Speculation: Nylander Discussion - Part IV

[Boxscore]

Shanahan's comments are laughable when you look at his own history as a player. When he was Nylander's age he signed an offer sheet that increased his salary by 773%.

Right. And he was using non-cap Detroit as the example lol.

He certainly didn't want to refer to Tampa, because the argument doesn't hold up after he just spent 11 mil a pop on JT.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Cap or no cap, there is still a thing teams had called a budget. Even the rich teams had one.

 

[Boxscore]

Cap or no cap, there is still a thing teams had called a budget. Even the rich teams had one.

True, but Detroit's was as high as any team in the league, including the Rangers and Flyers at the time.

The problem that I had with Shanahan's comments is when he said (and I'm paraphrasing), "We would like our players to take a little bit less so we can add to the team." If I'm Nylander, I'm like, "So, I need to take less so you can pay Tavares 11 mil a pop?" Look, I think Nylander is happy as heck that Tavares is on the team, but he still wants what he's worth. You can't just pay some players top dollar and expect others to give discounts without those players feeling slighted. It's human nature. In order for a team to work like that, it needs to be "all or nothing" like Tampa. ALL the megastars took a lot less. Tavares didn't take less. So the Leafs just set the precedent. Does anyone think Matthews is going to take less? lol. Umm, no way.

 

[DanM]

True, but Detroit's was as high as any team in the league, including the Rangers and Flyers at the time.

The problem that I had with Shanahan's comments is when he said (and I'm paraphrasing), "We would like our players to take a little bit less so we can add to the team." If I'm Nylander, I'm like, "So, I need to take less so you can pay Tavares 11 mil a pop?" Look, I think Nylander is happy as heck that Tavares is on the team, but he still wants what he's worth. You can't just pay some players top dollar and expect others to give discounts without those players feeling slighted. It's human nature. In order for a team to work like that, it needs to be "all or nothing" like Tampa. ALL the megastars took a lot less. Tavares didn't take less. So the Leafs just set the precedent. Does anyone think Matthews is going to take less? lol. Umm, no way.

You are not wrong

But at the same time, Willy is not worth more than 6.75m max on a 8 year deal. Regardless of what we pay other guys, that's his worth right now.

 

[YakDavid]

You are not wrong

But at the same time, Willy is not worth more than 6.75m max on a 8 year deal. Regardless of what we pay other guys, that's his worth right now.

I kinda agree on the dollar amount at the time if you were to value him now. With a 8 year contract as a team you hope to overpay a bit a the start and then hope that it turns in to below market value. Most NHL players coming off of ELC the 8 year contracts will have their prime years. They would like to be paid for what they are worth. So at the beginning of the contract they know they are overpaid for what they produce but the end they hope to be underpaid and to be resigned at a higher value.

 

[Boxscore]

You are not wrong

But at the same time, Willy is not worth more than 6.75m max on a 8 year deal. Regardless of what we pay other guys, that's his worth right now.

I happen to agree with you personally, that Nylander is (in my eyes) worth 6.75 a pop. To me, that seems fair. But I don't think 8 years under 7 is fair. I look at what the Oilers signed Draisaitl to and, even though I do not think Nylander is worth 8 mil a pop today, I don't think he's that far away from Draisaitl, considering he'll be attached to Matthews' hip for the duration. Matthews and Nylander are just scratching the surface, and I think Nylander knows this. I also think he feels like the Leafs are trying to "get him cheaper" so they can prioritize Marner and Matthews. And this is right after prioritizing Tavares in the summer.

So, while I agree with you in terms of Willy's value, I can see 5-6 years at 6.75 being fair... not 8 really. But it's not unreasonable.

 

[The Burdened]

just trade him to Carolina for a dman and be done with it

 

[Icebreakers]

Nylander will never make above 7 on the leafs. Not now and not 8 years from now (adjusted for the cap % 8 years from now)

 

[Fenrirson]

Nylander, while good, is worth 6.5ish.

He had 2 60 point seasons. We're not talking about Gretz here... or is hockey worth over a million dollars per 10 points now?

 

[Icebreakers]

Nylander, while good, is worth 6.5ish.

He had 2 60 point seasons. We're not talking about Gretz here.

As a 20 and 21 year old. Potential is factored in too. Otherwise draisatl and Eichel wouldn't have scratched their AVVs.

 

[Fenrirson]

As a 20 and 21 year old. Potential is factored in too. Otherwise draisatl and Eichel wouldn't have scratched their AVVs.

Neither of those players have been worth their contracts. Maybe they will in the future, but so far those are both terrible contracts.

If I'm a leafs fan, I'm starting to get behind trading this kid. The attitude problems he was rumored to have at the combine are becoming evident.

In fairness, I blame his agent.

 

[DanM]

I happen to agree with you personally, that Nylander is (in my eyes) worth 6.75 a pop. To me, that seems fair. But I don't think 8 years under 7 is fair. I look at what the Oilers signed Draisaitl to and, even though I do not think Nylander is worth 8 mil a pop today, I don't think he's that far away from Draisaitl, considering he'll be attached to Matthews' hip for the duration. Matthews and Nylander are just scratching the surface, and I think Nylander knows this. I also think he feels like the Leafs are trying to "get him cheaper" so they can prioritize Marner and Matthews. And this is right after prioritizing Tavares in the summer.

So, while I agree with you in terms of Willy's value, I can see 5-6 years at 6.75 being fair... not 8 really. But it's not unreasonable.

Well said. I also agree, I think I was looking at more the now, and 8 years for just over 7 wouldn't be terrible at all, pretty reasonable.

 

[DanM]

I kinda agree on the dollar amount at the time if you were to value him now. With a 8 year contract as a team you hope to overpay a bit a the start and then hope that it turns in to below market value. Most NHL players coming off of ELC the 8 year contracts will have their prime years. They would like to be paid for what they are worth. So at the beginning of the contract they know they are overpaid for what they produce but the end they hope to be underpaid and to be resigned at a higher value.

True and well said

As I was saying to another poster, even going a little of 7M per on a 8 year deal would be reasonable. I think we could do that, and keep everything in order. However, if he want's 8 right now, he will be moved for sure.

Also, maybe he is worth 8 per down the road, I just don't see a situation where this works well for us as a team.

 

[A1LeafNation]

True, but Detroit's was as high as any team in the league, including the Rangers and Flyers at the time.

The problem that I had with Shanahan's comments is when he said (and I'm paraphrasing), "We would like our players to take a little bit less so we can add to the team." If I'm Nylander, I'm like, "So, I need to take less so you can pay Tavares 11 mil a pop?" Look, I think Nylander is happy as heck that Tavares is on the team, but he still wants what he's worth. You can't just pay some players top dollar and expect others to give discounts without those players feeling slighted. It's human nature. In order for a team to work like that, it needs to be "all or nothing" like Tampa. ALL the megastars took a lot less. Tavares didn't take less. So the Leafs just set the precedent. Does anyone think Matthews is going to take less? lol. Umm, no way.

I specifically remember Joseph taking 6M in Detroit when he was offered 8M in Toronto but left for a chance at the cup pre-cap.

So I dont think Shanny is wrong here. Detroit had a budget and it looks like players took less to get a good team to contend for the cup.

 

[Contenderorpretender]

Kucherov is better and younger than Tavares. Doesn't matter the position. I'm not saying Tavares isn't "worth" top money, I'm just saying that it's hard to guilt trip your inner core to take less when you just went on the open market and paid Tavares top dollar. 11 mil is no discount - doesn't matter that the Sharks were desperate and stupid enough to pay Tavares more than McDavid lol. If Tavares truly wanted to give the Leafs a "discount" he would have did what Kucherov, Stamkos and Hedman did. He did not. This cannot be spun.



Forget state taxes. It's a benefit of playing in Florida. Guess what - there's a benefit to playing in Toronto too... you get to play in front of, perhaps, the most passionate and educated hockey fans on the planet, in the greatest hockey market on earth. For some people, you can't put a price tag on that. Supposedly, Tavares was one of those people. "I'm coming home...", remember all that good stuff?

This comes down to cap money and flexibility to keep the "team" in tact under the cap. Hedman, Stamkos, Kucherov ALL took less (probably by 1.5 to 2 mil each, in fact) to keep the team together. That 6 mil allows them to keep a player like Point when needed.

If Tavares took 9.5 like Kucherov, I am convinced the Leafs could then convince Nylander to take a mil less, and the same with Marner and Matthews. But he didn't. 11 mil is 1.5 less than Connor-freaking-McDavid. Again, because the Sharks were insane doesn't mean the rest of the league needs to be.

Sure I understand your point. However, and I may be wrong. But wasn't kuch coming off an rfa contract? If so that also makes a huge difference.

 

[Halla]

leafs can afford to wait. can willy?

If I'm Dubas I'm waiting until Nov 30th if the reports are true he is looking for draisaitl money

his comparables have all come in at 6-6.67 ish (Ehlers,forsberg,pastrnak)
he is gonna make more than Barkov,Hall,Mackinnon,Schiefele,Marchand and other guys that are top 20 or so in the league.


Just take 6.75 willy.

 

[WesMcCauley]

I happen to agree with you personally, that Nylander is (in my eyes) worth 6.75 a pop. To me, that seems fair. But I don't think 8 years under 7 is fair. I look at what the Oilers signed Draisaitl to and, even though I do not think Nylander is worth 8 mil a pop today, I don't think he's that far away from Draisaitl, considering he'll be attached to Matthews' hip for the duration. Matthews and Nylander are just scratching the surface, and I think Nylander knows this. I also think he feels like the Leafs are trying to "get him cheaper" so they can prioritize Marner and Matthews. And this is right after prioritizing Tavares in the summer.

So, while I agree with you in terms of Willy's value, I can see 5-6 years at 6.75 being fair... not 8 really. But it's not unreasonable.

The Drai comparison people are using makes no sense to me at all. Drai has produced much better numbers than Nylander. He also scored 16 points in 13 playoff games on a line without McJesus so its not like he is producing because of him. So far in their careers Drai is closer to a player like Eichel than Nylander is to Drai imo.

Leafs and Nylander should just stop with the stupidity and sign Nylander to 6,5*6 years and get on with it... Nylander gets paid fair money for what he has done so far, keeps the cap hit lower for Toronto because its only 6 years and Nylander is free to try to get all the money he wants as an ufa in 6 years if thats important to him.

 

[thadd]

Nylander, while good, is worth 6.5ish.

He had 2 60 point seasons. We're not talking about Gretz here... or is hockey worth over a million dollars per 10 points now?

As dumb as it sounds, yeah.
40 points can easily get you 5 million now regardless of the position you play.

 

[Broadslayer]

Come on Willy! Take the hometown discount, give up 10 million+ while making yourself tradable for a city you’re not even from, so that your teammates can get a way bigger pot than you!

JT did it and is now living his childhood dream! You can too and all it’ll cost is half what he makes and a bit of uncertainty that you won’t go to a crap city for the D we desperately need!

Time for Willy to do the right thing. Selfish selfish guy.

 

[Fenrirson]

As dumb as it sounds, yeah.
40 points can easily get you 5 million now regardless of the position you play.

Thank Chia lol

 

[Spawn]

I specifically remember Joseph taking 6M in Detroit when he was offered 8M in Toronto but left for a chance at the cup pre-cap.

So I dont think Shanny is wrong here. Detroit had a budget and it looks like players took less to get a good team to contend for the cup.

It was the other way around. Joseph went from earning $6.5M in Toronto to being the highest paid goalie in the world when he went to Detroit for $8M per.

Curtis Joseph - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Shanahan is full of shit lol. Red Wings were a powerhouse that had a budget only a handful of other teams could compete with. They were spending as much back then as teams are now.

 

[WesMcCauley]

leafs can afford to wait. can willy?

If I'm Dubas I'm waiting until Nov 30th if the reports are true he is looking for draisaitl money

his comparables have all come in at 6-6.67 ish (Ehlers,forsberg,pastrnak)
he is gonna make more than Barkov,Hall,Mackinnon,Schiefele,Marchand and other guys that are top 20 or so in the league.


Just take 6.75 willy.

For 6 years he should. If he signs for 7 or 8 years it makes no sense for Nylander to sign for under 7 million.

 

[Lunatik]

So, has Nylander succumbed and taken less money due to the pleas of a man who once signed an offer sheet to maximize his value ?

 

[Leaf Fans]

So, has Nylander succumbed and taken less money due to the pleas of a man who once signed an offer sheet to maximize his value ?

Yes, but the signing hasn't been announced yet. Maybe a day or week or month I am not sure when the signing will be announced. Whatever the number, that is the discount.

 

[Boxscore]

Sure I understand your point. However, and I may be wrong. But wasn't kuch coming off an rfa contract? If so that also makes a huge difference.

No... he was heading into his UFA year just like Tavares last year and Karlsson this year. But, instead of threatening the Lighting that he's content with playing the market, or saying, "I want Tavares money"... he gave Tampa a legit discount and signed for 9.5 a pop. Kucherov is one of the few players who can bag 100 points any given year. He's 26 years old. What do you think he would get on the open market next summer? 12? 12.5?

This is just my opinion, but players like Kucherov, Stamkos and Hedman put their money where their mouth is. They all legit look a lot less to keep the team in tact. My point about Tavares is that he knew damn well the Leafs were an up and coming club with three high-profile players to sign and, instead of pulling a "Kucherov", he hit jackpot. It doesn't make him a bad person, or wrong in any way, but it does have a trickle down effect and we're seeing it now.