Proposal: Off Season Trade Thread vol. III

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Nac Mac Feegle

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Jun 10, 2011
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Wait until others want out too. Will take us awhile to replace Spezza.


meh, I think the whole fuss about people possibly wanting out is overblown. The NHL consists of 30 teams, not 300. If a team like Edmonton can manage to keep their guys happy, there's no reason for a sudden exodus out of Ottawa.
 

Fusbolito

Registered User
Jan 29, 2012
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There's no way we get full value for Spezza. IMO, trading him now is a mistake. Inevitable, but disappointing.

The way our fanbase has treated him, antagonistic from nearly day one (Give or take a year of leeway) has been based on patently unfair expectations. He's been one of the better historical #2 overall picks, and to expect him to be Crosby in the opponents' end and Datsyuk on the defensive side is unrealistic at best and a pure fantasy at worst.

I believe this is severely going to damage the overall 3-year (give or take a year, again) rebuild plan which was, in my opinion, going very smoothly. We were the 4th or 5th (I think) youngest team this year, and would have been even younger if we hadn't resigned Phillips and acquired Hemsky at the deadline. Even given that, we overachieved each of the last two years, and falling back to earth this year has made some people crazy for change for some reason.

As much as people imagine slotting in Zibanejad or Lazar or Da Costa, or hell, I dunno who else, none of them are ready, IMO, and we will be one top-6 centre short without Spezza, not to mention having a dearth of veteran leadership. The way you become a consistently good franchise, as we have seen with Detroit, has been to not rush prospects, even talented ones, have great scouting, and get a little lucky. We have only Neil and Phillips at over 30, and behind them, the oldest players on the team are Methot and MacArthur, if we assume Hemsky and Michalek aren't resigned, which, if Spezza is traded, is a very distinct possibility.

As much as youth is a positive sometimes, and as much as our young guns DO have some playoff experience, we really need some older leaders on the team who have been in all situations, and can bring some placidity when it's needed and rile up the troops when that's required, and bringing in a random 35+ plugger isn't the solution. In addition, I don't think we're in any position, at the moment, to attract any of the win-now veterans who WOULD be a benefit to the team, like an Iginla. Stastny would be nice, but I doubt we are an attractive team to him.

tl;dr: The time to move Spezza isn't now, it's three years ago, if ever. I'd prefer to keep the guy, occasional defensive miscues and all, over what we will inevitably get back for him, and even if we get our pick of the UFA litter this summer, I can't see us finding a better choice for our #1C than the one we already have signed in our organization. Just my two cents, of course.
 

Nac Mac Feegle

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It's been reported repeatedly that it was a disconnect with the coach that caused this split, not a little grumbling by fans.

Quite frankly, if it was grumbling by fans that did it, then Spezza better haul ass to Florida or Phoenix, cause those are pretty much the only other fanbases that would be easier to handle than Ottawa.
 

Fusbolito

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Jan 29, 2012
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My increasingly cynical viewpoint is that nothing the media says with respect to what players, coaches and executives think of each other can be taken at face value, even Bob MacKenzie, who I tend to like. The news media, especially the sports news media, is so taken up with creating drama, manufacturing storylines, and making sure that each market has eight or ten inches of fodder each week, that they can take an offhand comment and blow it up into a full-blown feud.

I remember when, after our frustrating 2009, Spezza said to Murray "I don't want to move, but if you think it's better for the team, go ahead and explore your options." and the media took that as, alternately, Spezza wanting a trade, Spezza hating Murray, Spezza disliking Ottawa, and Spezza missing his BFF Heatley, instead of what it was, which was Spezza telling the team that he cared enough to do whatever they thought was best for the future of the team, even if it meant that he wouldn't be a part of it.

If the players, or, more specifically, Spezza, were discontent with MacLean, we already know from the post-season press conferences that management and the players are of the opinion that MacLean was harder to work with this season, and they wanted the coach of last year back, and MacLean said he would attempt to make that change. You would think that they would at least give them a year more to work with after the exit interviews.

I'm sure noone is ever straight with the media, but I'm equally sure that's because the media is an ouroboros.
 

Suiteness

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Mar 14, 2003
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The way our fanbase has treated him, antagonistic from nearly day one (Give or take a year of leeway) has been based on patently unfair expectations. He's been one of the better historical #2 overall picks, and to expect him to be Crosby in the opponents' end and Datsyuk on the defensive side is unrealistic at best and a pure fantasy at worst.

None of these guys were drafted for their defensive acumen. They applied themselves to excel in that area of the game and their team flourished as a result. It is not coincidental either that the cup winners of the past few years (read 6-7) can all rely on excellent two-way play from their top C's.

Spezza on the other hand has never fully bought into that principle which is the main reason why his career is what it is and the fans never threw their entire support behind him.
 

sam2020

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Apr 1, 2014
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Bobby Ryan may want to play for a team that can afford to surround him with talent

But again that is people depending on rumors and not fact my point is you can make any rumor up and some say it must be true.
 

krapsik

Registered User
Nov 13, 2009
1,478
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Estonia
Bobby Ryan may want to play for a team that can afford to surround him with talent
Bobby Ryan already expressed his will for long term deal with us.
I think if BM plays this table right, we are much better team next season and going forward without Spezza.
 

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
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My increasingly cynical viewpoint is that nothing the media says with respect to what players, coaches and executives think of each other can be taken at face value, even Bob MacKenzie, who I tend to like. The news media, especially the sports news media, is so taken up with creating drama, manufacturing storylines, and making sure that each market has eight or ten inches of fodder each week, that they can take an offhand comment and blow it up into a full-blown feud.

I remember when, after our frustrating 2009, Spezza said to Murray "I don't want to move, but if you think it's better for the team, go ahead and explore your options." and the media took that as, alternately, Spezza wanting a trade, Spezza hating Murray, Spezza disliking Ottawa, and Spezza missing his BFF Heatley, instead of what it was, which was Spezza telling the team that he cared enough to do whatever they thought was best for the future of the team, even if it meant that he wouldn't be a part of it.

If the players, or, more specifically, Spezza, were discontent with MacLean, we already know from the post-season press conferences that management and the players are of the opinion that MacLean was harder to work with this season, and they wanted the coach of last year back, and MacLean said he would attempt to make that change. You would think that they would at least give them a year more to work with after the exit interviews.

I'm sure noone is ever straight with the media, but I'm equally sure that's because the media is an ouroboros.

:handclap:

Well said. Drama sells, and the media would rather take the easy route over integrity.
 

Suiteness

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Mar 14, 2003
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If the players, or, more specifically, Spezza, were discontent with MacLean, we already know from the post-season press conferences that management and the players are of the opinion that MacLean was harder to work with this season, and they wanted the coach of last year back, and MacLean said he would attempt to make that change. You would think that they would at least give them a year more to work with after the exit interviews.

Too risky since Spezza is going into the final year of his contract. If you're rolling the dice on that, you risk having to deal him at the deadline as a rental (For a late 1st round pick) or lose him completly for nothing on July 1st.
 

pzeeman

Registered User
May 15, 2013
1,227
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Aylmer
There's no way we get full value for Spezza. IMO, trading him now is a mistake. Inevitable, but disappointing.

The way our fanbase has treated him, antagonistic from nearly day one (Give or take a year of leeway) has been based on patently unfair expectations. He's been one of the better historical #2 overall picks, and to expect him to be Crosby in the opponents' end and Datsyuk on the defensive side is unrealistic at best and a pure fantasy at worst.

I believe this is severely going to damage the overall 3-year (give or take a year, again) rebuild plan which was, in my opinion, going very smoothly. We were the 4th or 5th (I think) youngest team this year, and would have been even younger if we hadn't resigned Phillips and acquired Hemsky at the deadline. Even given that, we overachieved each of the last two years, and falling back to earth this year has made some people crazy for change for some reason.

As much as people imagine slotting in Zibanejad or Lazar or Da Costa, or hell, I dunno who else, none of them are ready, IMO, and we will be one top-6 centre short without Spezza, not to mention having a dearth of veteran leadership. The way you become a consistently good franchise, as we have seen with Detroit, has been to not rush prospects, even talented ones, have great scouting, and get a little lucky. We have only Neil and Phillips at over 30, and behind them, the oldest players on the team are Methot and MacArthur, if we assume Hemsky and Michalek aren't resigned, which, if Spezza is traded, is a very distinct possibility.

As much as youth is a positive sometimes, and as much as our young guns DO have some playoff experience, we really need some older leaders on the team who have been in all situations, and can bring some placidity when it's needed and rile up the troops when that's required, and bringing in a random 35+ plugger isn't the solution. In addition, I don't think we're in any position, at the moment, to attract any of the win-now veterans who WOULD be a benefit to the team, like an Iginla. Stastny would be nice, but I doubt we are an attractive team to him.

tl;dr: The time to move Spezza isn't now, it's three years ago, if ever. I'd prefer to keep the guy, occasional defensive miscues and all, over what we will inevitably get back for him, and even if we get our pick of the UFA litter this summer, I can't see us finding a better choice for our #1C than the one we already have signed in our organization. Just my two cents, of course.

+1. Especially the bolded part.
 

YouGotAStuGoing

Registered User
Mar 26, 2010
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Ottawa, Ontario
They do it all the time. Media twitter talk and newspaper blogs and editorials are like reading a gossip column.

I resent that implication. Yes, media types do comment on rumour and speculation, especially in blogs. But I can't recall a single incident where overt speculation was presented as fact. That just doesn't happen. Any editor worth their salt would edit that out.
 

pzeeman

Registered User
May 15, 2013
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Aylmer
Now is the time to buy low on Spezza, Ryan and possibly Michalek coming off recent injuries and/or down years, rather than waiting until next year when they (maybe) prove they still have it and end up buying high.
 

Upgrayedd

Earn'em and Burn'em
Oct 14, 2010
5,306
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Ottawa
So the great Jason Spezza teardown begins eh?? Well i suppose the only positive is this time the media and fanbase won't have as much time to turf his value leading up to the trade like they did with Heatley.

This time around though the heir was picked ahead of time so people had a good few years to get their bashing up to snuff. Guessing in a few more years most of the anger towards JS will be delivered to EK if he lasts that along in this town.
 

Fusbolito

Registered User
Jan 29, 2012
230
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None of these guys were drafted for their defensive acumen. They applied themselves to excel in that area of the game and their team flourished as a result. It is not coincidental either that the cup winners of the past few years (read 6-7) can all rely on excellent two-way play from their top C's.

Spezza on the other hand has never fully bought into that principle which is the main reason why his career is what it is and the fans never threw their entire support behind him.

I should mention that I'm also of the opinion that Spezza's defensive miscues are also horrendously overblown by most people. He definitely makes them, yes, but he's also not Ovechkin or of that ilk. Most of Spezza's defensive lapses are errors of comission, not errors of omission. When he makes a blind pass behind himself, he's trying to create offense, he doesn't look like he's a character in a game of NHL '13 whose controller was disconnected.

Hell, one of the plays that most people show to prove he's bad defensively is from the 2010 playoffs, where Sidney Crosby does wind sprints behind the net, with Spezza on his ass the entire way, and all he can manage to do because of Spezza's pretty great defensive play, and good stick position (in that specific situation) is to make a soft pass from his knees out to the point, where Letang takes a crappy snapshot which Elliott should have had. Spezza did everything right there, except to nail crosby, and he's one of the more elusive players in the entire league.

I've heard him described as a dumpster fire in his own end, which I really don't think is the case. He's not Toews, but he also doesn't have the same skillset as Toews, and wouldn't be nearly as good trying to play the same game. Spezza's at his best when he's making amazing cross-ice passes onto the tape of his winger that noone except him saw coming. That's what we'll lose when he leaves, and I think we'll be a worse team for it.

hockeyalltheway said:
I resent that implication. Yes, media types do comment on rumour and speculation, especially in blogs. But I can't recall a single incident where overt speculation was presented as fact. That just doesn't happen. Any editor worth their salt would edit that out.

It's not so much that the media, individually, don't want to present facts as facts, and speculation as speculation, it's that all it takes is one person to take a comment in a different way, and read too much into a simple offhand remark, and it becomes news media item #1, since our media cannibalizes each other on a regular basis, and what the media says is, in and of itself, newsworthy.

Just look at any analyst patting themselves on the back about correctly predicting a deal, or a signing, or what-not. They, usually, haven't heard about this themselves, directly from a source, they usually hear about it from a secondary or tertiary source, and so what may initially have been "Yes, member of the Toronto press, I'm considering all active offers, including those from the Toronto Maple Leafs" becomes "Player X looking to sign with TML" over a twisted version of telephone tag.

Just look at news headlines all over the world. Even the most questionable news headlines don't LEAD with the fact that their source may be an unconfirmed study, or hearsay, or non-empirical evidence, they bury the lead by saying things like "Miracle hormone cures obesity, shows study" instead of "Unconfirmed study claims mice show reduction in caloric uptake" simply because the former is more easily understood, and generates more interest, and thus, more money.

I agree that any editor worth their salt would make sure to clarify, but I think there are far too few concerned about salt, and far too many concerned about advertising revenue.
 

Magix

Registered User
Oct 10, 2010
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Its been a long time coming. Think they are starting to realize the DNA of this team was never going to cut it for this franchise. Hope they ship neil, condra, greening and phillips as well. Let macarthur, karlsson, methot, and turris be the next leadership core.


If they do that its going to be nice watching this team compete night in and night out.
 

John Holmes*

Guest
All players make mistakes. Offensively dynamic players turn the puck over regularly. All of them.

However, Ovechkin's compete level is through the roof, and Spezza barely has a pulse.

Spezza really could have used a teammate like Gary Roberts or Mark Messier. It's too bad he was never held accountable on this team. By anyone.
 

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
35,247
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It's not so much that the media, individually, don't want to present facts as facts, and speculation as speculation, it's that all it takes is one person to take a comment in a different way, and read too much into a simple offhand remark, and it becomes news media item #1, since our media cannibalizes each other on a regular basis, and what the media says is, in and of itself, newsworthy.

Just look at any analyst patting themselves on the back about correctly predicting a deal, or a signing, or what-not. They, usually, haven't heard about this themselves, directly from a source, they usually hear about it from a secondary or tertiary source, and so what may initially have been "Yes, member of the Toronto press, I'm considering all active offers, including those from the Toronto Maple Leafs" becomes "Player X looking to sign with TML" over a twisted version of telephone tag.

Just look at news headlines all over the world. Even the most questionable news headlines don't LEAD with the fact that their source may be an unconfirmed study, or hearsay, or non-empirical evidence, they bury the lead by saying things like "Miracle hormone cures obesity, shows study" instead of "Unconfirmed study claims mice show reduction in caloric uptake" simply because the former is more easily understood, and generates more interest, and thus, more money.

I agree that any editor worth their salt would make sure to clarify, but I think there are far too few concerned about salt, and far too many concerned about advertising revenue.

:handclap:

This guy gets it. Media is about selling a story, not necessarily about telling the absolute truth.

Like a steak, it sells best when you spice it up.
 

derriko

Registered User
Mar 7, 2009
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Las Vegas
Hopefully we can get more of a quality type package back instead of a 3 or 4 piece quantity trade.

I would want a prospect back like Drouin, Kuznestov, Hertl, Mantha, Teravainen, etc as the mainstay if we were to go that route.
 

Dr.Sens(e)

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Feb 27, 2002
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Spezza needs to go some place where he can second fiddle (or third) and play the game the way he plays it. A team where the culture is already formed and he won't have any impact on it, even if he doesn't back check worth a damn. I'm not blaming the guy for all of our problems by any stretch, but we are in the midst of re-creating our culture in the post-Alfie era, and MacLean and others have recognized we needed something from Spezza he wasn't able to give. His back and injuries are no doubt part of this, but it doesn't change the fact we have a ton of 20-25 forwards on our team who are watching how their captain and #1 center plays the game. Alfie had injuries at times, but still showed a good example.

I really do believe he can help a team that is close out west, and there is no shame in both he and the Sens parting ways at this point.

As to getting fair value, the reality is fair value is less than it would have been a few years ago. That should be no surprise to anyone. But the market value in the end will be what some team is willing to pay, which is directly related to HOW MANY TEAMS want him. At this point with at least two potential suitors, there is a decent chance a 3rd or 4th will step up and that is when we might be able to get something comparable to the Ryan deal, which is to say three very good young pieces, versus two (be it a player, prospect or 1st).

And Spezza's agent will obviously be contacted in advance of the deal being done re expectations of an extension, but make no mistake, Spezza will extremely motivated in going to a team who wants to extend him now, versus risking a bad injury plagued year, and then heading into UFA as an injury riddled broken down 34 year old in July 2015.
 

Nac Mac Feegle

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Jun 10, 2011
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All players make mistakes. Offensively dynamic players turn the puck over regularly. All of them.

However, Ovechkin's compete level is through the roof, and Spezza barely has a pulse.

Spezza really could have used a teammate like Gary Roberts or Mark Messier. It's too bad he was never held accountable on this team. By anyone.

Agree with the bolded. I really believe the biggest mistake made early on was getting rid of Jacques Martin. Yes, his style was boring, but another year or two of teaching a good two-way game would've done wonders for all of our kids at the time, not just Spezza.

I still believe the biggest thing with Jason was just not moving his feet enough on the back check. He was never as bad as the OV disconnected gif, but the optics on the back check were never great. Just a little bit more foot movement would've changed perceptions so much.
 
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