not.
 

Lunatik

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He is truculent. He averages 3-4 hits a game. games

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/3952/

I also did watch a fair amount of Leafs It's much more convenient and easier for me sometimes compared to watching Flames games due to the timezone. I lost a lot of sleep this past season.
Isn't as truculent does not mean he isn't truculent. I think he makes stupid decision chasing hits, where Engelland is more cerebral and lets the hits come to him. I'm not sure what your hard on for Franson is, but we don't need him, not even a little bit. Even if he adds more offense it will be at the cost of defensive and smart decisions.
 
May 27, 2012
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Skill does not make a player better, more than half of this game is thinking and playing within your abilities. Engelland is good at that, Franson is not.

I'm not saying skill makes him a better player. What I am saying is that because Franson is better offensively and able to do breakout passes and go on the rush may lead to some defensive lapses and opportunity for the opposing team. Unlike Engelland who will stay back rather than go up and be offensive.
 

Anglesmith

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Sep 17, 2012
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From the Leafs games I watched last year, a lot of goals were scored with Franson standing next to the goalscorer, doing nothing. Meanwhile, a lot of goals were also scored with Engelland on the ice in some capacity. So I don't know. I agree with 100TG that Franson lacks IQ and makes poor decisions startlingly often, but is he a worse defenceman than Engelland? I'm not sure whether objective analysis bears that out. There are few ways to look at the results and conclude that Engelland was successful at defending last season.
 
May 27, 2012
17,070
856
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Isn't as truculent does not mean he isn't truculent. I think he makes stupid decision chasing hits, where Engelland is more cerebral and lets the hits come to him. I'm not sure what your hard on for Franson is, but we don't need him, not even a little bit. Even if he adds more offense it will be at the cost of defensive and smart decisions.

I don't have a "hard on" for Franson. I simply said Franson is the better option than Engelland, and people took it badly. I would welcome him for the right price, like the Erhoff deal...we take that. Our D is fine anyways.

You can check this out if you want.

http://www.puckalytics.com/skatercorsistats.html
 

Johnny Hoxville

The Return of a Legend
Jul 15, 2006
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100TG, I wouldn't disagree in that The Ministry of Defence is stronger, but from visually watching I feel like I notice Franson throwing his size around more. But I get where you're coming from, Engelland is no slouch by any means and really holds his position down low extremely well and is more effective at clearing the crease. I think they're different, but both truculent and agree with your assessment of Engelland.
 

Volica

Papa Shango
May 15, 2012
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I would rather have Franson at 1.5 million, over Engelland at 3; independent of Engelland's extra truculace (he just fights more, Franson is physical, and hits quite a bit).

It'd be awesome to kill two birds with one stone, pick up Franson; trade Wideman for a nice upgrade somewhere else... That'd be great.

Moving out Wideman and Engelland and bringing in Franson + the return on Wideman; you could shed a ton of cap right there.
 

Dertell

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Jul 14, 2015
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I get people here see advanced stats... in a different light than me. But I assumed goals were important.

I'm bored so I made a Engelland WOWY (with you / without you) with a bunch of dudes who played 150+ minutes with him, but with GF% (goals for%) instead of Corsi:

Diaz with Engelland: 31.6
Without: 61.9

Smid with Engelland: 14.3
Without: 38.5

Brodie with Engelland: 31.6
Without: 54.5

Monahan with Engelland: 30.8
Without: 54.2

Gaudreau with Engelland: 37.5
Without: 58.0

Hudler with Engelland: 40.0
Without: 56.1

Backlund with Engelland: 31.3
Without: 54.8

Jones with Engelland: 26.1
Without: 60.0

Jooris with Engelland: 27.3
Without: 55.1

Stajan with Engelland: 40.0
Without: 66.7

Byron with Engelland: 28.6
Without: 51.4

Colborne with Engelland: 66.7
Without: 48.8

Bouma with Engelland: 33.3
Without: 62.3

Bollig with Engelland: 25.0
Without: 36.4

Raymond with Engelland: 38.9
Without: 50.0

GF% is a glorified +/- but still, whatever the hell Engelland does on the ice... not good whether you evaluate with goals or shots based metrics.
 

Volica

Papa Shango
May 15, 2012
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^So what you're saying is we need Colborne on the ice always with Engels?
 

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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I don't have a "hard on" for Franson. I simply said Franson is the better option than Engelland, and people took it badly. I would welcome him for the right price, like the Erhoff deal...we take that. Our D is fine anyways.

You can check this out if you want.

http://www.puckalytics.com/skatercorsistats.html
I'm not going to bother with analytics, they are beyond useless.

And no Franson is not a better option.

He is worse defensively. Sacrificing defense for offense is the opposite of what we need to do. using advanced stats to compare guys from different teams (and even often within the same team) is worthless. It's like comparing +/-.
 

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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I get people here see advanced stats... in a different light than me. But I assumed goals were important.

I'm bored so I made a Engelland WOWY (with you / without you) with a bunch of dudes who played 150+ minutes with him, but with GF% (goals for%) instead of Corsi:

Diaz with Engelland: 31.6
Without: 61.9

Smid with Engelland: 14.3
Without: 38.5

Brodie with Engelland: 31.6
Without: 54.5

Monahan with Engelland: 30.8
Without: 54.2

Gaudreau with Engelland: 37.5
Without: 58.0

Hudler with Engelland: 40.0
Without: 56.1

Backlund with Engelland: 31.3
Without: 54.8

Jones with Engelland: 26.1
Without: 60.0

Jooris with Engelland: 27.3
Without: 55.1

Stajan with Engelland: 40.0
Without: 66.7

Byron with Engelland: 28.6
Without: 51.4

Colborne with Engelland: 66.7
Without: 48.8

Bouma with Engelland: 33.3
Without: 62.3

Bollig with Engelland: 25.0
Without: 36.4

Raymond with Engelland: 38.9
Without: 50.0

GF% is a glorified +/- but still, whatever the hell Engelland does on the ice... not good whether you evaluate with goals or shots based metrics.

So basically you spewed all that to say players score more with offensive defensemen on the ice? Gee, that's groundbreaking stuff.
 

tmurfin

That’s the joke
May 8, 2010
11,256
1,310
**** it. Engelland beat up two Canucks at once he's always welcome.

And if we could get a one year deal, maybe? There is a such thing as too many chefs in the kitchen, and adding someone like Franson for one year takes away the possible development of one of our young dmen.

People are forgetting we are still very much rebuilding and looking to the future.. We're not in the "rental/vet depth/win now" phase.
 

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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**** it. Engelland beat up two Canucks at once he's always welcome.

And if we could get a one year deal, maybe? There is a such thing as too many chefs in the kitchen, and adding someone like Franson for one year takes away the possible development of one of our young dmen.

People are forgetting we are still very much rebuilding and looking to the future.. We're not in the "rental/vet depth/win now" phase.
This is another reason why Engelland is more valuable to us than Franson IMO. He is more of a team first guy, someone like Stajan who understands small roles can be important and this sets an excellent example for the kids coming up.
 

SmellOfVictory

Registered User
Jun 3, 2011
10,959
653
So basically you spewed all that to say players score more with offensive defensemen on the ice? Gee, that's groundbreaking stuff.

Since it's a ratio, it's just saying that more goals are scored against than for; whether it's because they're creating less offense or preventing less chances against, the point he's making is that Engelland is a complete anchor of a player.
 

Lunatik

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Oct 12, 2012
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Since it's a ratio, it's just saying that more goals are scored against than for; whether it's because they're creating less offense or preventing less chances against, the point he's making is that Engelland is a complete anchor of a player.
it's percentage of goals for. not a gf/ga ratio. which is also pointless because different players play different roles. Engelland gets next to no offensive zone starts, on a team as terrible at faceoffs as us that is a death sentence. It's natural for a defense only player to be scored on more, especially on the road where they would get the worst matchups.

Everytime you say something like "Engelland is a boat anchor", it makes me value your opinion even less because it is not even close to being true.
 

Volica

Papa Shango
May 15, 2012
21,650
11,335
You love the toughness Engelland brings, but if you could move him and bring in Franson for a smaller cap hit... you do that all day. What you have from Deryk is pretty much all you're doing to get. Most nights he's a disaster zone that can clear some bodies; Franson's still under 30, and has had some flashes of being a good Dman.

Brodie made Engels look like a legitimate top 4 Dman. IF you swing Franson, who actually has some ability out there... you'd have to wonder what the right partner could get out of him. Paired with Brodie, Franson would look like an absolute stud.

Bit too many moving parts though if we bring in Franson without moving anyone else out.
 

SmellOfVictory

Registered User
Jun 3, 2011
10,959
653
it's percentage of goals for. not a gf/ga ratio. which is also pointless because different players play different roles. Engelland gets next to no offensive zone starts, on a team as terrible at faceoffs as us that is a death sentence. It's natural for a defense only player to be scored on more, especially on the road where they would get the worst matchups.

Everytime you say something like "Engelland is a boat anchor", it makes me value your opinion even less because it is not even close to being true.

I don't expect you to value my opinion much, given how fundamentally we disagree on almost everything.

Since you don't go for the statistical arguments, the only way we could ever possibly hope to hash this out is by watching a shift-by-shift video of Engelland and arguing about it (if one existed, I would actually be willing to do that). But we obviously see a different player at the center of it; I see a low mobility, positionally questionable dude with zero puck skills, and you see a large defensive specialist who clears the crease.

I will say, I don't disagree that he clears the crease or that he's a rough guy to play against. I just don't think those aspects of his game are close to enough to make up for his deficiencies everywhere else. His defense in transition is poor, his abilities in the offensive zone are non-existent, he can't make a breakout pass to save his life, and his agility isn't good enough for him to cover the ice he needs to in many cases.
 
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