No More Soft Players & Career Losers On The 3rd & 4th Lines

[JT AM da real deal]

Coleman .. Goodrow .. Kuraly .. Spezz at 750k .. Wayner at 750K .. healthy Nash or Foligno at 1M .. Casey at 3.5M .. it would work out for bottom 6 .. we need size and toughness too .. and speed .. most of these guys will get more AAV then we will be able to afford .. need to trade Rielly and Mitch for a reconfiguration to work next year

 

[Donnie740]

Coleman .. Goodrow .. Kuraly .. Spezz at 750k .. Wayner at 750K .. healthy Nash or Foligno at 1M .. Casey at 3.5M .. it would work out for bottom 6 .. we need size and toughness too .. and speed .. most of these guys will get more AAV then we will be able to afford .. need to trade Rielly and Mitch for a reconfiguration to work next year

Mike Foligno would probably sign for $1m but there’s not a chance in hell of getting Nick Foligno at that price.

It makes little to no sense to pay Foligno when he’s clearly at the back end of his career.

Nor does it make much sense to pay top dollar for someone else’s 3rd and 4th liners at their peak coming off a career year year.

 

[Donnie740]

Tampa’s paying Coleman $1.8m and Goodrow $925k. That’s excellent value for the 3rd and 4th lines.

Paying them $3m or $4m is terrible value. Cannot pay top dollar for past performance to guys like that.

Dubas needs to study his spreadsheets and maybe even go through the ratings on NHL21 to find the NEXT Coleman and Goodrow type player that’s currently undervalued.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Goodrow-Engvall-Coleman
Brooks-Spezza-Perry

If we miss on Goodrow, go for Kuraly, we can also look at options, that's the ideal bottom 6 but open to trading Engvall and getting a different 3C, I just don't wanna run it back with the same group.

Tampa’s paying Coleman $1.8m and Goodrow $925k. That’s excellent value for the 3rd and 4th lines.

Paying them $3m or $4m is terrible value. Cannot pay top dollar for past performance to guys like that.

Dubas needs to study his spreadsheets and maybe even go through the ratings on NHL21 to find the NEXT Coleman and Goodrow type player that’s currently undervalued.

2M for Goodrow and 3.5M for Coleman is fine.

Screw the spread sheets, they haven't won a thing.

 

[Dreakmur]

Tampa’s paying Coleman $1.8m and Goodrow $925k. That’s excellent value for the 3rd and 4th lines.

Paying them $3m or $4m is terrible value. Cannot pay top dollar for past performance to guys like that.

Dubas needs to study his spreadsheets and maybe even go through the ratings on NHL21 to find the NEXT Coleman and Goodrow type player that’s currently undervalued.

Quickly going through each team's roster, he's who I came up with as possibly fitting that:

Benoit-Olivier Groulx
Max Jones
Matt Filipe
Matej Pekar
Tage Thompson
Justin Kirkland
Adam Ruzicka
Eetu Tuulola
Jamieson Rees
Jack Drury
Stello Mattheos
Mike Hardman
MacKenzie Entwistle
Reese Johnson
Shane Bowers
Sampo Ranta
Riley Tufte
Oskar Back
Givani Smith
Ryan McLeod
Dylan Holloway
Eetu Luostarinen
Serron Noel
Egor Afanasyev
Grant Mismash
Nolan Foote
Nathan Bastian
Blade Jenkins
Brett Howden
Isaac Ratcliffe
Wade Allison
Drew O'Connor
Sam Poulin
Alexander True
Erik Foley
Ivan Barbashev
Boris Katchouk
Gabriel Fortier
Mitchell Stephens
Keegan Kolesar
Riley Sutter

 

[Jmo89]

Why do people keep saying we needed a few more goals from the bottom 6? How about the guys in the top 6....

We scored 18 goals against Montreal:
Top 6 - 7 goals
Bottom 6 - 6 goals
Defense - 5 goals

Yep. Even with how bad guys like Thornton, Simmonds, and Mikheyev were, the depth largely did its job. The two guys making 11M and the coach are what let the team down.

 

[tmlms13]

At this point it should be obvious the Leafs core - - ie the top two lines - - has no clue how to win in the playoffs.

Which means the leadership and playoff toughness will need to come from the 3rd and 4th lines.

For the love of God, STOP filling those lines with soft players who float on the perimeter like Mikheyev/Engvall/Boyd and lifetime losers like Thornton/Foligno who’ve had a entire career of underachieving playoff chokes.

The 3rd line needs to be a lockdown defensive unit that can always match against any top line and with a C who’s strong on face offs.

Need at least two vets who’ve won a Cup and have big alpha dog personalities so they won’t be afraid to give Matthews or Marner a slap to wake up and tell the coach to FRO when he tries useless ideas.

Need one, but preferably two, guys who play a dirty agitating style that borders on being viscous. Kadri type would be ideal but no competent GM is going to give up a guy like that. Corey Perry type will suffice.

Also need at least one but preferably two guys who enjoy fighting because physical intimidation is one of the surest ways of winning.

This is completely contrary to building a finesse team of small skill players - - which is why the Leafs consistently lose every year in the playoffs.

Maybe I'm missing something but there is only 1 Stanley Cup awarded per year..... the supply of veteran Stanley cup winners who make under 1.0m is not exactly very big

 

[Iapyi]

At this point it should be obvious the Leafs core - - ie the top two lines - - has no clue how to win in the playoffs.

Which means the leadership and playoff toughness will need to come from the 3rd and 4th lines.

For the love of God, STOP filling those lines with soft players who float on the perimeter like Mikheyev/Engvall/Boyd and lifetime losers like Thornton/Foligno who’ve had a entire career of underachieving playoff chokes.

The 3rd line needs to be a lockdown defensive unit that can always match against any top line and with a C who’s strong on face offs.

Need at least two vets who’ve won a Cup and have big alpha dog personalities so they won’t be afraid to give Matthews or Marner a slap to wake up and tell the coach to FRO when he tries useless ideas.

Need one, but preferably two, guys who play a dirty agitating style that borders on being viscous. Kadri type would be ideal but no competent GM is going to give up a guy like that. Corey Perry type will suffice.

Also need at least one but preferably two guys who enjoy fighting because physical intimidation is one of the surest ways of winning.

This is completely contrary to building a finesse team of small skill players - - which is why the Leafs consistently lose every year in the playoffs.

Most certainly. We need some sandpaper on this team.

 

[Iapyi]

“You’re like an expert swimmer who never got in a pool.” - Matt Serra

I heard there are also hockey experts who have never skated or even played the game. [not referring to you but the quote]

 

[Captain Crunch]

WTF is this selective revisionist history?

Or have people just “forgotten” that aside from Spezza the Leafs got absolutely NOTHING from their 3rd and 4th lines in this playoffs?

Kerfoot and Galchenyuk were playing on the 2nd line with Nylander for most of the series. They each scored while they were playing with Nylander - - who carried that line.

Spezza scored one of his three goals after being moved up to the 2nd line with Nylander and Kerfoot during desperation time in Game 6.

Regardless of where he played though, Spezza was dynamite throughout the entire series and definitely deserves a spot on the 3rd/4th line next year.

The rest of the “bottom six” were complete junk.

Thornton’s one goal came on the PP. During 5-on-5 when he was in the “bottom six” he did absolutely NOTHING.

Which is precisely what everyone else in the “bottom six” also did.
Mikheyev - - 7 games of ZERO
Simmonds - - 7 games 1 assist
Engvall - - 6 games 1 assist
Foligno - - 4 games 1 assist
Riley Trash - - 2 games of ZERO
Brooks - - 2 games of ZERO

Let’s not try to fool ourselves into thinking those six names listed above and Thornton contributed anything. Because they didn’t.

All were varying levels of garbage.

Mikheyev really puzzles me. Is there any chance he can return to the type of player he was before he had that wrist laceration? If so, I’d definitely take a flyer in him. If not, he’s useful on the PK and has speed to burn, so keep him on the 4th line. As for Brooks, maybe he’s too small. But if he got to play regularly on the 4th line, I’d at least like to see how that would pan out.
I agree with the other players.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Jeez man you put nothing in words or ideas to refute what he wrote which alot of it under these circumstances with management having confidence going forward keeping this core taking half the cap and just come out and immaturely heave an insult without any formidable explanation as to why you disagree. Wonder who has the lack of a textured brain here

The person I’m quoting who seems to agree with the pre-school take, probably.

 

[ryno23]

look at all the teams left in the playoff their 3rd and 4th lines are all Canadian or American expect the Avs who has Burakovsky on the 3rd line and Bellemare on the 4th. I know this is a take right out of Don Cherry playbook but the Leafs need to fill the bottom 6 with Canadian and American kids who will battle and not back down

Leafs keep bringing the Barabanovs and soft euros to play bottom six and they fail every time. You can get away with say Mikhevev who is fast and can PK but other than that get some guys in there who can play a playoff style game with some offense

Spezza while not physical per se does ramp up his game in the playoffs so he gets a pass.

Stop drafting Euros and get some good North American kids in the later rounds who will fill the voids on the bottom 2 lines.

 

[Donnie740]

look at all the teams left in the playoff their 3rd and 4th lines are all Canadian or American expect the Avs who has Burakovsky on the 3rd line and Bellemare on the 4th. I know this is a take right out of Don Cherry playbook but the Leafs need to fill the bottom 6 with Canadian and American kids who will battle and not back down

Leafs keep bringing the Barabanovs and soft euros to play bottom six and they fail every time. You can get away with say Mikhevev who is fast and can PK but other than that get some guys in there who can play a playoff style game with some offense

Spezza while not physical per se does ramp up his game in the playoffs so he gets a pass.

Stop drafting Euros and get some good North American kids in the later rounds who will fill the voids on the bottom 2 lines.

Not sure who I have more disdain for - - physically soft players who refuse to compete or mentally weak players who crumble under pressure.

Agree with you that North American players as a whole are tougher and more aggressive but there’s definitely some bad-ass Euros.

Scott Stevens is among the gold standard for being a tough physical defenceman but Vlady Konstantinov was every bit as tough and physical as Stevens. Zdeno Chara plays a similar style - - not as skilled at hitting as Stevens but a better fighter. Although Stevens could definitely throw.

A guy like Tomas Kaberle was certainly not a physical defenceman but he NEVER played scared. Morgan Rielly is the same.

Biggest problem for the Leafs is Dubas being so adamant about avoiding physical players.

 

[hullsy47]

That’s correct - - every single Cup winning team gets critical contributions from their bottom six players.

Really have to wonder if some people here ever watch any playoff games after the Leafs are eliminated or if the just base their comments from what they see playing NHL21 video games.

Ya but barzal and Marchand scored too .let's face it mathews and marner were just unacceptably brutal ..
If u told anyone 8n leafs nation Nylander gets 5 goals in round 1 ud be in heaven

 

[hullsy47]

Mike Foligno would probably sign for $1m but there’s not a chance in hell of getting Nick Foligno at that price.

It makes little to no sense to pay Folignwo when he’s clearly at the back end of his career.

Nor does it make much sense to pay top dollar for someone else’s 3rd and 4th liners at their peak coming off a career year year.

What I saw from foligno was a 45 point max
I'd keep Spezza

 

[Arzak]

Coleman .. Goodrow .. Kuraly .. Spezz at 750k .. Wayner at 750K .. healthy Nash or Foligno at 1M .. Casey at 3.5M .. it would work out for bottom 6 .. we need size and toughness too .. and speed .. most of these guys will get more AAV then we will be able to afford .. need to trade Rielly and Mitch for a reconfiguration to work next year

Yeah, you got the 3rd and 4th line making less than Marner money together ...and you expect them to be your playoff warriors.

 

[Nylander88]

Coleman .. Goodrow .. Kuraly .. Spezz at 750k .. Wayner at 750K .. healthy Nash or Foligno at 1M .. Casey at 3.5M .. it would work out for bottom 6 .. we need size and toughness too .. and speed .. most of these guys will get more AAV then we will be able to afford .. need to trade Rielly and Mitch for a reconfiguration to work next year

Love the players you picked. How'd you sign them way below their market value though?lol this is the way I see it:
Foligno: 4mil
Coleman: 3-4 mil
Goodrow: 2-3 mil
Kiraly: 1-1.5mil
Nash: 1mil sounds about right

Love all the guys you mentioned. I'd be open to bringing back Foligno if we lose Hyman. I unfortunately don't think we saw him play without battling injury. Coleman and Goodrow are big time on my wish list, would like to get at least 1. Spezza definitely has to come back. And I'd bring back Simmonds too at 1mil to keep team toughness. I think he's a good emotional leader. Would likely shine through more with a tougher team around him, and fans in the building and to create energy off of his style of play

 

[Stigma]

Quickly going through each team's roster, he's who I came up with as possibly fitting that:

Stello Mattheos
Riley Tufte
Serron Noel
Boris Katchouk

I'd be interested in these four.

Stelio Mattheos - had great performances in junior, but was diagnosed with cancer in 2019 and his numbers dipped a little. I'm sure he's dealing with a lot of mental stress. May need a new setting and more time to get back on track.

Riley Tufte - he has draft pedigree, for sure. Turns out he has stone hands, but he's massive (6'6) and fast. Could be a great 4th liner if he changes his game to play that way (I don't know if he has already).

Serron Noel - a power forward type. Huge (6'5), fast and aggressive. I would probably prefer him out of the bunch. His numbers took a dip 2 years ago, but he did "okay" in the AHL this year (around .5 ppg). Definitely worth a shot.

Boris Katchouk - I think out of this group of 4, he has the highest floor. He is going to be a 4th liner soon enough. I think Tampa is too crowded for him to play. He's also pretty fast and doesn't shy away from hitting.

 

[APV]

Mikheyev, Engvall, Simmonds and Thornton should never play a game for us again.

Robertson will be expected to score from the 3rd line next year probably. As of right now with Hyman unsigned and Kerfoot likely out for cap reasons, your looking at

????? - Matthews - Marner
????? - Tavares - Nylander
Robertson- ????? - ??????
??????? - Brooks - Spezza/Anderson

Thats 5 spots needed to fill. However, I'm not sold that there gonna let Mikheyev and Engvall go, even though they should. Barabanov was way better then either. I expect Filip Hallander will get a chance to be the 3rd Line Centre aswell.

Dubas has his work cut out for him...

This should be the skeleton of the forward group, 100%

The "?????"s should be filled with players with PROVEN PLAYOFF PEDIGREE ONLY. Players that have had memorable performances in their career (preferably multiple memorable playoff performances) .

We need to get away from being regular season superstars and assemble the right pieces that are going to show up big time in the playoffs. It's hard to get those pieces as they are valued by every team, so Dubas has def has work to do.

The defence core I am basically happy with as they have been the most steady D pairings I have seen since before the Kessel era. If they can upgrade sure but I dont believe that needs to be a focus point.

 

[APV]

Glad I’m not the only one here who can recognize how useless Mikheyev and Engvall are.

Both were completely invisible during the playoffs - - it’s embarrassing that anyone would proclaim they had a “fine” performance in the series.

Lol remember when Mikheyev came back from injury in time for the Columbus play-in series and he was lined up with Tavares and Marner to start and we all thought he was going to be sick.

Turned out he was a complete ghost. We gave him the benefit of the doubt given the seriousness of his injury last year but in this years playoff he was even worse so ya, likely hes just not built for playoff hockey.

Fast guy though...

 

[Arthur Morgan]

A proper team fills these 700-800k spots with drafted players on elcs. Unfortunately dubas' draft record is borderline terrible.

This is a joke right?
Dubas has done very well so far in drafting.
Maybe give them some time to develop before you start bashing all of our draft picks.
I understand you are angry but you have no clue what you are talking about
It's because of fans like you that leafs fans get a bad rep

 

[Blanche Blanche]

“You’re like an expert swimmer who never got in a pool.” - Matt Serra

YES.

f*** Dubas

Shanahan is an idiot that got swindled

 

[Blowfish]

Wait till the draft he’ll draft a team for small players again Our general manager pencil pusher Is the definition of stupid when you do the same thing over and over and over and over and expecting different results don’t get it and go back and do it again aren’t you supposed to learn by mistakes apparently not when your the general manager of the make believes All you have to do is keep lying to your Fanbase like throwing something to the wall and see if it sticks there can’t possibly be that many brain dead fans wake up and smell the coffee

What about 1st and 2nd lines?

 

[A1LeafNation]

I don't get this thread. Ppl think the bottom 6 was the problem this year?

 

[Nylander88]

Watched the Lightning/Canes game last night. Came away very impressed with Goodrow. Big and physical are things I already knew about. But his speed surprised me. And the fact he not only kills penalties, but takes faceoffs on the PK. Bonus cherry on top, he's a Toronto boy. I would love to get him. Great 3rd liner, and the way we line up, he could be a great Hyman type for one of the top two forward duos. Definitely a guy I hope we at least kick tires on