Nylander contract discussion - New Poll

[notDatsyuk]

Surely there is a dance partner out there strong on d but lacking up front. This isn't out of the realm of possibilities. Second. Even trading Willie for picks is SOMETHING. Letting a talent like him walk for nothing is the dumbest shit you can do long term or immediate for the leafs.

Letting him walk is dumb, and so is trading him for picks. Our window will be opening after next season, and the picks won't be ready to contribute until after the Matthews window is closing.

 

[notDatsyuk]

If you get a d-man for him, the chances of the d-man asking for 11 million a year are very slim. Come on man. Stop being so thick headed


You are walking away from a forward whom you can't win with. Who is requesting to eat more of your cap. You trade him for somebody who's decent. Not the best of the best but who won't eat your cap?

Losing Willy is walking away from a player you can win with. Tavares is the one you can't win with, and who we should have walked away from in 2018.

Better to wait a year and a half to get rid of an overpaid $11M contract than to get rid of the one who will still be underpaid if his next contract is $10M.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I dunno how to explain this without using sock puppets at this point.

The cap structure of paying our forwards the bulk of the cap is a failure. We don't need a Nylander. We need a decent forward who is solid but where we can also have defense which is solid. Nylander or any winger at 11 is dumb. It's dumb. Matthews at 13+ is dumb. But we need money to spend on third line centers. On defense and on goal.

Trading a winger who demands 11 is a win regardless if you only get a decent defender back. Freeing up the cap space is necessary. Nylander is not an 11M value player. He just isn't.

If you can't explain it without sock puppets then maybe you don't actually understand it, and should stop trying.

Nylander isn't making 11 - that's Marner. After next year maybe we can get rid of the 11M winger and keep the better and cheaper one. We may also be rid of the 11M 2C (or at least turned him into a 6M 2C). Giving away your second best player just because he might become your fourth highest paid is dumb.

 

[notDatsyuk]

But none of their replacements will be free of charge. If you need better than this years Brodie to win then why would one expect that guy wouldn't cost more than Brodie did in 2020? And do they want to be handcuffed to a budget of less than $3.5M for Sammy's replacement if a legit 1-1a becomes available? Robertson and Lilly and Benoit will get raises and its back to dumpster diving.

When the cap goes up, every team in the league has more money so FAs increase just like its own players. I don't know that Bert and Domi are enough to do it for this club with the current defense and goaltending questions and I don't think their replacements are likely to be signable next year for the same money. I don't see how this team can improve with another $10M+ forward against next years cap. Three are too many, never mind four.

This teams top salaries were negotiated with the expectation the cap would be at least $6M higher by this season where clubs like the Bruins almost completely dodged that bullet.

So you take a 1.5M bite in the bottom 6 this next year for an 11M extra to spend the next.

 

[Stephen]

What money are putting towards defense, third line center or goal? Why the f*** do I want to continue paying Nylander a high percentage of the cap?

Out Klingberg - $4.15 million
Out Brodie - $5 million.

Considering we got no useful hockey out of Klingberg, that's $9.15 million you can spend on the blueline to basically replace one Brodie or add more depth. You telling me you can't an $8 million defenseman and a $1 million defenseman? A $6 million defenseman and a $3 million defenseman? 2x $4.5 million defensemen? 3x $3 million defensemen? One stud defenseman making $9.15 million? There's enough money right here to replace 1/3 of the blueline.

Out Bertuzzi - $5.5 million

In, $5.5 million goalie. That doesn't help find a solid, above average senior partner for Woll?

Out Samsonov $3.5 million
Out Domi $3 million

We can't find another $5 million forward like a Bertuzzi and go Money Puck again on a second forward?

Out David Kampf, $2.4 million

We can't trade Kampf away and source another $1.5 million Money Puck player?

Out Conor Timmins, $1.1 million

Think we're going to miss sleep trying to replace this guy?

That's $24.65 million in good to mediocre mid roster whatever that can be restructured any way you see fit for one year. But you're telling me you have to trade the guy on pace for the third best offensive season in Leaf history.

 

[Rare Jewel]

You break up the Big 4 by getting rid of the weakest link first, not circumstances of contract.

So you essentially say rest this year and next are whatever and burn that time on Matthews contract?

That's not the very proactive way to view it. It would be different if they had shown progress or had something to base the idea of keeping it together on, but there really isn't. In fact, over the last two seasons, they've gotten worse.

The whole idea of moving Nylander now or Marner this summer is not to waste that time and correct what was not tested or sound roster construction from the time Tavares was signed.


The idea is to have a better team, not to have a collection of stars we can be proud of because we had piss poor team the decade before they turned up.

 

[Stephen]

So you essentially say rest this year and next are whatever and burn that time on Matthews contract?

That's not the very proactive way to view it. It would be different if they had shown progress or had something to base the idea of keeping it together on, but there really isn't. In fact, over the last two seasons, they've gotten worse.

The whole idea of moving Nylander now or Marner this summer is not to waste that time and correct what was not tested or sound roster construction from the time Tavares was signed.


The idea is to have a better team, not have a collection of stars we can be proud of because we had piss poor team the decade before they turned up.

We're in second effing place in the Atlantic, what do you mean burn the season?

Who is this unicorn player who is better than Nylander, that is available mid season, on a better contract, maybe a different position, that gets us closer to a Stanley Cup right now?

You tell me it's McDavid, Kucherov, Draisaitl, Makar, McAvoy or something etc. we can drive Willie over to Pearson on Boxing Day.

 

[rumman]

Out Klingberg - $4.15 million
Out Brodie - $5 million.

Considering we got no useful hockey out of Klingberg, that's $9.15 million you can spend on the blueline to basically replace one Brodie or add more depth. You telling me you can't an $8 million defenseman and a $1 million defenseman? A $6 million defenseman and a $3 million defenseman? 2x $4.5 million defensemen? 3x $3 million defensemen? One stud defenseman making $9.15 million? There's enough money right here to replace 1/3 of the blueline.

Out Bertuzzi - $5.5 million

In, $5.5 million goalie. That doesn't help find a solid, above average senior partner for Woll?

Out Samsonov $3.5 million
Out Domi $3 million

We can't find another $5 million forward like a Bertuzzi and go Money Puck again on a second forward?

Out David Kampf, $2.4 million

We can't trade Kampf away and source another $1.5 million Money Puck player?

Out Conor Timmins, $1.1 million

Think we're going to miss sleep trying to replace this guy?

That's $24.65 million in good to mediocre mid roster whatever that can be restructured any way you see fit for one year. But you're telling me you have to trade the guy on pace for the third best offensive season in Leaf history.

Your selling Bertuzzi short, after the playoffs he’ll be too pricy to sign, book it……..

 

[Menzinger]

So you essentially say rest this year and next are whatever and burn that time on Matthews contract?

That's not the very proactive way to view it. It would be different if they had shown progress or had something to base the idea of keeping it together on, but there really isn't. In fact, over the last two seasons, they've gotten worse.

The whole idea of moving Nylander now or Marner this summer is not to waste that time and correct what was not tested or sound roster construction from the time Tavares was signed.


The idea is to have a better team, not have a collection of stars we can be proud of because we had piss poor team the decade before they turned up.

But getting rid of 2 of the big 4 doesn't do anything to prevent that "burn" period; if anything extends it. Moving out Nylander/Marner for picks isnt going to make the team more competitive next season.

Because either the team enters an extended retool phase and wastes Matthews extension as it waits for those picks to develop; or you trust Trelivings ability to spend more on free agency vets as an means of accelerating things. I just don't get why people seem to think this makes the Leafs a stronger team in the short or long run.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Treliving signed the worst contract in NHL salary cap history.

How can Leaf fans trust this buffoon?

 

[Rare Jewel]

We're in second effing place in the Atlantic, what do you mean burn the season?

Who is this unicorn player who is better than Nylander, that is available mid season, on a better contract, maybe a different position, that gets us closer to a Stanley Cup right now?

You tell me it's McDavid, Kucherov, Draisaitl, Makar, McAvoy or something etc. we can drive Willie over to Pearson on Boxing Day.

What does 2nd or 3rd place in the division mean if you're done in the first round?

We've seen this before.

Also, there's a scenario where either Nylander or Marner are moved and perhaps lose the trade on paper but become a more balanced team because of it. I'm not sure if letting 30+ shots a night with half an AHL defence and an inexperienced goalie is the best way to round out a contending roster.

It'll work in the regular season because most of the teams in our division are crap, but when spring comes, it's different.

 

[TMLegend]

Your selling Bertuzzi short, after the playoffs he’ll be too pricy to sign, book it……..

Hopefully, that means the Leaf had a deep run.

 

[Rare Jewel]

But getting rid of 2 of the big 4 doesn't do anything to prevent that "burn" period; if anything extends it. Moving out Nylander/Marner for picks isnt going to make the team more competitive next season.

Because either the team enters an extended retool phase and wastes Matthews extension as it waits for those picks to develop; or you trust Trelivings ability to spend more on free agency vets as an means of accelerating things. I just don't get why people seem to think this makes the Leafs a stronger team in the short or long run.

They wouldn't be moving for picks, though, unless you flip them elsewhere.

But as it pertains to Nylander, because his contract needs renewal first, losing him for nothing if the re-sign cost is too high also does nothing for the "burn" period.

 

[Stephen]

Your selling Bertuzzi short, after the playoffs he’ll be too pricy to sign, book it……..

I'm not expecting to keep him.

 

[Stephen]

But getting rid of 2 of the big 4 doesn't do anything to prevent that "burn" period; if anything extends it. Moving out Nylander/Marner for picks isnt going to make the team more competitive next season.

Because either the team enters an extended retool phase and wastes Matthews extension as it waits for those picks to develop; or you trust Trelivings ability to spend more on free agency vets as an means of accelerating things. I just don't get why people seem to think this makes the Leafs a stronger team in the short or long run.

If this season goes off the rails I can see a sell off involving the UFA guys Treliving brought in. Low commitment level, recoup some assets, whatever...

I don't see a franchise changing blockbuster that brings in an upgrade on Nylander or Marner, is a better contract, solves positional and behavioral need and we're closer to the cup.

 

[arso40]

If you get a d-man for him, the chances of the d-man asking for 11 million a year are very slim. Come on man. Stop being so thick headed


You are walking away from a forward whom you can't win with. Who is requesting to eat more of your cap. You trade him for somebody who's decent. Not the best of the best but who won't eat your cap?

All that does is allow us to spend the cap space on something stupid I rather spend it on nylander I know what I’m getting and I’m more than happy with that too

 

[Drytoast]

Letting him walk is dumb, and so is trading him for picks. Our window will be opening after next season, and the picks won't be ready to contribute until after the Matthews window is closing.

Signing him to 11 just perpetuates our failed cap structure. He's not worth 11.

All that does is allow us to spend the cap space on something stupid I rather spend it on nylander I know what I’m getting and I’m more than happy with that too

Failure. You are getting failure in the post season.

No thanks. Been there done that

 

[arso40]

I dunno how to explain this without using sock puppets at this point.

The cap structure of paying our forwards the bulk of the cap is a failure. We don't need a Nylander. We need a decent forward who is solid but where we can also have defense which is solid. Nylander or any winger at 11 is dumb. It's dumb. Matthews at 13+ is dumb. But we need money to spend on third line centers. On defense and on goal.

Trading a winger who demands 11 is a win regardless if you only get a decent defender back. Freeing up the cap space is necessary. Nylander is not an 11M value player. He just isn't.

How? That would entirely depend on the complete picture your turning nylander into bertuzzi and Brodie 4 years ago you won’t win with that I promise you the fact nylanders a game breaker is where our edge is along with marner matty and rielly

 

[Rare Jewel]

If this season goes off the rails I can see a sell off involving the UFA guys Treliving brought in. Low commitment level, recoup some assets, whatever...

I don't see a franchise changing blockbuster that brings in an upgrade on Nylander or Marner, is a better contract, solves positional and behavioral need and we're closer to the cup.

So, what are your numbers for re-signing Nylander?

 

[therealkoho]

I might as well put it out there that the Leafs should trade Sidney Crosby from Pittsburgh to get some leafs depth. I wonder how many posts it would take to explain to some here why we couldn't do it.

Gonna say what, 3 maybe 4?

 

[therealkoho]

JT has brain damage , he thought it was a good decision to skate into 4 pens

He was trying to show styles how it's done!

 

[Stephen]

So, what are your numbers for re-signing Nylander?

1) The NHL salary cap is projected to rise to $87.7 from $83.5 million. That is $4.2 million in new money.

2) Auston Matthews' raise is $1.6 million, leaving $2.6 million in free, new cap space for William Nylander.

3) That amount means any cap number up to $9.6 million can be given to Willie and we could replicate this year's roster more or less. (Slightly less with rounding but whatever).

4) If Nylander was given $11 million AAV (hope it's less than this), that represents am extra $1.4 million they have find somewhere else.

5) If the cap hadn't gone up and stayed flat and we only gave Nylander the $1.4 million raise from $7 million, he would be making $8.4 million, I think we'd call it a win.

In summary, I don't want to pay Nylander the full $11 million, but most of it is paid for by the cap increase and I'm not letting him walk over $1.5 million in cap carve out, since we'd gladly have signed him to the mid 8's without a cap increase.

Any roster turnover we need to make happen, I'm reallocating Samsonov, Brodie, Kampf, Domi, Bertuzzi, in that order before ever getting to Nylander.

In one year's time, there will be another cap jump which could cover Marner, Tavares' $11 million comes off, and if he wants to come back it's at a massive pay cut.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

I see one of three scenarios playing out:

1. They pay Nylander $10+ long term and we all end up regretting it.
2. He walks as a UFA for nothing.
3, Knowing this team is not a real contender this year and that yet another crippling contract is going to keep this team in pergatory for the foreseeable future, they face the facts and deal him for what they really need (top pairing D or the first real goalie we've seen since Eddi Belfour) and failing that. whatever they can sell him for as a rental at deadline.

 

[Rare Jewel]

1) The NHL salary cap is projected to rise to $87.7 from $83.5 million. That is $4.2 million in new money.

2) Auston Matthews' raise is $1.6 million, leaving $2.6 million in free, new cap space for William Nylander.

3) That amount means any cap number up to $9.6 million can be given to Willie and we could replicate this year's roster more or less. (Slightly less with rounding but whatever).

4) If Nylander was given $11 million AAV (hope it's less than this), that represents am extra $1.4 million they have find somewhere else.

5) If the cap hadn't gone up and stayed flat and we only gave Nylander the $1.4 million raise from $7 million, he would be making $8.4 million, I think we'd call it a win.

In summary, I don't want to pay Nylander the full $11 million, but most of it is paid for by the cap increase and I'm not letting him walk over $1.5 million in cap carve out, since we'd gladly have signed him to the mid 8's without a cap increase.

Any roster turnover we need to make happen, I'm reallocating Samsonov, Brodie, Kampf, Domi, Bertuzzi, in that order before ever getting to Nylander.

In one year's time, there will be another cap jump which could cover Marner, Tavares' $11 million comes off, and if he wants to come back it's at a massive pay cut.

The approach you seemingly have with Nylander now, vs. one with Marner, seems at odds with each other. Do you value him more? If so, why not part with Marner before then rather than letting him go for nothing because he isn't taking a cut.

Again, it's just a poor way to construct a team, IMO. It's too individualistic, like an NBA team. Constantly chopping a changing with very little continuity or quality after the big guys, and still with quite a large hole in the defense in particular.

 

[Stephen]

The approach you seemingly have with Nylander now, vs. one with Marner, seems at odds with each other. Do you value him more? If so, why not part with Marner before then rather than letting him go for nothing because he isn't taking a cut.

Again, it's just a poor way to construct a team, IMO. It's too individualistic, like an NBA team. Constantly chopping a changing with very little continuity or quality after the big guys, and still with quite a large hole in the defense in particular.

I said the next cap jump could cover Marner’s raise, which won’t be as dramatic as Nylander’s anyway, so it’s the same strategy.

Big 4 is automatically being reduced to a Big 3 with the expiry of the Tavares deal so we’re going to be down the one core body/contract as the blood sacrifice demands.