No More Soft Players & Career Losers On The 3rd & 4th Lines

[sxvnert]

NYI are a likable band of plumbers with some decent talent. Built to win in the playoffs but not strong enough to win it all.

Losing lee was a huge blow to their roster.

 

[BlueForever75]

If we look at the last 2 seasons and the playoff exits we simply got beat because our top line was shutout and we were beat by great goalie performances.

I cannot put the blame on the bottom 6 or even our D or goalies for that matter.

To me it comes down to how our top players react to more attention and the passion needed in the playoffs. If Matthews and Marner cannot shoulder the load the switch needs to happen immediately. It was evident this playoffs that our 2nd through 4 lines were producing more offence then the top line.

If thats the case give who is producing more ice time. Against Montreal Nylander was on fire but coaching prevented him from getting the ice time he deserved. More ice time doesnt mean putting him with struggling players like Marner and Matthews. It means give his line more playing time, which in most cases dominated the play when they were on the ice.

 

[Donnie740]

A proper team fills these 700-800k spots with drafted players on elcs. Unfortunately dubas' draft record is borderline terrible.

Difficult to draft talented players when you give all your picks away.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

A proper team fills these 700-800k spots with drafted players on elcs. Unfortunately dubas' draft record is borderline terrible.

If you're going to criticize Dubas at least pick the right reasons and the draft isn't one of them.

Dubas has been the GM for 3 drafts and drafted players simply take time to develop.

 

[Donnie740]

These aren't the guys that carry you in playoffs. Sure we would like more points here, but Nylander was the only top 6 guy doing anything

Since it appears the Three Stooges are intent on sticking with the big 4, the focus needs to be on the 3rd and 4th lines.

And given the lack of cap space or quality young talent/draft picks, 3rd and 4th line help is really the only thing the Leafs can afford to acquire.

Having a 3rd line that can be counted on to match up and lockdown an opponent’s top line is a basic roster building 101.

Does anyone want to insist there’s no place for a shutdown checking line in today’s analytics based hockey?

It’s certainly not glamorous, but it’s how you win in the playoffs.

 

[egd27]

If we look at the last 2 seasons and the playoff exits we simply got beat because our top line was shutout and we were beat by great goalie performances.

Maybe trying some different when your top line is being effectively shut down could be something a qualified NHL coach might do?

Nah, that might take an ounce of imagination.

 

[TheScandal89]

Mikheyev, Engvall, Simmonds and Thornton should never play a game for us again.

Robertson will be expected to score from the 3rd line next year probably. As of right now with Hyman unsigned and Kerfoot likely out for cap reasons, your looking at

????? - Matthews - Marner
????? - Tavares - Nylander
Robertson- ????? - ??????
??????? - Brooks - Spezza/Anderson

Thats 5 spots needed to fill. However, I'm not sold that there gonna let Mikheyev and Engvall go, even though they should. Barabanov was way better then either. I expect Filip Hallander will get a chance to be the 3rd Line Centre aswell.

Dubas has his work cut out for him...

 

[Donnie740]

Mikheyev, Engvall, Simmonds and Thornton should never play a game for us again.

I give Simmonds credit for at least being willing to fight, but agree that he needs to be upgraded.

Anyone with the slightest understanding of hockey would have to acknowledge the other three provide absolutely NOTHING.

So that’s 4 out of 6 spots on the 3rd and 4th line that need to be replaced.

Doesn’t quite fit the narrative about “the bottom six are fine.”

 

[Clark4Ever]

At this point it should be obvious the Leafs core - - ie the top two lines - - has no clue how to win in the playoffs.

Which means the leadership and playoff toughness will need to come from the 3rd and 4th lines.

For the love of God, STOP filling those lines with soft players who float on the perimeter like Mikheyev/Engvall/Boyd and lifetime losers like Thornton/Foligno who’ve had a entire career of underachieving playoff chokes.

The 3rd line needs to be a lockdown defensive unit that can always match against any top line and with a C who’s strong on face offs.

Need at least two vets who’ve won a Cup and have big alpha dog personalities so they won’t be afraid to give Matthews or Marner a slap to wake up and tell the coach to FRO when he tries useless ideas.

Need one, but preferably two, guys who play a dirty agitating style that borders on being viscous. Kadri type would be ideal but no competent GM is going to give up a guy like that. Corey Perry type will suffice.

Also need at least one but preferably two guys who enjoy fighting because physical intimidation is one of the surest ways of winning.

This is completely contrary to building a finesse team of small skill players - - which is why the Leafs consistently lose every year in the playoffs.

Great idea, but we won't have the available cap space to sign the calibre of players you alluded to, unless they are way past their prime.

 

[The Masters]

Mikheyev, Engvall, Simmonds and Thornton should never play a game for us again.

Robertson will be expected to score from the 3rd line next year probably. As of right now with Hyman unsigned and Kerfoot likely out for cap reasons, your looking at

????? - Matthews - Marner
????? - Tavares - Nylander
Robertson- ????? - ??????
??????? - Brooks - Spezza/Anderson

Thats 5 spots needed to fill. However, I'm not sold that there gonna let Mikheyev and Engvall go, even though they should. Barabanov was way better then either. I expect Filip Hallander will get a chance to be the 3rd Line Centre aswell.

Dubas has his work cut out for him...

100% agree.
Simmonds and thronton for sure. Old and slow.
Mikeyeve doesnt do anything out there and is a negative by never converting on anything. Engvall they will likely keep just cuz but i agree get rid of them all.

 

[Dreakmur]

Mikheyev, Engvall, Simmonds and Thornton should never play a game for us again.

Thornton and Simmonds just don't get resigned.

Sounds like Edmonton wants to get rid of Josh Archibald, so maybe we can swap them Ilya Mikheyev.

Engvall can be swapped for another 4th liner who fits better... Christian Fischer, Eric Robinson, Yakov Trenin, Tyler Motte, Ivan Barbashev....etc

I expect Filip Hallander will get a chance to be the 3rd Line Centre aswell.

That would be horrifying....

There's one UFA that fits exactly what we need for that 3rd line centre slot - Casey Cizikas. Dubas better make a hard run at him.

 

[hamzarocks]

In 6 years we can target Couture at the young age of 38, bring home the good old GTA boys.

 

[Nylander88]

Mikheyev and Engvall have to go. Fast guys, good on the PK...not good for much else. Can't have guys in the bottom six that play soft and don't produce points. You have to do one or the other. I would have rather had Scott Sabourin in our lineup than a few of the players we iced

 

[stickty111]

Last year, these are the same players fans wanted, and now they are career losers?
Maybe these are fans admiting they were wrong about the grit players.

 

[Nylander88]

I'd certainly be interested in a guy like Kurtis Gabriel if Simmonds isn't brought back

 

[Cobra777]

There’s so much wrong with this, and that’s before we get to how lame it is that you think anyone reads this whole thing through, and still thinks they’re replying to somebody with a textured brain

Jeez man you put nothing in words or ideas to refute what he wrote which alot of it under these circumstances with management having confidence going forward keeping this core taking half the cap and just come out and immaturely heave an insult without any formidable explanation as to why you disagree. Wonder who has the lack of a textured brain here

 

[Donnie740]

In 6 years we can target Couture at the young age of 38, bring home the good old GTA boys.

And Couture comes with the added bonus of being part of the SJ playoff chokers decade long run of underachievement.

He can carry on the tradition that Marleau and Joe Thornton brought to Toronto.

Which was absolutely nothing except a loser mentality.

 

[keonsbitterness]

And Couture comes with the added bonus of being part of the SJ playoff chokers decade long run of underachievement.

He can carry on the tradition that Marleau and Joe Thornton brought to Toronto.

Which was absolutely nothing except a loser mentality.

In fairness to Couture, I think he's the best playoff performer of the three.

 

[Donnie740]

Last year, these are the same players fans wanted, and now they are career losers?
Maybe these are fans admiting they were wrong about the grit players.

Let’s be honest, Joe Thornton doesn’t have an ounce of grit - - unless you’re talking about the grit and grime in his raggedy-ass beard.

And Foligno was damaged goods whenDubas decided to pay full price for him. Hard to provide any “grit” when you’re a cripple sitting in the press box.

Guys like Thornton and Foligno didn’t suddenly become lifetime losers this year - - they’ve been losers for their entire careers.

WTF kind of “leadership” do you expect Thornton o provide when he was part of a SJ team that choked EVERY year in the playoffs?

Same thing with Foligno. Consistent 1st round loser in Ottawa and continued that in Columbus. The guy has ONE (1) year where he advanced beyond the 1st round.

 

[Trapper]

Let’s be honest, Joe Thornton doesn’t have an ounce of grit - - unless you’re talking about the grit and grime in his raggedy-ass beard.

And Foligno was damaged goods whenDubas decided to pay full price for him. Hard to provide any “grit” when you’re a cripple sitting in the press box.

Guys like Thornton and Foligno didn’t suddenly become lifetime losers this year - - they’ve been losers for their entire careers.

WTF kind of “leadership” do you expect Thornton o provide when he was part of a SJ team that choked EVERY year in the playoffs?

Same thing with Foligno. Consistent 1st round loser in Ottawa and continued that in Columbus. The guy has ONE (1) year where he advanced beyond the 1st round.

But let’s be real. Bringing in a couple of guys for “grit” doesn’t solve the problem when the guys driving the bus don’t have it.

You can’t build 2/3 identities in your team.
You get 1 Hyman on a soft team or a Simmonds on the 4th. The leaders are going to set the identity. It filters down. That’s why people start asking why did player x stop hitting or whatever.
You conform to the leaders.

 

[Donnie740]

Mikheyev and Engvall have to go. Fast guys, good on the PK...not good for much else. Can't have guys in the bottom six that play soft and don't produce points. You have to do one or the other. I would have rather had Scott Sabourin in our lineup than a few of the players we iced

Agree 100% - - Mykheyev and Engvall are worthless trash hockey players.

The Leafs desperately need some winners. I can’t stress this enough. They need guys who’ve won a Cup and understand what it takes - - and they can’t be afraid to tell the young players on the 1st and 2nd lines what they need to do in order to win.

Guys on the 3rd and 4th line need to do at least ONE THING very well.

Maybe they kill penalties very well...maybe they agitate opponents and stir up shit very well ...maybe they win face offs very well....maybe they play the role of a lock down defensive forward...maybe they hit and intimidate very well.

Can’t waste a half dozen roster spots on a bunch of Spanky TryHard types just out there taking up space and going for a skate.

Way too many of those types already in Toronto.

 

[gamer1035]

Let's just fire dubas and try to salvage the talent on our team.

 

[Dreakmur]

Last year, these are the same players fans wanted, and now they are career losers?
Maybe these are fans admiting they were wrong about the grit players.

Nobody should have wanted Thornton. Simmonds was a gamble, but Bogosian was an obvious great signing at the time.

 

[Nylander88]

But let’s be real. Bringing in a couple of guys for “grit” doesn’t solve the problem when the guys driving the bus don’t have it.

You can’t build 2/3 identities in your team.
You get 1 Hyman on a soft team or a Simmonds on the 4th. The leaders are going to set the identity. It filters down. That’s why people start asking why did player x stop hitting or whatever.
You conform to the leaders.

Very true unfortunately. Looking at teams in the second round like the Islanders or even the Canadiens....nowhere near the top end talent that we have. But it seems from top to bottom everyone works hard. It's a team. When we add grit guys, they seem to lose that bite. The Simmonds we saw this year, I think would look a lot different on a team like Boston for instance. Tough guys and grit guys seem to slack off a little more here. And I definitely think it's cuz they follow the lead of the big money players. Bergeron, Marchand, Pastrnak... They all hit, they all play hard. It's a trickle down effect that we lack big time. Matthews started throwing the body more, to his credit.

 

[Trapper]

Very true unfortunately. Looking at teams in the second round like the Islanders or even the Canadiens....nowhere near the top end talent that we have. But it seems from top to bottom everyone works hard. It's a team. When we add grit guys, they seem to lose that bite. The Simmonds we saw this year, I think would look a lot different on a team like Boston for instance. Tough guys and grit guys seem to slack off a little more here. And I definitely think it's cuz they follow the lead of the big money players. Bergeron, Marchand, Pastrnak... They all hit, they all play hard. It's a trickle down effect that we lack big time. Matthews started throwing the body more, to his credit.

Exactly. Your core dictates the identity and our coach/GM cater to the core.