Nylander contract discussion - New Poll

[ACC1224]

I think Willy has done a better job making some defensive plays this year but you are correct.

He is not anywhere close to Marner in his own end.

I will be happy if Willy can rwach 40 goals and somewhere between 85-95 points.

Yeah, elite defensive players are hard for some to recognize.
He's been great in that regard, points will come no doubt. He and Nylander will both be around 100, give or take.

 

[Notsince67]

I think Willy has done a better job making some defensive plays this year but you are correct.

He is not anywhere close to Marner in his own end.

I will be happy if Willy can rwach 40 goals and somewhere between 85-95 points.

And that is the hope we all have. Trying to turn him into something he isnt is a waste of time. He isn't unique in this. There are all kinds of stars in the league who aren't great defensively either by skill or desire. It doesn't matter in the end. Defensive forward specialists also exist in the league. The trick is to get them playing in a way that maximizes their contributions.

 

[Gary Nylund]

And that is the hope we all have. Trying to turn him into something he isnt is a waste of time. He isn't unique in this. There are all kinds of stars in the league who aren't great defensively either by skill or desire. It doesn't matter in the end. Defensive forward specialists also exist in the league. The trick is to get them playing in a way that maximizes their contributions.

Well said, I couldn't agree more.

 

[Mess]

There is a $4 mil mil difference in AAV & cap hit between Willy Nylander and Mitch Marner but there is CLEARLY not a $4 mil difference in value and impact to the Leafs team.

If you give WIlly a +$2 mil raise to $9.0 mil AAV that moves them to $2 mil difference and closer to value but still a problem with the Marner contract now and in the future. IMO

 

[Canada4Gold]

Wasn't this the Nylander contract thread? We get a bunch of off topic useless Marner comparing and so the solution is to change the thread topic?

What should we do if we want to talk Nylander contract then? Start a new thread?

 

[ACC1224]

Wasn't this the Nylander contract thread? We get a bunch of off topic useless Marner comparing and so the solution is to change the thread topic?

What should we do if we want to talk Nylander contract then? Start a new thread?

It was but the usual's turned it into another off topic Marner whine fest so the title was changed so people would know what to expect.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Keep both?

It could be done, even next year;

I demoted Reaves for a 200k hit and I am definitely open to different 4th line wingers, Boyd is there as insurance at centere too.

I'd be open to moving Liljegren if a high end age appropriate RD came up too.

Rifai is more a placeholder for a cheap #7 D

This all falls apart if Woll is not doing well down the line.

 

[Mess]

Wasn't this the Nylander contract thread? We get a bunch of off topic useless Marner comparing and so the solution is to change the thread topic?

What should we do if we want to talk Nylander contract then? Start a new thread?

Don't you believe the Marner contract should be a comparable for Nylander both internally as a Leaf and externally and a PPG winger for his agent to use for Willy's next deal?

I'd speculate that Lewis Gross Nylander's player agent is using the current Marner contract as a comparable for his clients next deal, perhaps even the most relevant one.

 

[Byron Bitz]

Don't you believe the Marner contract should be a comparable for Nylander both internally as a Leaf and externally and a PPG winger for his agent to use for Willy's next deal?

I'd speculate that Lewis Gross Nylander's player agent is using the current Marner contract as a comparable for his clients next deal, perhaps even the most relevant one.

Bob McKenzie said his sources told him that agents around the league very often try to use Marner as a comparable but GM’s view it as an “outlier” contract and not a viable comparable.

 

[ACC1224]

Bob McKenzie said his sources told him that agents around the league very often try to use Marner as a comparable but GM’s view it as an “outlier” contract and not a viable comparable.

Agents love Dubas

 

[supermann_98]

Wasn't this the Nylander contract thread? We get a bunch of off topic useless Marner comparing and so the solution is to change the thread topic?

What should we do if we want to talk Nylander contract then? Start a new thread?

Can't really discuss one without the other. Would you rather have Willy signed for 8 years at $9.5m-$10m or would you want to pay Mitch in the neighborhood of $13m for 6-7 years?

For me it's sign Willy and lets see what happens when Marner is eligible for an extension. In my mind he was paid $10.9m for what he may potentially do, and okay he maybe met his potential, so why give him a raise? If he doesn't accept $11m for the good of the team I'll take that $11m and go #1 defenseman shopping

 

[Canada4Gold]

Can't really discuss one without the other. Would you rather have Willy signed for 8 years at $9.5m-$10m or would you want to pay Mitch in the neighborhood of $13m for 6-7 years?

For me it's sign Willy and lets see what happens when Marner is eligible for an extension. In my mind he was paid $10.9m for what he may potentially do, and okay he maybe met his potential, so why give him a raise? If he doesn't accept $11m for the good of the team I'll take that $11m and go #1 defenseman shopping

It's for sure fair to bring up Marner when talking about a Nylander contract but relate it to the cap, how to keep both, how their pay relates, etc. The pages of Marner/Nylander bickering about playoff performance for the last day haven't really mentioned money at all. Just pointless bickering about recent playoff performance wanting to be right about their player or something. Should we have some pointless Kadri Bozak conversations as well? The solution to that certainly shouldn't be changing the topic of the thread 1500 posts into it. That logic seems crazy to me, but if there isn't another way to stop it then whatever I guess.

 

[Mess]

Bob McKenzie said his sources told him that agents around the league very often try to use Marner as a comparable but GM’s view it as an “outlier” contract and not a viable comparable.

No question that is 100% factual that real NHL GM's will not be held accountable for the actions of incompetence past when it comes to a contract that was described as "sent shock waves through the NHL" .

All the other NHL teams can claim the Leafs internal pay-scale is an anomaly established by an unqualified GM that screwed the Leafs but will not force their hand.

However the one team that is held accountable to these contracts are fellow LEAF players as they're teammates which make the Nylander contract so hard to get done at NHL comparables (like all other teams) and not have the Marner "outlier" impact the next Nylander contract.

How can Treliving make the case that a fellow teammates contract is not a valid discussion point in negotiating, even if he didn't create this mess?

 

[notbias]

No question that is 100% factual that real NHL GM's will not be held accountable for the actions of incompetence past when it comes to a contract that was described as "sent shock waves through the NHL" .

All the other NHL teams can claim the Leafs internal pay-scale is an anomaly established by an unqualified GM that screwed the Leafs but will not force their hand.

However the one team that is held accountable to these contracts are fellow LEAF players as they're teammates which make the Nylander contract so hard to get done at NHL comparables (like all other teams) and not have the Marner "outlier" impact the next Nylander contract.

How can Treliving make the case that a fellow teammates contract is not a valid discussion point in negotiating, even if he didn't create this mess?

real NHL GMs... you praise Treliving... Treliving signed Huberdeau... please make it make sense.

Also, Huberdeau, Panarin, Benn, and Pastrnak all got more or similar (cap hit % is all that matters)

 

[WTFMAN99]

real NHL GMs... you praise Treliving... Treliving signed Huberdeau... please make it make sense.

Huberdeau

204 GP 254 pts = 1.24 PT/game

Marner

186GP 231 pts = 1.24 pt/game

Matthews

195GP 252 pts = 1.29 pt/game

Why wouldn't Huberdeau have been worth the contract he signed at the time?

 

[notbias]

View attachment 760383
Huberdeau
View attachment 760381
204 GP 254 pts = 1.24 PT/game

Marner
View attachment 760384
186GP 231 pts = 1.24 pt/game

Matthews
View attachment 760385
195GP 252 pts = 1.29 pt/game

Why wouldn't Huberdeau have been worth the contract he signed at the time?

I am fine with his contract, except he is clearly a liability defensively and has been terrible since signing, so bad player evaluation.

It is also signing a player who is on the way out to that contract, not a player who is still growing.

But I am referring to him saying the Marner contract is something no real GM would sign, but he also praises Trelivng... It is just a Mess... like usual

 

[WTFMAN99]

I am fine wit his contract, except he is clearly a liability defensively and is terrible since signing, so bad player evaluation.

But I am referring to him saying the Marner contract is something no real GM would sign, but he also praises Trelivng... It is just a Mess... like usual

Yes but you'd have needed a crystal ball to know he wouldn't have worked out after what he had done in Florida. There is no bad player evaluation at all in that instance, it wasn't a 1 off career year, going further back like 5 years, I think Huberdeau actually outproduces both Matthews and Marner, there was a solid body of work to go off of.

Huberdeau was a pending UFA going into the season and Treliving worked to extend both Weegar and Huberdeau to have something to show for Tkachuk. Everyone praised the work Treliving did at the time because he clearly had instructions to be competitive versus rebuild in the return and turned it into another top line winger and at worst, top 4 RD.

The fact executives are saying Marner's contract is an outlier and won't accept it as a comp in player negotiations kind of says it all. I don't know how we go much higher on Marner's next contract. 60 goal scorer Pastrnak was well aware the cap was going up and signed for 8 years at 11.25M and Marner's been making 10.9Mish for quite some time, hard to move much higher.

 

[34]

If Toronto has to choose one of them, you take Nylander 100%.

Trade Marner for a top pairing D man if possible.

 

[Byron Bitz]

Agents love Dubas

Unfortunately for us that is true https://www.forbes.com/sites/jordan...poll-maple-leafs-deemed-most-generous-gm/amp/

 

[nuck]

Don't you believe the Marner contract should be a comparable for Nylander both internally as a Leaf and externally and a PPG winger for his agent to use for Willy's next deal?

I'd speculate that Lewis Gross Nylander's player agent is using the current Marner contract as a comparable for his clients next deal, perhaps even the most relevant one.

Over the last 3 years Mitch has outscored Willie by 50 points in fewer games, and whether you think MM is a defensive Selke type stud or not, he is for sure a better 200ft player. Mitch scored 94 points in the last year of his ELC in a lower scoring league and Willie hasn't hit 90 yet. Willie has had a 40 goal season but Mitch has scored 35 which is better than Willies second best year so even though WN is acknowledged as the better shooter they are not in different time zones as scorers. Marner has been a 1st team Allstar twice. Value against contract is one thing but there just aren't enough similarities to argue for Marner money. Tkachuk, Kaprizov and Ranta are all better wingers than Willie and they don't make over $9.5M.

I believe Gross would try to throw the Marner deal out there as somehow relevant Mitch's paycheque but that won't get any traction. Different GM, and the club frankly can't afford to throw money around now like Dubas did then as he was expecting there to be another $8-$10M in growth by now. Now Willie and his agent don't have to be realistic or reasonable so his true comps might not matter to him and given that Shanny and Tre seem committed to running it back until it finally works, I could see them exceeding any true comps to keep him around. I will pick something around $9.8M maybe. Overpaying by $800k doesn't seem like much but it is really committing to the idea they will never need or get a $9M defenseman until Matty is gone.

 

[Menzinger]

I just really hope they get a contract done while the team is in Sweden. No better way to announce it and sign it in his home country to me. He's been so f***ing good for awhile and I hope he gets his wish to stick around.

Watching him walk away for free from this team would be pretty devastating.

It really would be one of the better "feel good" moments the team could get it wrapped up during that trip

I'm fairly optimistic that they get it settled sooner than later..I also think folks are running a bit wild with the idea that his current play being the only factor that sets his next aav, which it won't.

Though admittedly it's looking like it wouldn't have been the worst idea to get the deal done before the season has started (in retrospect)

 

[notbias]

Unfortunately for us that is true NHL Agent Poll: Maple Leafs’ Kyle Dubas Deemed Most Generous GM

This was before Brad gave out those terrible contracts... maybe it has changed.

Also not good for us.

 

[Dekes For Days]

There is a $4 mil mil difference in AAV & cap hit between Willy Nylander and Mitch Marner but there is CLEARLY not a $4 mil difference in value and impact to the Leafs team.

There has absolutely been a justified 3.9m cap hit difference between Marner and Nylander over their 2nd contracts.

Thrrough their respective contracts to date...
Nylander has averaged out to a 73 point pace player that is pretty much all offense.
Marner has averaged out to a 101 point pace player that is elite defensively and elite on the PK.

 

[Gallagbi]

Why wouldn't Huberdeau have been worth the contract he signed at the time?

The simple answer is you pay forward, not retro. They signed him early on a team he hasnt found a fit with for his 30s. I really hope Tre was forced to sign that deal because its the worst I can think of in the league

 

[Dekes For Days]

This was before Brad gave out those terrible contracts... maybe it has changed.

It was never true to begin with. The original question was intentionally vague enough as it was, but the title in that article is flat out rewriting the question to make it look worse. It was the GM that agents most wanted to deal with, not where they'd make the most money or get most overpaid or the most "generous GM".

Isn't it weird how we haven't had an agent poll since? Literally only ever took place after the biggest market signed some of the best young players in modern history to their new, big, highly publicized contracts. And then they asked a small handful of nobodies who have probably never dealt with a non-league minimum contract and acted like it represented the larger agent community.

A grand total of 5 people (who have likely never negotiated with Dubas) said Dubas. Most respondents said somebody else. But it created a narrative that they could sell.