OFF SEASON FUN: ... List your top-10 players of all time (MUST INCLUDE AT LEAST 1 NON-NHLer,... pre-NHL, Euro... even if only a 'potential 10th')

VanIslander

23 years of heraldin' wins & intangibles
Sep 4, 2004
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Cyclone Taylor.
Newsy Lalonde.
Frank McGee.

... really... there are dozens more 'what if' arguable top-10 hockey talents that never played in the NHL.

Edit: non-nhl mostly too... enough to make one wonder: was top-10 worthy? E.g., Fetisov, Makarov... Stastny?

How would whatisname from overthere would've fared? ... Sometimes you come across a guy pre-NHL (Russell Bowie) or non-NHL (Jan Suchy) that makes you think: wtf if...
 
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bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
23,083
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Seriously? The headline says MUST HAVE ONE OF TEN NON-NHLer. Yet some can't fathom that.

Great hockey by Soviets, Czechoslovakians, WHLers, pre-NHLers (yes, there was Stanley Cip hockey a quarter century before the league)... there MUST BE a .... POSSIBLE 10th guy on anyone's honest top-10 all time list who ain't an NHLer. Find at least one you might think worthy.

There isn't a top 10 player of all-time non-NHL'er. Your thread was dead on arrival.

Also - no, Hasek does not have an argument for #1.
 

VanIslander

23 years of heraldin' wins & intangibles
Sep 4, 2004
35,787
6,700
South Korea
Groupthink.

How often do so many rave about the #1 draft pick, and then a later rounder goes on to have the best career, each team's experts having multiple kicks at the can!

For decades in hockey history the best players were not able to go to the NHL: pre-NHL years, Soviets, ...

It is entirely possible that a top-10 player of all time wasn't an NHLer. Whether it can adequately evidenced is a DIFFERENT question!
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
30,537
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Connecticut
Cyclone Taylor.
Newsy Lalonde.
Frank McGee.

... really... there are dozens more 'what if' arguable top-10 hockey talents that never played in the NHL.

Edit: non-nhl mostly too... enough to make one wonder: was top-10 worthy? E.g., Fetisov, Makarov... Stastny?

How would whatisname from overthere would've fared? ... Sometimes you come across a guy pre-NHL (Russell Bowie) or non-NHL (Jan Suchy) that makes you think: wtf if...

I'm not buying Bowie or Suchy as better than Cyclone Taylor.

And I like both of those players.
 

jigglysquishy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2011
8,003
8,307
Regina, Saskatchewan
For best pre NHLer, I struggle to see any argument for any player except Cyclone Taylor or Russel Bowie. And I'm being generous with Bowie.

Nighbor, Lalonde, Cleghorn, and Vezina all played in the NHL. Along with Tommy Phillips, they were the only non NHLers in our top 12.
 
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VanIslander

23 years of heraldin' wins & intangibles
Sep 4, 2004
35,787
6,700
South Korea
Lalonde played in the NHL.
Of course. As did Fetisov.

But they ain't qualified as all-time greats because of ANYTHING they did there... thus null and void for this talk that thing.

They are all-time great because of non-NHL accomplishments!

(We aren't 12 year olds... we know what's what.. eh?)
 

MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
10,224
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Anything ?

Being the scoring leader of the new nhl has nothing to do with his all-timer status ? To call:

Someone that never played in the nhl is a bit of a stretch.
 

Matsun

Registered User
Aug 15, 2010
613
500
1: Gretzky. Very strong argument for best regular season peak and a very strong argument for best playoff peak. Clearly the best regular season+playoff peak ever. Add on the best prime ever outside his peak seasons and he is the clear pick for number 1 for me even if he ''only'' played until he was 38.

2: Howe: I think I have him 2, I never really thought about it that much before this list. I feel like his peak is close enough to the next 2 players that his massive edge in prime and longevity makes up for it.

3: Orr: Maybe the highest peak ever, but nothing else. I also feel his teams should've done more in the playoffs. Unlike Mario I actually don't think Orr had another level to reach without injuries, he got to play with ideal teammates and superstars while healthy for a lot of seasons in his peak.

4: Lemieux: Mario has some strong seasons outside his peak unlike Orr, but he has so few peak seasons I still place the defender ahead. I think he has the 3rd strongest peak behind Orr and Gretzky and I could see a case that Mario might've have missed out on his actual peak unlike Orr, but that doesn't affect my ranking.

5: McDavid:
Most Art Ross wins
Wayne Gretzky11
Gordie Howe6
Mario Lemieux6
Connor McDavid5
Jaromir Jagr5
Phil Esposito5

Most times top 3 in points
Wayne Gretzky15
Gordie Howe12
Mario Lemieux8
Connor McDavid8
Sidney Crosby8
Phil Esposito8
Stan Mikita8

Highest playoff PPGGPPPG
Wayne Gretzky2081,84
Mario Lemieux1071,61
Connor McDavid741,58

Most points in a season (no Wayne/Mario)SeasonGPGAPPPG
Steve Yzerman88-898065901551,94
Connor McDavid22-238264891531,87
Phil Esposito*70-717876761521,95
Bernie Nicholls*88-897970801501,9
Jaromir Jagr*95-968262871491,82
*played with Wayne, Orr or Mario

He is right at the point when Bobby Orr's body broke down, 9 years and 630 games in. If that's enough games to put Orr at 3rd I think it's enough games to put McDavid at 5th. McDavids peak might be better than Howes so I can actually see him climb up this list in the future which I never thought about Crosby.

6: Bourque. The Howe of defensemen. Strong peak and GOAT longevity. Also strong in playoffs. Not sure I think his peak is as impressive among defensemen as Howe is for forwards though. I feel that peak Howe would be favored to win the Hart against every forward in history except Mario and Wayne, I don't feel like that for Bourque. I could see players like Robinson or Pronger challenging even a peak Bourque. Still one of the best peaks ever for a defensemen, and my 2nd highest ranked d-man of all time.

7: Jagr. Only Gretzky, Esposito and Jagr have won 4 straight Art Ross trophies. Jagr is also 2nd all time in scoring even though he played through the DPE, 2 lockouts and left for Russia. I also think he has a underrated peak. When McDavid had a dominant season with an asterisk in the covid year, and he proved that season was for real. Jagr had a 149 point season that get an asterisk because he played for that insane Pittsburgh team with Mario and Francis and he never hit 130+ points again. The thing is he did hit those levels again, only he hit them between seasons.

1999 Calendar YearTeamGPGAPP/GP
Jaromir JagrPIT8463891521,81
Teemu SelanneANA8448611091,3
Paul KariyaANA864254961,12
Pavol DemitraSTL853555901,06
Theo FleuryCOL, NYR753258901,2
Pierre TurgeonSTL753553881,17
John LeClairPHI784146871,12
Eric LindrosPHI703750871,24
Joe SakicCOL653552871,34
Owen NolanSJS874342850,98
Jeremy RoenickPHX792952811,03
Tony AmonteCHI853941800,94
Ziggy PalffyNYI, LAK783545801,03
Mike ModanoDAL793742791
Mats SundinTOR753441751
Mark RecchiPHI772649750,97
Petr SykoraNJD832943720,87
Ray WhitneyFLA853041710,84
Alex KovalevPIT863139700,81
Jason AllisonBOS802248700,88

This is the scoring in the calendar year 1999 in the middle of the dead puck era. His 149 point season with Mario was in 1996, 3 years earlier. This stretch of games was between Jagr's 2 seasons were he won the Art Ross with 20 points and then won the Art Ross while missing 19 games. Jagr has no Mario, Francis, Stevens or Coffey on his team. Only Wayne, Mario and McDavid has had more points in a year. Kovalev was Jagr's closest teammate with 70 points and finishing 19th in scoring this period. When Espositio hit 150 Bobby Orr had 139 (jesus), Bucyk had 116, Hodge had 105, Cashman had 79, McKenzie had 77 and Stanfield had 76. When McDavid hit 150+ we saw Draisaitl have 128 points, RNH have 104 and Hyman get 83. When Yzerman hit 150+ Gallant had 93 points, Adam Oates had 78 and Paul McClean had 71. This was Jagrs real peak.

His early playoffs are also underrated, and while his playoffs in his peak are not bad they are not like what McDavid has shown. I think Jagr is really hard to rank. When I compare him to Crosby I have Crosby ahead until age 23 (Jagr 149 point/Crosby first concussion). From that point Jagr is catching up and passing Crosby really quickly when Crosby is injured. But even when Crosby gets healthy Jagr is just better at this point. Even Washington Jagr was comparable to Crosby at the same age.
From ages 29-31TeamPPGPoints
JagrWAS5th5th
CrosbyPIT4th3rd

8: Hasek. I had to have one goalie on this list and I chose Hasek because of his GOAT level peak. He entered the league in his peak so we have very little NHL longevity to go on, but judging how he won goalie of the year for 4 seasons in a row before entering the NHL I feel like he probably had more great seasons for us. I don't give bonus points for that, but I might've given him minus points if he had played and sucked before his peak (kind of unfair, but my list).

9: Crosby. Crosby at the start of his career is nearly GOAT level, but I feel like he lost momentum in his third season (though he started dominating in the playoffs). I'm not sure Crosbys age 22 season when he won the Richard is better than MacKinnons age 22 season in 2018 when he broke out and should've won the Hart. Then Crosbys injuries started ofcourse, but after he got healthy and won the Ross at age 26 he didn't hit 90 points for the next 4 seasons even though he was healthy. I think he has been historically great after age 31.

My big problem with Crosby are not the seasons between 11-13 when he had all those injuries, my problem are the seasons after that. He played 80, 77, 80, 75 and 82 games in the next 5 seasons against easy competition. This was before McDavid, Kucherov, Draisaitl and MacKinnon. Malkin and Stamkos were injured and Ov only scoring goals so I think a healthy Crosby should've dominated the awards these seasons. He won 2 cups in that period so I don't think he minds. We saw young McDavid winning back 2 back Art Ross trophies during that time which makes me feel like they are on a different level as offensive players.

This all feels very critical, but it's only because on the surface Crosby is nearly flawless. All time longevity, all time winner and playoff performer, all time great start to his career and he could've had an all time peak too without injuries. I don't think Crosby is as perfect as that makes it sound.

10: Håkan Södergren. Awesome guy, was at the same gym with my mom.
 
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The Panther

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Mar 25, 2014
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1: Gretzky. Very strong argument for best regular season peak and a very strong argument for best playoff peak. Clearly the best regular season+playoff peak ever. Add on the best prime ever outside his peak seasons and he is the clear pick for number 1 for me even if he ''only'' played until he was 38.

2: Howe: I think I have him 2, I never really thought about it that much before this list. I feel like his peak is close enough to the next 2 players that his massive edge in prime and longevity makes up for it.

3: Orr: Maybe the highest peak ever, but nothing else. I also feel his teams should've done more in the playoffs. Unlike Mario I actually don't think Orr had another level to reach without injuries, he got to play with ideal teammates and superstars while healthy for a lot of seasons in his peak.

4: Lemieux: Mario has some strong seasons outside his peak unlike Orr, but he has so few peak seasons I still place the defender ahead. I think he has the 3rd strongest peak behind Orr and Gretzky and I could see a case that Mario might've have missed out on his actual peak unlike Orr, but that doesn't affect my ranking.

5: McDavid:
Most Art Ross wins
Wayne Gretzky11
Gordie Howe6
Mario Lemieux6
Connor McDavid5
Jaromir Jagr5
Phil Esposito5

Most times top 3 in points
Wayne Gretzky15
Gordie Howe12
Mario Lemieux8
Connor McDavid8
Sidney Crosby8
Phil Esposito8
Stan Mikita8

Highest playoff PPGGPPPG
Wayne Gretzky2081,84
Mario Lemieux1071,61
Connor McDavid741,58

Most points in a season (no Wayne/Mario)SeasonGPGAPPPG
Steve Yzerman88-898065901551,94
Connor McDavid22-238264891531,87
Phil Esposito*70-717876761521,95
Bernie Nicholls*88-897970801501,9
Jaromir Jagr*95-968262871491,82
*played with Wayne, Orr or Mario

He is right at the point when Bobby Orr's body broke down, 9 years and 630 games in. If that's enough games to put Orr at 3rd I think it's enough games to put McDavid at 5th. McDavids peak might be better than Howes so I can actually see him climb up this list in the future which I never thought about Crosby.

6: Bourque. The Howe of defensemen. Strong peak and GOAT longevity. Also strong in playoffs. Not sure I think his peak is as impressive among defensemen as Howe is for forwards though. I feel that peak Howe would be favored to win the Hart against every forward in history except Mario and Wayne, I don't feel like that for Bourque. I could see players like Robinson or Pronger challenging even a peak Bourque. Still one of the best peaks ever for a defensemen, and my 2nd highest ranked d-man of all time.

7: Jagr. Only Gretzky, Esposito and Jagr have won 4 straight Art Ross trophies. Jagr is also 2nd all time in scoring even though he played through the DPE, 2 lockouts and left for Russia. I also think he has a underrated peak. When McDavid had a dominant season with an asterisk in the covid year, and he proved that season was for real. Jagr had a 149 point season that get an asterisk because he played for that insane Pittsburgh team with Mario and Francis and he never hit 130+ points again. The thing is he did hit those levels again, only he hit them between seasons.

1999 Calendar YearTeamGPGAPP/GP
Jaromir JagrPIT8463891521,81
Teemu SelanneANA8448611091,3
Paul KariyaANA864254961,12
Pavol DemitraSTL853555901,06
Theo FleuryCOL, NYR753258901,2
Pierre TurgeonSTL753553881,17
John LeClairPHI784146871,12
Eric LindrosPHI703750871,24
Joe SakicCOL653552871,34
Owen NolanSJS874342850,98
Jeremy RoenickPHX792952811,03
Tony AmonteCHI853941800,94
Ziggy PalffyNYI, LAK783545801,03
Mike ModanoDAL793742791
Mats SundinTOR753441751
Mark RecchiPHI772649750,97
Petr SykoraNJD832943720,87
Ray WhitneyFLA853041710,84
Alex KovalevPIT863139700,81
Jason AllisonBOS802248700,88

This is the scoring in the calendar year 1999 in the middle of the dead puck era. His 149 point season with Mario was in 1996, 3 years earlier. This stretch of games was between Jagr's 2 seasons were he won the Art Ross with 20 points and then won the Art Ross while missing 19 games. Jagr has no Mario, Francis, Stevens or Coffey on his team. Only Wayne, Mario and McDavid has had more points in a year. Kovalev was Jagr's closest teammate with 70 points and finishing 19th in scoring this period. When Espositio hit 150 Bobby Orr had 139 (jesus), Bucyk had 116, Hodge had 105, Cashman had 79, McKenzie had 77 and Stanfield had 76. When McDavid hit 150+ we saw Draisaitl have 128 points, RNH have 104 and Hyman get 83. When Yzerman hit 150+ Gallant had 93 points, Adam Oates had 78 and Paul McClean had 71. This was Jagrs real peak.

His early playoffs are also underrated, and while his playoffs in his peak are not bad they are not like what McDavid has shown. I think Jagr is really hard to rank. When I compare him to Crosby I have Crosby ahead until age 23 (Jagr 149 point/Crosby first concussion). From that point Jagr is catching up and passing Crosby really quickly when Crosby is injured. But even when Crosby gets healthy Jagr is just better at this point. Even Washington Jagr was comparable to Crosby at the same age.
From ages 29-31TeamPPGPoints
JagrWAS5th5th
CrosbyPIT4th3rd

8: Hasek. I had to have one goalie on this list and I chose Hasek because of his GOAT level peak. He entered the league in his peak so we have very little NHL longevity to go on, but judging how he won goalie of the year for 4 seasons in a row before entering the NHL I feel like he probably had more great seasons for us. I don't give bonus points for that, but I might've given him minus points if he had played and sucked before his peak (kind of unfair, but my list).

9: Crosby. Crosby at the start of his career is nearly GOAT level, but I feel like he lost momentum in his third season (though he started dominating in the playoffs). I'm not sure Crosbys age 22 season when he won the Richard is better than MacKinnons age 22 season in 2018 when he broke out and should've won the Hart. Then Crosbys injuries started ofcourse, but after he got healthy and won the Ross at age 26 he didn't hit 90 points for the next 4 seasons even though he was healthy. I think he has been historically great after age 31.

My big problem with Crosby are not the seasons between 11-13 when he had all those injuries, my problem are the seasons after that. He played 80, 77, 80, 75 and 82 games in the next 5 seasons against easy competition. This was before McDavid, Kucherov, Draisaitl and MacKinnon. Malkin and Stamkos were injured and Ov only scoring goals so I think a healthy Crosby should've dominated the awards these seasons. He won 2 cups in that period so I don't think he minds. We saw young McDavid winning back 2 back Art Ross trophies during that time which makes me feel like they are on a different level as offensive players.

This all feels very critical, but it's only because on the surface Crosby is nearly flawless. All time longevity, all time winner and playoff performer, all time great start to his career and he could've had an all time peak too without injuries. I don't think Crosby is as perfect as that makes it sound.
Love this post, and I pretty much agree with the whole ranking and the entire post made by @Matsun . Nicely done!

Except I know nothing about this guy:
10: Håkan Södergren. Awesome guy, was at the same guy with my mom.
Is this some coded way of saying he was in a threesome with your mom and dad...? (sorry, i don't get it)
 
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Matsun

Registered User
Aug 15, 2010
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Except I know nothing about this guy:

Is this some coded way of saying he was in a threesome with your mom and dad...? (sorry, i don't get it)
Damn autocorrect! 😅

He was at the same GYM as my mom and is a great guy. I didnt know who to put so just threw him in.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
30,537
19,366
Connecticut
1: Gretzky. Very strong argument for best regular season peak and a very strong argument for best playoff peak. Clearly the best regular season+playoff peak ever. Add on the best prime ever outside his peak seasons and he is the clear pick for number 1 for me even if he ''only'' played until he was 38.
2: Howe: I think I have him 2, I never really thought about it that much before this list. I feel like his peak is close enough to the next 2 players that his massive edge in prime and longevity makes up for it.
3: Orr: Maybe the highest peak ever, but nothing else. I also feel his teams should've done more in the playoffs. Unlike Mario I actually don't think Orr had another level to reach without injuries, he got to play with ideal teammates and superstars while healthy for a lot of seasons in his peak.

Outside of Esposito, who were the other "superstars" Orr played with?
 
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Matsun

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Aug 15, 2010
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Outside of Esposito, who were the other "superstars" Orr played with?
Superstars was the wrong word, but he did play in a strong team while healthy in his peak. Over his 6 year peak Boston had 5 top 30 scorers outside of Orr:
1st Esposito
3rd Bucyk
8th Hodge
17th Stanfield
28th Cashman

Over Gretzkys 6 year run of 180 point seasons Edmonton had 4 top 30 scorers besides Gretzky:
4th Kurri
6th Coffey
11th Anderson
13th Messier

Best GD 69-75GPGDGD/82
Boston468702123
Montreal468568100
Rangers46844578

Standings 69-75GPPP/82
Boston468653114
Montreal468629110
Rangers468594104

What I tried to articulate was that Mario started getting injured as he was entering his peak and Pittsburgh was getting good, and Orr got injured after having 6 straight healthy peak seasons with an all time great team.
 

BigBadBruins7708

Registered User
Dec 11, 2017
14,270
19,525
Las Vegas
Superstars was the wrong word, but he did play in a strong team while healthy in his peak. Over his 6 year peak Boston had 5 top 30 scorers outside of Orr:
1st Esposito
3rd Bucyk
8th Hodge
17th Stanfield
28th Cashman

Over Gretzkys 6 year run of 180 point seasons Edmonton had 4 top 30 scorers besides Gretzky:
4th Kurri
6th Coffey
11th Anderson
13th Messier

Best GD 69-75GPGDGD/82
Boston468702123
Montreal468568100
Rangers46844578

Standings 69-75GPPP/82
Boston468653114
Montreal468629110
Rangers468594104

What I tried to articulate was that Mario started getting injured as he was entering his peak and Pittsburgh was getting good, and Orr got injured after having 6 straight healthy peak seasons with an all time great team.

You realize those guys were scoring that high because of being on the ice with Orr right? They weren't superstars that he joined, they were average to good players that he elevated to those heights. It's telling that only Bucyk and Espo are HOF'ers in that group and frankly Bucyk is in the Hall because of the Orr bump.

Some context:

Esposito's scoring dropped 40 points per season after leaving the Bruins and Orr
Bucyk had 11 seasons before Orr and was a 60 point player, then with Orr his point totals jumped 50 points
Hodge's per season point totals dropped 40 points without Orr
Stanfield's per season point totals dropped 30
Cashman's per season point totals dropped 20

Additionally, we never saw a healthy Orr. Orr's first injury was his rookie year and he never played on 2 good knees in the NHL.
 
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MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
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Superstars was the wrong word, but he did play in a strong team while healthy in his peak. Over his 6 year peak Boston had 5 top 30 scorers outside of Orr:
Over Gretzkys 6 year run of 180 point seasons Edmonton had 4 top 30 scorers besides Gretzky:

In a 16 team league with the Golden Seals-Atlanta Flames, having a top 30 scorer on your team is not necessarily the same as in 1987, the Rangers during that time frame has 4 of them with 2 others close to that mark.

From 70-75, only 78 forward played 350 games or more (a low but possible number of game you needed to play to be in the top 30 scorer), during Gretzky time it was 125


And has pointed out having the player with the most assists in the league in 5 of those 6 seasons, will boost bruins player's points totals.

To take an extreme example, that would be one-day people of the future looking at Dupuis-Kunitz at the top of the even strength scorer list during prime Crosby years and saying that boosted him quite a bit to be lucky to have them on his team.
 

Matsun

Registered User
Aug 15, 2010
613
500
You realize those guys were scoring that high because of being on the ice with Orr right? They weren't superstars that he joined, they were average to good players that he elevated to those heights. It's telling that only Bucyk and Espo are HOF'ers in that group and frankly Bucyk is in the Hall because of the Orr bump.

Some context:

Esposito's scoring dropped 40 points per season after leaving the Bruins and Orr
Bucyk had 11 seasons before Orr and was a 60 point player, then with Orr his point totals jumped 50 points
Hodge's per season point totals dropped 40 points without Orr
Stanfield's per season point totals dropped 30
Cashman's per season point totals dropped 20
Ofcourse players improved next to Orr, thats why I have him 3rd all time close to Howe in 2nd.

Additionally, we never saw a healthy Orr. Orr's first injury was his rookie year and he never played on 2 good knees in the NHL.

And Hasek might've peaked even higher in his 20s if he had entered the league at a normal age but I don't give bonus points for that. Orr and Hasek both had crazy high. durable and consistent all time peaks so I don't feel the need to play the what if game for them.
 

blogofmike

Registered User
Dec 16, 2010
2,277
1,064
You realize those guys were scoring that high because of being on the ice with Orr right? They weren't superstars that he joined, they were average to good players that he elevated to those heights. It's telling that only Bucyk and Espo are HOF'ers in that group and frankly Bucyk is in the Hall because of the Orr bump.

Some context:

Esposito's scoring dropped 40 points per season after leaving the Bruins and Orr
Bucyk had 11 seasons before Orr and was a 60 point player, then with Orr his point totals jumped 50 points
Hodge's per season point totals dropped 40 points without Orr
Stanfield's per season point totals dropped 30
Cashman's per season point totals dropped 20

Additionally, we never saw a healthy Orr. Orr's first injury was his rookie year and he never played on 2 good knees in the NHL.

Boston became one of the best offensive teams of all time after the Esposito trade. Orr deserves some, but certainly not all of the credit.

Esposito scored 126 points in 1969, setting a new NHL record. Orr was involved in 25 (6 goals, 4 primary assists). When Orr missed time in Boston, Esposito maintained his scoring pace for that season in the games he played without Orr.

Bucyk also had one of his worst seasons playing with a rookie Orr in 1967, before the trade. In 1975-76, he posted his 3rd highest point total, in a season where Orr barely played.

Hodge scored 90 points in 1969. Orr was involved in 14 (3 goals, 8 primary assists, 3 secondary). By contrast, Esposito was in on 58 of the 90 points (16 goals, 30 primary assists, 12 secondary). In 1974, Orr was involved in 28 (5 goals, 11 primary assists, 12 secondary) and Esposito was in on 68 (26 goals, 25 primary assists, 17 secondary).

Stanfield doesn't really get to his 1971-73 totals without Orr - but that's mainly due to powerplay usage. His career high of 52 ES points came in 1972 with Orr involved in 13 of them, but in 1968, when Orr missed half the season, Stanfield scored 47 ES points (Orr was involved in 2 of his ES points).

Cashman's 1974 peak of 89 points has Orr involved in 26 (6 goals, 6 primary assists, 14 secondary.) Esposito was in on 48 (24 goals, 16 primary assists, 8 secondary).
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
18,929
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1: Gretzky. Very strong argument for best regular season peak and a very strong argument for best playoff peak. Clearly the best regular season+playoff peak ever. Add on the best prime ever outside his peak seasons and he is the clear pick for number 1 for me even if he ''only'' played until he was 38.

2: Howe: I think I have him 2, I never really thought about it that much before this list. I feel like his peak is close enough to the next 2 players that his massive edge in prime and longevity makes up for it.

3: Orr: Maybe the highest peak ever, but nothing else. I also feel his teams should've done more in the playoffs. Unlike Mario I actually don't think Orr had another level to reach without injuries, he got to play with ideal teammates and superstars while healthy for a lot of seasons in his peak.

4: Lemieux: Mario has some strong seasons outside his peak unlike Orr, but he has so few peak seasons I still place the defender ahead. I think he has the 3rd strongest peak behind Orr and Gretzky and I could see a case that Mario might've have missed out on his actual peak unlike Orr, but that doesn't affect my ranking.

5: McDavid:
Most Art Ross wins
Wayne Gretzky11
Gordie Howe6
Mario Lemieux6
Connor McDavid5
Jaromir Jagr5
Phil Esposito5

Most times top 3 in points
Wayne Gretzky15
Gordie Howe12
Mario Lemieux8
Connor McDavid8
Sidney Crosby8
Phil Esposito8
Stan Mikita8

Highest playoff PPGGPPPG
Wayne Gretzky2081,84
Mario Lemieux1071,61
Connor McDavid741,58

Most points in a season (no Wayne/Mario)SeasonGPGAPPPG
Steve Yzerman88-898065901551,94
Connor McDavid22-238264891531,87
Phil Esposito*70-717876761521,95
Bernie Nicholls*88-897970801501,9
Jaromir Jagr*95-968262871491,82
*played with Wayne, Orr or Mario

He is right at the point when Bobby Orr's body broke down, 9 years and 630 games in. If that's enough games to put Orr at 3rd I think it's enough games to put McDavid at 5th. McDavids peak might be better than Howes so I can actually see him climb up this list in the future which I never thought about Crosby.

6: Bourque. The Howe of defensemen. Strong peak and GOAT longevity. Also strong in playoffs. Not sure I think his peak is as impressive among defensemen as Howe is for forwards though. I feel that peak Howe would be favored to win the Hart against every forward in history except Mario and Wayne, I don't feel like that for Bourque. I could see players like Robinson or Pronger challenging even a peak Bourque. Still one of the best peaks ever for a defensemen, and my 2nd highest ranked d-man of all time.

7: Jagr. Only Gretzky, Esposito and Jagr have won 4 straight Art Ross trophies. Jagr is also 2nd all time in scoring even though he played through the DPE, 2 lockouts and left for Russia. I also think he has a underrated peak. When McDavid had a dominant season with an asterisk in the covid year, and he proved that season was for real. Jagr had a 149 point season that get an asterisk because he played for that insane Pittsburgh team with Mario and Francis and he never hit 130+ points again. The thing is he did hit those levels again, only he hit them between seasons.

1999 Calendar YearTeamGPGAPP/GP
Jaromir JagrPIT8463891521,81
Teemu SelanneANA8448611091,3
Paul KariyaANA864254961,12
Pavol DemitraSTL853555901,06
Theo FleuryCOL, NYR753258901,2
Pierre TurgeonSTL753553881,17
John LeClairPHI784146871,12
Eric LindrosPHI703750871,24
Joe SakicCOL653552871,34
Owen NolanSJS874342850,98
Jeremy RoenickPHX792952811,03
Tony AmonteCHI853941800,94
Ziggy PalffyNYI, LAK783545801,03
Mike ModanoDAL793742791
Mats SundinTOR753441751
Mark RecchiPHI772649750,97
Petr SykoraNJD832943720,87
Ray WhitneyFLA853041710,84
Alex KovalevPIT863139700,81
Jason AllisonBOS802248700,88

This is the scoring in the calendar year 1999 in the middle of the dead puck era. His 149 point season with Mario was in 1996, 3 years earlier. This stretch of games was between Jagr's 2 seasons were he won the Art Ross with 20 points and then won the Art Ross while missing 19 games. Jagr has no Mario, Francis, Stevens or Coffey on his team. Only Wayne, Mario and McDavid has had more points in a year. Kovalev was Jagr's closest teammate with 70 points and finishing 19th in scoring this period. When Espositio hit 150 Bobby Orr had 139 (jesus), Bucyk had 116, Hodge had 105, Cashman had 79, McKenzie had 77 and Stanfield had 76. When McDavid hit 150+ we saw Draisaitl have 128 points, RNH have 104 and Hyman get 83. When Yzerman hit 150+ Gallant had 93 points, Adam Oates had 78 and Paul McClean had 71. This was Jagrs real peak.

His early playoffs are also underrated, and while his playoffs in his peak are not bad they are not like what McDavid has shown. I think Jagr is really hard to rank. When I compare him to Crosby I have Crosby ahead until age 23 (Jagr 149 point/Crosby first concussion). From that point Jagr is catching up and passing Crosby really quickly when Crosby is injured. But even when Crosby gets healthy Jagr is just better at this point. Even Washington Jagr was comparable to Crosby at the same age.
From ages 29-31TeamPPGPoints
JagrWAS5th5th
CrosbyPIT4th3rd

8: Hasek. I had to have one goalie on this list and I chose Hasek because of his GOAT level peak. He entered the league in his peak so we have very little NHL longevity to go on, but judging how he won goalie of the year for 4 seasons in a row before entering the NHL I feel like he probably had more great seasons for us. I don't give bonus points for that, but I might've given him minus points if he had played and sucked before his peak (kind of unfair, but my list).

9: Crosby. Crosby at the start of his career is nearly GOAT level, but I feel like he lost momentum in his third season (though he started dominating in the playoffs). I'm not sure Crosbys age 22 season when he won the Richard is better than MacKinnons age 22 season in 2018 when he broke out and should've won the Hart. Then Crosbys injuries started ofcourse, but after he got healthy and won the Ross at age 26 he didn't hit 90 points for the next 4 seasons even though he was healthy. I think he has been historically great after age 31.

My big problem with Crosby are not the seasons between 11-13 when he had all those injuries, my problem are the seasons after that. He played 80, 77, 80, 75 and 82 games in the next 5 seasons against easy competition. This was before McDavid, Kucherov, Draisaitl and MacKinnon. Malkin and Stamkos were injured and Ov only scoring goals so I think a healthy Crosby should've dominated the awards these seasons. He won 2 cups in that period so I don't think he minds. We saw young McDavid winning back 2 back Art Ross trophies during that time which makes me feel like they are on a different level as offensive players.

This all feels very critical, but it's only because on the surface Crosby is nearly flawless. All time longevity, all time winner and playoff performer, all time great start to his career and he could've had an all time peak too without injuries. I don't think Crosby is as perfect as that makes it sound.

10: Håkan Södergren. Awesome guy, was at the same gym with my mom.
Nice post, enjoyed reading it and considering your reasons. Proper way to handle the strange gimmick of the thread too.
 

JackSlater

Registered User
Apr 27, 2010
18,929
14,100
Outside of Esposito, who were the other "superstars" Orr played with?
I think those Boston teams are pretty overrated, especially after 1972. I've seen the claim made against Orr that he played with a bunch of hall of famers, as if the team elevated him. Esposito is a legitimate top 50 player, but the other hall of famers are marginal cases that wouldn't be there if not for Orr.
 

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