Rumor: Nylander like Matthews unextended. Nothing to see here.

[PromisedLand]

Marner is going to get at a minimum Panarins contract. At a projects salary cap of 92mm when he is up, it amounts to 13.1mm. The team discount is the differential of Marners skill to Panarin.
That's the way it works.

this is why the window to trade marner for assets being wasted is a bad move but treliving could only do so much i suppose

So now it has come out via Chris Johnston that Willy is taking a hard stance on 10.5m.

This circus has to end,enough is enough,time for this guy to have a new home and we move on from this nonsense.

When Mitch is due if he pulls the same crap move on from him too.

WOW



Trade it is then I suppose

 

[Boxscore]

If Matthew Tkachuk money isn’t good enough for William to stay a Leaf

Yes, it more than should be. But the real issue is this ultimatum shouldn't exist just for Nylander, the same should be said about Matthews and Marner.

If McDavid / MacKinnon (12.5 or 12.6) isn't good enough for Auston to stay a Leaf, he should be nuked just like we feel Nylander should be. Matthews has done nothing to deserve special treatment or rules for him and not for them. He's not above the team -- this is the Toronto Maple Leafs not the Toronto Austons.

In a realistic world, based on comparisons and internal cap situation, these guys should agree to:

Nylander - 8.8 x 8
Marner - 9.5 x 8
Matthews - 12.6 x 8

So, I agree with Nylander. Why should he be willing to take, say, 8.8 just so Marner can demand 11.8 and Matthews 14? This should be a group commitment, and quite honestly it should be lead by Matthews not Nylander.

 

[PromisedLand]

There's a higher chance I have a threesome with Sofia Vergara and Salma Hayek than a chance those guys take a pay cut.

 

[Stephen]

Yes, it more than should be. But the real issue is this ultimatum shouldn't exist just for Nylander, the same should be said about Matthews and Marner.

If McDavid / MacKinnon (12.5 or 12.6) isn't good enough for Auston to stay a Leaf, he should be nuked just like we feel Nylander should be. Matthews has done nothing to deserve special treatment or rules for him and not for them. He's not above the team -- this is the Toronto Maple Leafs not the Toronto Austons.

In a realistic world, based on comparisons and internal cap situation, these guys should agree to:

Nylander - 8.8 x 8
Marner - 9.5 x 8
Matthews - 12.6 x 8

So, I agree with Nylander. Why should he be willing to take, say, 8.8 just so Marner can demand 11.8 and Matthews 14? This should be a group commitment, and quite honestly it should be lead by Matthews not Nylander.

Cale Makar won a Norris Trophy and signed a new deal before the Avs won their cup in 2022. I don’t think there was any talk like I need to make a contract that’s future proofed so when Mackinnon re-signs I’m still paid relatively blah blah blah.

 

[ACC1224]

Exactly. So if Nylander, Marner, Matthews, or anyone truly wants to remain a Leaf, they'll order their agents to make it happen. I'm sick of hearing others say, "it's not the player being greedy, it's the agent." The agent does what the player wants.

The Agent does what they feel is right for the player and once satisfied brings the offer back to the player. Most players have no idea what is happening when all this is going on.
This is why players pay agents, they have the expertise in the negotiation not the player.

 

[kb]

Over the last 3 seasons if we're using points per 60, instead of PPG to compare to their peers


McDavid 4.7p/60 = $2659574 per point per 60 $12.5M
Mackinnon 4p/60 = $3150000 per point per 60 $12.6M
Pastrnak 3.5p/60 $3214285 per point per 60 $11.25M
Meier 2.22p/60 $3963963 per point per 60 $8.8M

Average excluding McDavid, $3442749 per point per 60


If we're paying our guys based on their P/60 directly using their peers as a reference, they should be getting


Marner 3.6p/60 = $12.39M
Nylander 3.2p/60 = $11M
Matthews 3.7p/60 = $$12.7M


Comparatively, if McDavid was paid by the same standard his cap hit should be $16.1M to get the same value per dollar spent

It should be comparing ESP/60 vs ESP/60, and PPP/60 vs PPP/60.

 

[Stephen]

Maybe we should let Nylander negotiate the contracts for Matthews and tell Marner what he is going to make. That way Willy can ensure they’ve taken a discount.

Or sign a $35 million bulk rate on the proviso they can successfully convince John Tavares to waive his NMC.

 

[Antropovsky]

Good for Nylander if true. He unfairly is grouped into the core 4.

Marner is going to get at a minimum Panarins contract. At a projects salary cap of 92mm when he is up, it amounts to 13.1mm. The team discount is the differential of Marners skill to Panarin.
That's the way it works.

Except Panarin is the better player in his prime.

So now it has come out via Chris Johnston that Willy is taking a hard stance on 10.5m.

This circus has to end,enough is enough,time for this guy to have a new home and we move on from this nonsense.

When Mitch is due if he pulls the same crap move on from him too.

Thanks to Dubas we can't even trade Marner and we have limitation for Nylander too.

 

[I am Canadian]

I agree that the Reaves contract was excessive in term (definitely by at least a year) but not so much through the AAV. I'd approximate that Treliving might have overpaid the trio by about 1M collectively, an amount which is neither wonderful nor atrocious.

Nylander was overpaid between 0.5M - 1M at the time [Comparables Pastranak, Ehlers]
Marner was overpaid between 1.5-2M at the time [Comparable Rantanen]
Matthews I have no idea.

 

[Notsince67]

this is why the window to trade marner for assets being wasted is a bad move but treliving could only do so much i suppose



WOW



Trade it is then I suppose

Business side of hockey kind of sucks. Truth is I would be milking it as well. It is a short career and everyone needs to do what they need to do. That includes GM's whose careers can be even shorter if they can't find a way to manage the cap properly.
Willy needs to be paid more. That much is clear but Forsberg is a pretty close comparable. With the cap increase, it's probably just north of 9MM.
He already has FU money as does Matthews and Marner. 10.5 is a lot right now so I wwould either try to get a fair trade or let him play out his contract barring no decent deal. They can decide what to offer him next year which would be full market value and likely below 10.5

 

[Boxscore]

Cale Makar won a Norris Trophy and signed a new deal before the Avs won their cup in 2022. I don’t think there was any talk like I need to make a contract that’s future proofed so when Mackinnon re-signs I’m still paid relatively blah blah blah.

I agree. But MacKinnon took less in his previous deal and had come out publicly and said this. Everyone knew what MacKinnon and the Avs were all about. Their culture was already well-established. Their leaders established it.

And for anyone saying, "MacKinnon didn't take less", I call BS. He just helped lead the Avs to a Cup, is their top forward, and he could have easily leveraged them for 14-15 million a year x 5 years. The fact that he signed for 8 years and only took 700k more than Matthews (on a deal that Matthews signed 4 years ago) tells you everything you need to know about what MacKinnon was willing to do for the sake of his team.

The Agent does what they feel is right for the player and once satisfied brings the offer back to the player. Most players have no idea what is happening when all this is going on.
This is why players pay agents, they have the expertise in the negotiation not the player.

Right, players are complete morons when it's convenient. If you and I can look up team cap space and contracts within 30 seconds, I'm sure Nylander, Marner, and Matthews can too lol.

Could you imagine, with a straight face, a player like Matthews saying, "I had no clue my 14.5 million contract is the reason we couldn't keep Willie."

 

[Notsince67]

Nylander was overpaid between 0.5M - 1M at the time [Comparables Pastranak, Ehlers]
Marner was overpaid between 1.5-2M at the time [Comparable Rantanen]
Matthews I have no idea.

Nylander was paid to sit for 40% of the first season. Truing up a contract for that brings the cantract value to 7.5mm (only asked to play for 5.6yrs...not 6)
Marner was overpaid about .8mm based on the closest comparable, Kane.

 

[PromisedLand]

I may be in the minority here, but I completely agree with where Willy and his camp stand on this situation. Why the hell should he take less if they just turn around an hand the bag to Auston. Taking less only makes sense when everyone takes less. Sidney Crosby was quoted with that very same sentiment just a couple years back.

Willy has earned his right to play hard ball IMO. He's shown up almost every year ready to elevate his game in the same capacity as Mitch and Auston. The only difference is that he actually shows up with consistency in April/May where Mitch and Auston are nowhere to be seen.

If I am Will I would be doing the exact same thing. Not because I'd need the extra couple million, but out of principle. I would never sacrifice my earnings for 1 or 2 players to get a raise in place of my own. If they all agreed to do so, to improve the teams chances of winning long term, then I would gladly jump on board. I don't think Willy is unreasonable TBH. In fact, I actually get the suspicion he is the most reasonable of the bunch. The bunch being the core 4.

Ultimately, if Auston were to sign below market value, I am almost certain Willy would do the same. I don't think the same could be said the other way around. Wherein, I don't think if Willy were to sign for less it would do anything to positively impact Auston's negotiations in our favour.

I really hope we can get something done with Willy, but I agree completely with where he is at and I don't blame him 1 bit

Yup on the spittin chicklets interview.

In the same interview he stated how important it is for him to keep up with his skating as a center as teams now a days pinch hard and if centers don't help out the D-men are absolutely toast.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

1st round material, generational

 

[Stephen]

Let’s get something straight.

Nylander wouldn’t be taking less on a $9.0 million amount Toronto is probably willing to concede on. He would be paid somewhere between Filip Forsberg and Mikko Rantanen/Matthew Tkachuk. Aka fairly. As that dollar amount inches closer to $9.5 million he would simply be paid well compared to better, more accomplished wingers with an eye towards an increasing cap.

He just wouldn’t be paid an amount that compensated him for a lower contract on his second deal or a signature MLSE overpayment.

 

[PromisedLand]

This is 1 million % correct. I've said it for 2 weeks now and I'll say it again -- this offseason, and the Leafs success moving forward, all hinges on Matthews and his contract demands. Nylander coming out and publicly stating what we all know to be the reality should have been done by Matthews last week.

During the last round of contracts Nylander ended up taking a bath because he couldn't imagine Marner and Matthews getting the money they did. This time around he's not leaving good money on the table just so the Leafs can take it out of his pocket and hand it to Matthews and Marner once again.

Matthews should be the leader of this team and should reset the culture by openly committing to 12.5 x 8. This will set the bar for Nylander, and ultimately Marner, to take less on their deals so the team can remain together while continuing to add nice pieces like Bertuzzi and Domi.

The fact that Matthews is lurking in the background, waiting for the debris fallout, so he can determine every last dollar that's available for him to gobble up, disgusts me to no end. And if we're being honest, we all know that's exactly what he's doing.

This entire ship is being steered by Matthews and I have the worst feeling his greed is going to sink it. He should have been out there verbally committing to the team long-term to put this all to bed. I don't blame Nylander one bit for not wanting to be the only player who sacrifices for this team, while players like Matthews and Marner get everything they want then vanish in the playoffs time and time again.

I wonder what all of this might do to any dressing room dynamic (if at all that is)

 

[rojac]

I think if you're really going to compare players using pts. per 60, the points and the minutes need to be broken down into Even Strength, Power Play, and Penalty Kill. Because most of Marner's extra minutes come on the PK, wherer there is less of a chance of scoring points, any kind of pts. per 60 measure that includes those minutes seems slightly unfair to Marner.

And for those arguing that Nylander puts up a lot of his points playing on the second line, how much of the presumed lower quality of teammates is canceled out by the opposition likely concentrating more defense on line 1?

I may be completely wrong about this, but I think these are some things to think about when comparing players.

 

[socko]

Good for Nylander if true. He unfairly is grouped into the core 4.
Except Panarin is the better player in his prime.
Thanks to Dubas we can't even trade Marner and we have limitation for Nylander too.

Panarin also left his team, sold himself to the highest bidder, and picked the richest team in the sport. If you want to go there too, enjoy;.

 

[Mess]

Chris Johnston reported on The Chris Johnston Show that the Toronto Maple Leafs and forward William Nylander remain far apart in extension talks. Johnston said that he believes that the 27-year-old is looking for a contract that pays him over $10MM annually while the Maple Leafs offer is in the range of $8MM-$9MM per season.

Nylander’s ask is reasonable given that he has put up back-to-back 80+ point seasons and is a pending unrestricted free agent. The trouble for the Leafs will be managing a potential Nylander extension with the cap hits of Mitch Marner, John Tavares, and whatever number Auston Matthews signs for. Couple that with the Morgan Rielly extension and a salary cap that hasn’t budged much in recent seasons, and it could create a very top-heavy team in Toronto going forward.

Nylander had a career year last season putting up 40 goals and 47 assists in 82 games and has silenced critics in recent years who doubted his ability to score in the postseason. Nylander has been a point a game player in both the regular season and the playoffs the past few years and would generate a ton of interest if his name were to be floated in the trade market.

 

[Boxscore]

Let’s get something straight.

Nylander wouldn’t be taking less on a $9.0 million amount Toronto is probably willing to concede on. He would be paid somewhere between Filip Forsberg and Mikko Rantanen/Matthew Tkachuk. Aka fairly.

Agreed. And I'd argue that 9 mil for Nylander is a hair generous. He should be 8.5 (or 8.8 max) on an 8-year commitment.

But I'm a firm believer that Nylander (the person) also realizes that Marner and Matthews aren't that much better than him to deserve the blank checks they've received in the past. And he doesn't want to be the only member of the core who gets less once again just to see Marner and Matthews strike gold and selfishly leave nothing on the table.

I agree with you 100% about Nylander's worth within our internal cap system. I also agree with Nylander's sentiment that he shouldn't be the only core player who doesn't milk the Leafs for everything he can.

My biggest issue is we all should be calling out Matthews the way we are Nylander. They all need to take less to stay here. All of them. Not just Nylander while we make excuses for Matthews and Marner.

 

[ULF_55]

For sure. To me there's a PR battle going on. The Leafs have the upper hand because they announced quickly that the 2 parties are far apart. Nylander's agent is letting it be known that Nylander is a nice guy and willing to take less as long as m the other core pieces take less. Nylander is a good player, but he's not a generational talent. He certainly doesn't take draws, and match-up like Matthews does.

Leafs don't have a generational player, so he isn't alone.

 

[Marshy]

I agree with you 100% about Nylander's worth within our internal cap system. I also agree with Nylander's sentiment that he shouldn't be the only core player who doesn't milk the Leafs for everything he can.

Then go and get paid elsewhere. It's not complicated. You're on a team that has players better than you in a cap system. Go to a team where you're the best player. Simple.

 

[nuck]

I may be in the minority here, but I completely agree with where Willy and his camp stand on this situation. Why the hell should he take less if they just turn around an hand the bag to Auston. Taking less only makes sense when everyone takes less. Sidney Crosby was quoted with that very same sentiment just a couple years back.

Willy has earned his right to play hard ball IMO. He's shown up almost every year ready to elevate his game in the same capacity as Mitch and Auston. The only difference is that he actually shows up with consistency in April/May where Mitch and Auston are nowhere to be seen.

If I am Will I would be doing the exact same thing. Not because I'd need the extra couple million, but out of principle. I would never sacrifice my earnings for 1 or 2 players to get a raise in place of my own. If they all agreed to do so, to improve the teams chances of winning long term, then I would gladly jump on board. I don't think Willy is unreasonable TBH. In fact, I actually get the suspicion he is the most reasonable of the bunch. The bunch being the core 4.

Ultimately, if Auston were to sign below market value, I am almost certain Willy would do the same. I don't think the same could be said the other way around. Wherein, I don't think if Willy were to sign for less it would do anything to positively impact Auston's negotiations in our favour.

I really hope we can get something done with Willy, but I agree completely with where he is at and I don't blame him 1 bit

But lets back to what is below market value and stop trying to evaluate based on Willie sometimes being less mediocre in the playoffs than the other two. If he's better than Point or Ranta or Tkachuk or Kaprizov then he should get paid more than them. But he isn't and none of them make more than $9.5M per. So asking Willie to sign for between $8.8 and $9.5 isn't asking a favor of him. $10M+ is setting the market again and not by a couple hundred K. If he legit thinks he is a $10.5M player because of what Mitch and AM get paid then he really needs to go to a team with no all stars on it so he isn't looking up at anyone. Its time.

 

[rojac]

If there is any truth to the RUMOR of a 10.5 ask from Nylander, I wonder if his camp is asking that high because Treliving is doing what many on this board want him to do, which is to lowball Nylander.

 

[Boxscore]

Then go and get paid elsewhere. It's not complicated. You're on a team that has players better than you in a cap system. Go to a team where you're the best player. Simple.

I don't disagree with you, as long as you hold firm on this sentiment when it comes to Marner and Matthews. NONE OF THEM should be milking the Leafs for everything they can. Nylander isn't the only guilty party here. But, I agree, that the line needs to be drawn... NOW. And if Nylander is the first casualty so be it. But I want Treliving to stick to his guns with Matthews next. If he starts his crap again... GONE. Next up, Marner.

And I don't want to hear, "then we won't win anything!" because we've only won ONE round in 7 years with these guys being overpaid. If we're saying enough is enough, fine, I'm on board. But it better not end with Willie.